Russian Orthodox Church organises against Pussy Riot punks

[Lars77]

Church + state = oppression. People are so stupid.


Still, have to hand it to the girls. They know how to pick a name.

[fascisthunter]

1. I was Born into this Religion

Take the fucking kerchiefs off! It'll be ok... oh, no it won't. Because the men are abusive to women who don't obey!

[SunSeeker]

4. Me too. But mom warned us that the priests were hypocrites, like in all religions.

She made sure we were all baptized, but we hardly ever went to church. She set up a little "home church" in our house with a candle and a crucifix. That's where we prayed, safe from predator priests,their hate-filled sermons, and that whole kerchief-wearing requirement for women when in church, the Christian version of the hijab.

[whathehell]

6. You mention that

the kerchief wearing requirement for women in church is the "Christian version of the hijab".

I would have to disagree.

Even men of the Jewish faith wear yarmulkes on their heads

during religious services..

The kerchiefs on women's heads are worn only in a church service;

They are NOT, like the hijab, required to be worn EVERYWHERE,

and every day, outside of the home.

[SunSeeker]

8. Same idea as the hijab: cover your shameful womanly heads.

Of course the hijab rules are more extreme, requiring they be worn everywhere outside the home (rather than just at church with the kerchief), but same mentality, IMO. And a lot of the old babas wear them all the time, just out of custom, like the women in the OP picture. Although you don't have to wear the kerchief everywhere, it's still a requirement that has no counterpart for men in Christianity.

I'm not sure what your point re yarmulkes is, since I was talking about Christianity, but yarmulkes hardly cover anything up anyway. And I am no expert on judaism, but I have known women in certain ultra-orthodox Jewish sects who were required to hide their natural hair and had to wear wigs or full kerchiefs all the time--not just a small piece of round cloth bobby-pinned to the tops of their heads like the men.

[whathehell]

10. I'm not sure I agree...Otherwise men would be

covering their "shameful" manly heads in synagogue however small a part of the head is covered.

No, there's no counterpart in Christianity for men, but Christianity does comes out of Judaism.

I guess I'm not sure why you are trying to compare Women in Christianity

with Women in Islam.

[SunSeeker]

14. All three of those religions subjugate women. nt

[whathehell]

15. Do you know of any religion -- or society -- that does not subjugate women?

to one degree or another?

[SunSeeker]

16. I wish I did. nt

[whathehell]

19. Right...

There's a reason John Lennon wrote the song

"Woman is the Nigger of the World".

[Lars77]

17. Communism? At least in theory. n/t

[whathehell]

18. "In theory", would be the operative phrase.

When you check on the REAL lives of soviet women,

you get the true picture....Women got the chance to

work in the professions -- and then come home, make dinner, clean house,

and take care of the shopping and child care with very little help from husbands.

In addition, wife beating continues to be VERY common in Russia and much of Eastern Europe,

so, sorry, no sale.

[Lars77]

21. Fair enough since you were asking for a religion or society

I was thinking more of a political system so i didnt really answer your question.

You say yourself that the oppression of women is common in Russia and Eastern Europe and you are right, but not due to communism of course.

[whathehell]

22. Yeah, well..

"Not due to communism, of course",

No, but in spite of it, it seems...One could say the

same of many religions and philosophies. Many of them

sound good on paper.....How they play out in reality,

for most, at least, is another story entirely.

[knitter4democracy]

37. Not really. I can see where you're getting that, but it's not quite right.

If that were true, then why does the priest cover his head during most of the liturgy as well? It's about respecting the holiness of the place and preparing for prayer (a kerchief or shawl does wonders in shutting out the rest of the world so I can prepare for Holy Communion).

[SunSeeker]

41. Then why no covering for men?

I don't know what the priests wear at your church, but the Orthodox priests I've seen wear the fancy hats to show status, not to cover their shame. The lay people are another story. Why is it that men do not need to "show respect" by wearing a shawl/covering at your church?

[knitter4democracy]

42. Short answer: tradition.

It's tradition for men to remove head coverings when in a holy place (tradition is more than just our church and/or culture--quite pervasive throughout many cultures) to show respect and for women to cover their heads (usually with fancy coverings involving lots of work).

I've always thought it was more about how a man's head covering often shows his status, which means he'd be competing with the priest and the other men, and that such behavior in women is okay for some reason.

The hat the priest wears isn't about status (especially since they tend to wear certain ones only during liturgy and nowhere else) as much as it is about the meaning behind the hat and preparing for prayer. He removes it for Holy Communion, just like the other men do, only to put it back on afterward.

I personally always like how women use their headscarves as a way to express their individuality as well. We wear ones that match our outfits, are lacy or embroidered as we prefer, and show our own personal preferences. In my church, it's entirely choice on whether to wear one or not, so even just wearing one is an expression of a woman's individuality.

[Cleita]

24. Actually, it's very much like the hijab. When I was in Catholic school we were

told, the reason you wore hats, scarfs or veils to church was to cover your hair so it wouldn't distract the men. Yep, right out of Sister's mouth.

[whathehell]

26. I don't think so. I went to Catholic School for twelve years

and never heard anything like that....I expect that was just one nun's "guess".

In any case, the fact that the practice entailed wearing "something",

however flimsly, on the head for a forty minute religious service,

rather than being obligatory outside garb, every day

undermines whatever trace of "original" connection there might be.

While I appreciate the obvious, if not entirely explicable desire to equate Catholicism

with Islam, it doesn't hold much water.

Orthodox Jewish practices (which STILL requires head coverings

for women AND men) are more similar to Islam

and, historically, that connection makes a lot more sense.

[Cleita]

27. She quoted something from St. Paul. Don't ask me which epistle. I'm too lazy to look it up. n/t

[whathehell]

30. Never heard of it,

and if you are, as you say, "too lazy to look it up"

You must excuse us from accepting it at face value.

[Cleita]

31. Don't accept it. It's something that's really not important for me to look up

and Catholic school, for me, was such an eternity away. I did have to go to church recently though for a funeral and it seems the women don't cover their heads anymore anyway.

[whathehell]

34. I don't and no, women don't cover their heads anymore in church.

St. Paul said a lot of things..They didn't necessarily become church law.

[Jack Rabbit]

2. Seven years for protesting the Orthodox Church's support for Putin

It sounds like a kinder, gentler Spanish inquisition, doesn't it?

[Joe Shlabotnik]

9. 7 years for "hooliganism"

Christ, they'd lock me up and throw away the key! Seriously though, its got nothing to to with 'hooliganism', it is all about maintaining authoritarian control, and being good worker-drones. My Grandmother grew up there under Stalin, and she was taught to fear and obey both the state and also the church. That grooming never left her.

[Confusious]

11. Was there a church under Stailin?

I thought they did away with that, communism and all.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

12. Officially and rhetorically it was gone, but in reality

it just went underground. In the big cities the church's property was seized, but often remained open to the public, and priests learned to keep a lid on it. In rural many areas (where my grandmother was from) not much changed, just the level of fear ratcheted up. The soviets knew that they'd never route out religion, especially for it's agrarian citizens who were not much better or worse off then before the revolution.

[knitter4democracy]

38. Stalin brought back the patriarch, actually.

It helped to control the masses. That, and the purges were starting to turn people against him.

[Jack Rabbit]

13. Authoritarian control

It seems to be something that some people believe is fashionable nowadays. Not being one of those, it bothers me.

It reminds one a little bit of what that eminent critic of Russian society and culture, Fyodor Dosteyevsky, wrote about in the story of the Grand Inquisitor embedded in The Brothers Karamazov. Dostoyevsky may have been using the Roman Catholic Church as a stand in for the Russian Orthodox Church. In any case, for those not familiar with the story, the Grand Inquisitor condemns a stranger to death, knowing full well that the stranger is Christ returned to earth. He tells Christ that is it necessary to kill him all over again if the Church is to maintain its authority. Authority, not Christ, is what is tantamount.

So, authority goes unquestioned because if it is challenged, then it is no authority. The Church backs Putin, who rigs elections and murders his opponents the way it once backed the Romanovs, who plunged the nation into unnecessary wars, freed surfs only belatedly and winked at pogroms.

[knitter4democracy]

3. Patriarch Kyril is no Alexii, that's for sure.

He came up through the ranks, and frankly, I've not heard good things about him in church (we go to a Russian Orthodox church here in Battle Creek). When the bishop came, I was shocked by his language in his sermon (that his translator cleaned up quite a bit) on how we have to stand up against Islam and losing people from the faith. I am reminded, yet again, that most of the best saints in our faith have historically ignored and/or stood up to those in power, even those in power in the Church.

[RZM]

5. Kirill has also been accused of being in bed with the KGB during Soviet days

Though to be fair, a lot of the church hierarchy was as well. Many not entirely willingly, I'm sure.

Still, I'm not aware of such accusations against Alexei. Alexei seemed a pretty genuine man of the faith, with his primary loyalties to the church and people. Kirill is probably very loyal to the church, but he seems to be quite the backer of the Putin clique as well.

[knitter4democracy]

35. That's what I'd heard about Patriarch Kyril.

There's going along to stay safe but making sure to put faith first, and then there's being a KGB patsy and shill.

Patriarch Alexei was a good leader for our church. We miss him.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

25. Patriarch Kyri,I think he's into bling!

[knitter4democracy]

36. We're Orthodox. We all are.

It's part of the faith, beauty and making earth appear to be heaven.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

39. Russia's patriarch admits bling watch cover-up!

Patriarch Kirill's watch has been a subject of controversy ever since he wore it on a visit to Ukraine in 2009. Perceptive observers identified the model as a Breguet, which costs about 30,000 euros.

I think he sold his soul for a watch!

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/photo-of-the-day-slideshow-slideshow/patriarch-kirills-watch-subject-controversy-ever-since-wore-photo-004828856.html

[knitter4democracy]

40. I'd have to agree.

The watch is insane for him to own with so many believers starving and suffering and so many churches still needing to be rebuilt and fixed up.

St. Nicholas would smack him upside the head for the watch. Vestments are one thing; the watch is another.

[Dawson Leery]

7. A K/R for "Church + State = Oppression".

[FraDon]

20. whaddyatalk: a k/r for the OP title!

n/t

[whathehell]

23. For the word "pussy"?...It puts a nice, sexist "spin" on things?

How "progressive" of you.

[seabeyond]

28. Eternal boyhood is the dream of a depressing percentage of American males, and the locker room is th

"Eternal boyhood is the dream of a depressing percentage of American males, and the locker room is the temple where they worship arrested development" Russell Baker

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002599523#post4

i stole it from another post today

[whathehell]

29. Touche!

I like that one...Thanks for the link!

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Or as I like to call them, "cupcakes".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=597331

[Warren DeMontague]

32. The Church is right, the fornicating punks should keep their pants on

they're hurting harming harming hurting with their nasty language and monkey-like rutting, and Jesus cries along with Andrea Dworkin every time the world is forced to suffer a naked boob.