Mike Malloy - Chris Kyle Was No Hero, But A Goddamn Mass Murderer

[hschulein]

Chris Kyle, a US navy Seal from Texas, was deployed to Iraq in 2003 and claimed to have killed more than 255 people during his six-year military career. In his memoir, Kyle reportedly described killing as “fun”, something he “loved”; he was unwavering in his belief that everyone he shot was a “bad guy”. “I hate the damn savages,” he wrote. “I couldn’t give a flying fuck about the Iraqis.” He bragged about murdering looters during Hurricane Katrina, though that was never substantiated.

He was murdered in 2013 at a Texas gun range by a 25-year-old veteran reportedly suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

Full story: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/06/real-american-sniper-hate-filled-killer-why-patriots-calling-hero-chris-kyle

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Regards.

HERNAN
BUENOS AIRES
ARGENTINA

[braddy]

1. During the Vietnam War, Hathcock had 93 confirmed kills of North Vietnamese Army (NVA) and Viet-Cong

personnel. During the Vietnam War, kills had to be confirmed by an acting third party, who had to be an officer, besides the sniper's spotter. Snipers often did not have an acting third party present, making confirmation difficult, especially if the target was behind enemy lines, as was usually the case.
Hathcock himself estimated that he had killed 300 or more enemy personnel during his time in Vietnam.

"Charles Benjamin "Chuck" Mawhinney (born 1949) is an Oregon-born American who served in the United States Marine Corps as a sniper during the Vietnam War. He holds the record for the most confirmed kills by a USMC sniper, having recorded 103 confirmed kills and 216 "probable kills" in his 16 months of action."

"Adelbert F. "Bert" Waldron III, (March 14, 1933 – October 18, 1995) was a United States Army sniper who served during the Vietnam War with the 9th Infantry Division. Although little known, until 2011 Waldron held the record for confirmed kills by any American sniper in history at 109. Although U.S. Navy SEAL Chris Kyle later acquired more confirmed kills, Waldron worked in a jungle environment where target opportunities were less commonplace, whereas Kyle worked in a target-rich urban environment where the rules of engagement were more lax."

[another_liberal]

2. Teenage American draftees collected human ears in Vietnam . . .

This guy is just another example of how war makes people sick.

[braddy]

3. Vietnam was mostly fought by volunteers though, it was WWII that was a draftee military.

[RoccoR5955]

4. No it wasn't

I was in the draft for Nam. There was still conscription then. It was not until AFTER Nam, that they started this voluntary military, which became more popular in the 80s when President Raygun decided to start cutting social programs for unfortunate folks in the inner cities. Many of these poor folks, my brother included, decided to join the military, because jobs were scarce, and this was also a way to "see the world." Well in his case any way, he became a squid in the Navy.

[braddy]

8. I didn't say there wasn't a draft, I said that Vietnam was mostly a volunteer's war, unlike WWII.

I was in the Army when the draft ended in 1973.

[another_liberal]

5. I don't know a soul who volunteered for the Vietnam War . . .

I do know a bunch of people who were drafted into it.

Where does your statistic on volunteers come from?

[braddy]

9. During the Vietnam war only about 30% of those killed in Vietnam were draftees, Army and Marine.

In 1970 the American Army was 22% draftee, in WWII, the American Army was 93% draftees and the entire military was about 66% draftees, and about 70% of our WWII dead were draftees. Even our WWII Navy was 36% draftees.

From VFW Magazine:
During WWI, 72% of servicemen were drafted—50% of the men in France’s trenches were conscripted.

In WWII, 66% of all U.S. forces were drafted. Of the 10.5 million Army personnel, a whopping 93% were draftees. A poll taken in 1941 showed that just more than half of Americans would be willingly drafted for overseas service.

From 1946 to 1973, 5,077,185 men were drafted. During the Korean War era, 30% of total troops were drafted. In December 1950, 82% of the Army in Korea was made up of regulars. Exactly two years later, the ratio was 37% regular to 63% draftee in the war zone.

During the Vietnam era, 1,728,344 men were drafted. Of the forces who actually served in Vietnam, 648,500 (25%) were draftees. Draftees (17,725) accounted for 30.4% of combat deaths in Vietnam.”

[another_liberal]

10. The VFW magazine . . .

That would be a source.

[braddy]

12. Yes, an excellent source for the facts on veterans and their military service.

[another_liberal]

14. Although I haven't seen one in years . . .

I do recall it.

[wildbilln864]

15. my stepdad volunteered and did three tours in Vietnam!

he received a letter during his first tour telling him he'd been drafted.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. I have a different point of view

This is in response to Mike Malloy's comments on Chris Kyle.

My years in the Army were during peacetime, but they still gave perspective. I have serious problems with the "just following orders" rationale not being a proper defense in all cases. Soldiers are trained to follow orders. Soldiers are often decorated for following orders. Soldiers are ofter given a court martial for not following. While in basic training, I saw a short film about war crimes and how an order to commit one is itself illegal and the soldier is has an obligation to disobey. Of course, the war crime dramatized was a redneck infantry lieutenant ordering that civilians be used as human shields and later that prisoners be executed because the captain wants a body count of at least three. It was a pretty cut and dried case of a war crime with no ambiguity whatsoever. It was all simple, neat and well-packaged. As drama, it was artless.

The reality, I suspect, is quite different. The same people to urge enlistees to "use your chain of command" also warn them that "shit rolls downhill." Too many troops I served with were afraid of authority, even of officers they thought were lunatics or idiots. If a soldier gets a questionable order in combat, my bet is that he will carry it out, no matter distasteful he finds it or how clearly illegal it is. He also knows if he disobeys, there will be repercussions directed his way. He knows his comrades in arms will be discouraged from giving witness against and that there will be a likelihood that up the chain of command, the accused officer's fellow officers will give him the benefit of the doubt against an enlistee.

I like to think I would have refused such an order, but in the heat of performing a live combat mission I cannot be sure how I would have acted.

I can't be accused of being "right wing-ized." I'd make an awfully bad wingnut.

Nor can I be accused of not being among those who tried to stop the war in Iraq before it started. I marched in the late winter/early spring to 2003. One day I was part of the largest anti-war demonstration ever seen in Sacramento. The next day I was part of over a quarter million marchers who jammed Market Street in San Francisco all the way from the Embarcadero to City Hall. Even counting my three years in the Army, March to stop the invasion of Iraq and my other anti-war activities at that time was the best service I ever gave my country.

Chris Kyle does not sound like an admirable person. If it weren't for joining the Navy, he sounds like someone who might have become a serial killer. One of my best friends has a son who served in Iraq. His Marine unit was in Fallujah. One night he was on guard duty. A suspicious looking approached the compound entrance. The young man told him stop. He told him to stop in Arablic. He picked up the language because he had positive interactions with the locals, unlike Chris Kyle. The man did not stop and the young Marine had to shoot and kill. It bothers him to this day. It bothers him even though, as it turns out, the man was, in fact, wearing a suicide bomb.

It's hard for me to think of Chris Kyle as a hero. He is the worst of America, a racist who goes overseas and enjoys murdering foreigners in their own country in order for US oil company tycoons to expropriate that country's natural wealth and isn't bothered by it.

As for my friend's son, he is a hero.

[braddy]

7. Chris Kyle was a Navy SEAL, not Army, and you were trained to only follow "lawful" orders when you

were in, you would have been trained that "following orders" is not a defense, and that "unlawful" orders were to be disobeyed.

[Jack Rabbit]

11. Thank you

Mr. Kyle has now joined Navy in paragraph 7.

You might want to go back re-read the entire post. I was trained to that "following orders" is not a defense and that a soldier has an obligation disobey orders that are direct him to commit war crimes. I simply didn't think it was very good training that would prepare a soldier for a real situation. The reality is that the soldier would be given the order by his superior and he will be given more than a little flack if he doesn't carry them out, regardless of their legality. And, of course, the soldiers who are given the orders will be informed that it's an illegal order, I'm sure.

What would you have done if you were ordered to water board a "terrrorist" detainee? Those who were ordered to do so were told that that water boarding isn't torture and that White House attorneys like Alberto Gonzales, John Yoo and Jay Bybee said so.

I'm not interested in prosecuting the actual torturers. I want the bastards who ordered to them to do it; I want Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest who concocted the who plan; and I want the shysters who vetted the methods used under the label "enhanced interrogation techniques." If the Cheney or Rumsfeld would have asked, they would have vetted the rack or the iron maiden.

[braddy]

13. I always considered the empasis on training soldiers in the difference between "lawful" orders

and "unlawful" as excellent, a wonderful idea. What would you have done in the Army if you had been told to water board a fellow GI?

I don't know what you did in the Army, but some military training gets very intense and I have known a lot of guys who were water boarded, including at International LRRP school, even during basic training as inexperienced soldiers, for instance during the E&E portion of basic in "Little Vietnam" at Ft.Polk, being captured was quite a trauma for those who endured the interrogation training during the Vietnam war.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. Water boarding?

Knowing what I know today, I would refuse. There can be no question about that.

Knowing what I knew in 1977, when I left Ft. Devens for a one-year tour in Korea, I don't know, but I think there was less of a chance of being ordered to do anything like that then. I hadn't given the Spanish Inquisition much thought, but I know now that water boarding was used by Torquemada's thugs.

[braddy]

17. Water boarding of American GIs was common back then, I assume they still do it.

"All special operations units in all branches of the U.S. military and the CIA's Special Activities Division employ the use of waterboarding as part of survival school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training, to psychologically prepare soldiers for the possibility of being captured by enemy forces. John Yoo, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General under President Bush stated that the United States has subjected 20,000 of its troops to waterboarding as part of SERE training prior to deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan."

[Jack Rabbit]

18. The closest thing I had to what you are describing was Field Training Exercises (FTX)

at Ft Devens, Massachusetts.

FTX was a week of fun and games in the woods. Not only was it New England, but it was February in the winter of 76/77, which was particularly snowy New England winter, and I had a case of walking pneumonia that week.

However, I was a "captured" GI and spent a few minutes blindfolded in a tiger cage. However, if they had plans for me beyond that, they didn't materialize. Instead, I was returned to headquarters, let out by some of the Ft Devens permanent staff who played the part of the enemy and told the Sergeant running the show in a horrible Russian accent that they were returning a sick prisoner. "See, we are humane! We are humane!" and then they drove off.

The next morning, at the insistence of the cadre, another troop with a bad cough and I went on sick call. We both had walking pneumonia, were both given antibiotics and returned to FTX.

To be honest, I was only vaguely aware of something called SERE training, and I think they called it that then. Maybe the problem is that they called it something else. It was nearly forty years ago and my only goal in the Army was to ETS before that half-witted war monger Reagan became president. Things like SERE training were associated with troops on career status and encountered when one might go to NCO school or try to get into special forces or some such thing. I had no intention of re-enlisting, so I missed all of that fun.