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mackerel

(4,412 posts)
5. Look how red and puffy his face is! The side effects of excessive
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 07:48 PM
Oct 2014

animal intake. Explains his poor decisions.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
6. I hope he understands that when the Founding Fathers talked about religious freedom,
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:27 PM
Oct 2014

it did not mean that they liked Catholicism. I hope he has read the correspondence between Adams and Jefferson on Catholicism -- on the papist religion.

Scalia is such a phony it isn't funny.

His theory of interpreting according to original intent seems to ignore the fact that most of America was founded and developed by Protestants.

Finke and Starke used a statistical manipulation of the official census data after 1850, and Atlas for 1776, to estimate the number of Americans who were are were adherents to a specific denomination. In 1776 their estimate is 17%. In the late 19th century, 1850-1890, the rate increased from 34% to 45%. From 1906 to 1952, the rate grew from 51% to 59%.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_religious_demographics_of_the_United_States



1905 Pamphlet
Courtesy Center for Migration
Studies, New York

The story of Roman Catholicism in the nineteenth century IS the story of immigration. Until about 1845, the Roman Catholic population of the United States was a small minority of mostly English Catholics, who were often quite socially accomplished. But when several years of devastating potato famine led millions of Irish Catholics to flee to the United States in the mid 1840s, the face of American Catholicism began to change drastically and permanently. In the space of fifty years, the Catholic population in the United States suddenly transformed from a tight-knit group of landowning, educated aristocrats into an incredibly diverse mass of urban and rural immigrants who came from many different countries, spoke different languages, held different social statuses, and emphasized different parts of their Catholic heritage.

Many members of other faiths—Jews, Protestants, and even some Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists—arrived in the successive waves of massive immigration to the United States between the 1840s and 1920s. But Catholics from various countries were the most numerous—and the most noticed. In 1850 Catholics made up only five percent of the total U.S. population. By 1906, they made up seventeen percent of the total population (14 million out of 82 million people)—and constituted the single largest religious denomination in the country.

When your students hear the enormity of the demographic and religious shift caused by immigration, they will start to understand why so many American citizens became uneasy about the so-called "Catholic hordes." Change is always difficult, and this was a huge change. Why did things change? Why did so many Catholics come to the United States at this time? Why did the country take them? To answer these questions, you might paint for your students a scene or two of the broad Western-hemisphere trend towards economic and social "modernization." The newly centralized states of Europe and the New World were promoting capital investment in urban industries that disturbed ancient customs of farming, craft labor, and land inheritance. A new managerial "middle class" of clerks and bureaucrats was prospering in the cities, but thousands of peasants were displaced from their land and labor by new farming techniques. The Catholic citizens of Italy, Poland, parts of Germany, and the Eastern European kingdoms of what are now Slovakia and the Czech Repuclic began to cast their eyes towards America. The country had a growing world reputation for democratic ideals and work opportunity. For these peoples, as well as for French Canadian Catholics to the north of the United States and Mexican Catholics to the south, the chance for a new life free of poverty and oppression was too good to pass up. Millions of sons, fathers, and later whole families left behind their former lives and possessions and boarded crowded ships sailing for New York.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/nromcath.htm

Catholicism was not a popular or common religion at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers were no doubt aware of the horrible wars of religion and the persecution of minority religions in Europe prior to the founding of our country.

Scalia should be careful about expressing his intolerance of those who do not identify with a religion. Americans have not always been as religious as many of us are today. We have always had our share of skeptics. It's healthy.




olegramps

(8,200 posts)
13. He is the epitome of why life time appointments are a disaster.
Wed Oct 8, 2014, 10:58 AM
Oct 2014

The greatest threat to the survival of the Republic is today's Republican Party. If left to achieve their objectives the Republic will succumb to being a fascist oligarchical theocracy. The radical Republicans and their cadre of nincompoops have launched a highly successful campaign starting with the taking over local governments beginning with school boards by appealing to the fundamentalists' opposition to liberal educational values and expanding their base to take over local and state government. They have essentially destroyed the middle class with a propaganda campaign to discredit labor unions that gave a voice to the working class. They are well on their way to destroying teacher unions which are one the last bulwarks for dissemination of progressive principles. Their survival of the fittest philosophy has become the crucial tenant of Republican Party that insulates them from any duty to assist the disadvantaged. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to their Ayn Rand insanity can be dispatched without any remorse as lazy useless garbage. Their call for smaller government is in reality a policy for the elimination of every facet of the programs designed to assist the working class ranging from unemployment insurance to social security and medical services. While the working class slept the zealots have been allowed to consolidate their power and crush the liberals.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
14. True.
Wed Oct 8, 2014, 12:38 PM
Oct 2014

My point of course is that Catholics were anathema to most of the Founding Fathers. If Scalia really wanted to interpret the Constitution incorporating the values of the time in which it was written, he would recuse himself from the Court because no Catholics could have been appointed.

The first Catholic was appointed in

The demographics of the Supreme Court of the United States encompass the gender, ethnicity, and religious, geographic, and economic backgrounds of the 112 justices appointed to the Supreme Court. Certain of these characteristics have been raised as an issue since the Court was established in 1789. For its first 180 years, justices were almost always white male Protestants.[1] Prior to the 20th century, a few Roman Catholics were appointed, but concerns about diversity of the Court were mainly in terms of geographic diversity, to represent all geographic regions of the country, as opposed to ethnic, religious, or gender diversity.[2] The 20th century saw the first appointment of a Jewish justice (Louis Brandeis, 1916), an African-American (Thurgood Marshall, 1967), an Italian-American (Antonin Scalia, 1986), and a woman (Sandra Day O'Connor, 1981). The 21st century saw the first appointment of a Hispanic justice (Sonia Sotomayor, 2009; if Benjamin Cardozo, 1932, is excluded).

. . . .

When the Supreme Court was established in 1789, the first members came from among the ranks of the Founding Fathers and were almost uniformly Protestant. Of the 112 justices who have been appointed to the court, 91 have been from various Protestant denominations, 12 have been Catholics (one other Justice, Sherman Minton, converted to Catholicism after leaving the Court), eight have been Jewish and one, David Davis, had no known religious affiliation. Three of the 17 chief justices have been Catholics, and one Jewish Justice, Abe Fortas, was unsuccessfully nominated to be Chief Justice.

. . . . .

The first Roman Catholic Justice, Roger B. Taney, was appointed Chief Justice in 1836 by Andrew Jackson. The second, Edward Douglass White, was appointed as an Associate Justice in 1894, but also went on to become Chief Justice. Joseph McKenna was appointed in 1898, placing two Catholics on the Court until White's death in 1921. This period marked the beginning of an inconsistently observed "tradition" of having a "Catholic seat" on the court.[70]
. . . .

Most Supreme Court justices have been from various Protestant denominations, and these have included 33 Episcopalians, 18 Presbyterians, nine Unitarians, five Methodists, three Baptists, and lone representatives of various other denominations.[67] William Rehnquist was the Court's only Lutheran; Noah Swayne was a Quaker. Some 15 Protestant justices did not adhere to a particular denomination. Notably, the Baptist church and other evangelical churches have been underrepresented on the Court, relative to the population of the United States. Conversely, so-called mainline Protestant churches historically were overrepresented.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

Early America was, in so far as religion is concerned, not entirely but mostly a Protestant creation. And our national values until very recently strongly reflected those Protestant values.

Scalia is treading on very uncertain ground when he talks about the religious nature of the country. And then there is the problem of defining "religion." Are Tibetan monks religious? How about the Hindu religion? Buddhism does not necessarily require that a "believer" accept the concept of God. And then we get to the even bigger question: Does religion just encompass traditional churches? Do you have to have an affiliation with a church or synagogue or established, self-described "religious" organization to be religious? And why wouldn't not believing in God be recognized as a religion for the purposes of the Constitution?

The First Amendment says

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment

"no law respecting an establishment of religion" seems pretty clear to me that our government is not supposed to do anything that prefers or promotes religion at all. That would mean to me that the government should neither favor nor disfavor the idea of religion in its activities. That's not the way the Supreme Court has consistently interpreted that phrase. I would say the Supreme Court has been inconsistent in its interpretation of the phrase. In Hobby Lobby it allowed itself to take a side based on the religious views of Hobby Lobby. Since Hobby Lobby had a sincere religious belief, it was allowed to have its way. I'm oversimplifying, but that was a consideration. That is a very, very bad direction.

The Catholic Church has, historically been extremely authoritarian and was a primary support for the very anti-democratic idea of the Divine Right of Kings. It is not a good sign that so many of our current Supreme Court justices are Catholic and that with the exception of Clarence Thomas a convert from the Catholic Church to a fundamentalist Protestant church, we have no Protestants on the Court. That does not come close to representing our demographics as a nation. And the Catholic Church's teachings are not entirely compatible with the beliefs of our Founding Fathers or with our Bill of Rights when it comes to religion in my opinion. We have a problem here. I am a Unitarian, but I think that the number of Catholics on our Supreme Court is a problem. If I were a member of a major Protestant religion, I would be talking about this. Too few women, and too few Protestants on that court. It's a problem in my view.

Edited because I originally copied the wrong paragraph from Wikipedia.

EEO

(1,620 posts)
8. This is the man who handed George W. Bush the presidency in 2000.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:59 PM
Oct 2014

And a bunch of other assholes in black robes helped.

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
9. Scalia believes that the Constitution is a dead document, delivered by his own personal god. Alas,
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 11:14 PM
Oct 2014
Hobby Lobby

and

Citizens United



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