President Obama on TPP

[yallerdawg]

[They_Live]

1. Wait and see?

Wait and See? Show it to us now so that it can be debated and amended or thrown out.

[yallerdawg]

3. You know there are 11 other countries negotiating?

Our Congressional representatives can look at it as is, right now.

When all 12 countries finalize an agreement, then Congress and the American people will all get to review and discuss the final draft for approval.

You don't show your hand while you are working for the best deal you can get! That's the "secrecy."

[HatTrick]

4. Then, why fast track?

So, we can't see it until the agreement is final.
Why fast track, why not give everyone a chance to debate the agreement once it's final?

[yallerdawg]

6. TPA does exactly that.

Without fast track, this would be like the trial in Dickens's "Bleak House." We already have 10 years of negotiations. It would go on and on and on, until there was nothing left. Because every change, every added item, every removal, would have to be agreed to by Congress, the President, and 11 other countries.

Fast track - TPA - allows for a final draft up or down vote. After we all look at it the final draft.

[Hoyt]

8. You can show em language, they'll still turn around and say things like we won't know what it says

until it's already approved. Some are still repeating Warren's misrepresentation that we won't see it for 4 years.

I'm absolutely amazed, and disappointed, not to mentioned worried about our future with junk like this.

[yallerdawg]

9. Oh, I hear ya!

Actually, people like you have inspired me to never give up. I had been hiding in a couple safe havens or not coming to DU, but every time I'd look at the cray cray, there was someone like you!

[They_Live]

10. "worried about the future"

indeed. Me too. I'm all out of trust.

[daleanime]

11. Who been 'negotiating' for 10 years?

Labor in any fashion? No.

Multi-national corporations? Yes.

What could go wrong? The mind boodles.

[They_Live]

12. correctomundo

Not workers or unions.

[yallerdawg]

13. The United States of America negotiates.

Office of the United States Trade Representative:

http://www.ustr.gov/

The Labor Advisory Committee including a fella named Trumka:

https://ustr.gov/about-us/advisory-committees/labor-advisory-committee-lac

[Hoyt]

21. You really need to do some reading, here are some of the organizations that have had input.

The American Association for Laboratory Accreditation
Africa-America Institute
Alliance of Western Milk Producers
American Butter Institute
American Farm Bureau Federation
American Farm Bureau Federation (AFBF)
American Sheep Industry Association, Inc.
American Society of Civil Engineers
American Society of Mechanical Engineers
Audubon Naturalist Society
Boston University
Brookings Institution
Business Software Alliance
Commissioner, Miami Dade County
Consumers Union
Council of Great Lakes Governors
Council of State Governments
Dept. of Economic Dev. & Commerce
Duke University
Florida Farm Bureau Federation
Georgia Agricultural Commodity Commission for Peanuts
Institute for International Economics
Maine House of Representatives
Maryland Department of Agriculture
Maryland Port Administration
Mayor/ Orlando, Florida
Mayor/City of Doral, Florida
Mississippi Development Authority
National Association of Attorneys General
National Center for State Courts
National Conference of State Legislatures
National Governors Association
North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
North Carolina Farm Bureau
Office of Governor of State of Washington
Office of Governor/New Jersey
Princeton Healthcare, Inc.
South Carolina Farm Bureau
South Carolina State Ports Authority
State of Arizona
State of Nevanda Global Trade & Investment
Supreme Court Chief Justice/Wisconsin
Texas A&M University
Texas Department of Agriculture
Texas Farm Bureau
Texas House of Representatives
The Humane Society of the United States
Treasurer, State of Nevada
United Auto Workers
United Farmers USA, Inc.
United Food and Commercial Workers Union (UFCW)
Washington State Potato Commission


And, as Yallerdawg points out, there is also a Trade Labor Advisory Committee that includes the major unions.

USTR Labor Advisory Committee Members

Clayola Brown National President, A. Philip Randolph Institute (APRI)
Thomas Buffenbarger International President, International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers (IAM)
Jim Clark President, International Union of Electronic, Salaried, Machine and Furniture Workers (IUE)
Leo Gerard International President, United Steelworkers (USW)
Raymond Hair President, American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada (AFM), AFL-CIO/CLC

Joseph T. Hansen President, United Food & Commercial Workers (UFCW)
Mary Kay Henry International President, Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
Ed Hill International President, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
James P. Hoffa General President, International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT)
Ken Howard President, Screen Actors Guild/American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (SAG-AFTRA)
Gregory Junemann International President, International Federation of Professional & Technical Engineers (IFPTE)
Richard Kline President,Union Label & Service Trades Department, AFL-CIO
Lee Moak President, International Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), AFL-CIO
Jorge Ramirez President, Chicago Federation of Labor
Cecil E. Roberts, Jr. President, United Mineworkers of America (UMWA)
Arturo Rodriguez President, United Farm Workers of America (UFW)
Sara Nelson International President, Association of Flight Atendants, AFL-CIO (CWA)
Lee Saunders President, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
Richard Trumka President, American Federation of Labor & Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO)
Baldemar Velasquez President, Farm Labor Organizing Committee (FLOC)
Randi Weingarten President, American Federation of Teachers (AFT)
Dennis Williams President, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW)
Forthcoming President, Transportation and Trades Department, AFL-CIO

[daleanime]

22. Well, if you want to think of it that way....

I've had 'input' in the negotiations too, not that anyone will listen to me either.

Try not to pay attention to the simple fact, the benefits of this 'trade deal' will go to those who don't need it and the costs will have to be endured by those who can least afford it.

[Hoyt]

23. So you don't think Vietnamese could benefit from more jobs, or we could

benefit from more Japanese, Korean auto firms moving plants here? Or Japan having to take more of our autos?

Fact is, unions, environmentalists, etc., have had input. In too many cases, they are just playing to their membership and not offering anything constructive.

[daleanime]

24. And that's another place we disagree....

you really believe unions and environmentalists are in such a powerful place that they are in position to offer anything.

Now they should be, but we should to be realist right?

[Geronimoe]

2. Baloney

Last edited Fri May 8, 2015, 08:50 PM - Edit history (1)

The President wears no clothes. If it was such a sweet deal for everyone, it would not need to be secret or fast tracked.

[drynberg]

19. THIS IS THEE NUGGAT OF TRUTH THAT CAN SWING SUPPORT AGAINST TPP, OF COURSE

There are many "reasons" to have Fast Track and Secrets, but none of them are valid.

[HatTrick]

5. This is NAFTA all over again.

I'm hearing the same arguments as we heard with NAFTA. The, we need this deal otherwise China will do it.
He has to trot out old Bill Clinton lines to try and get this passed.

[doc03]

7. We lost the entire steel industry in this valley because

of these trade deals, about 12000 direct jobs and another 80000 or so indirect jobs. We can't compete with labor
making 50 cents a hour.

[jjewell]

14. In a "Representative Democracy" ie. ("Republic")...

the People (via their Elected Representatives) are the final arbiter of what they will or will not accept or desire. Giving the TPP "Trade Promotion Authority - (TPA)" ie. ("Fast Track&quot when the TPP accounts for 40 percent of the global economy, and when TPA means extremely limited Congressional debate, and ZERO Amendments allowed, is the dictionary definition of "FOOLISHNESS".

If the TPP is worth signing, it is worth OPEN DEBATE in the Congress so the American People can weigh in to their elected representatives as to their desires, pro or con.

In the case of the TPP, the more secrecy applied to its contents, and the less OPEN DEBATE involved, the MORE the American People need to be apprised of its contents and its ramifications via full and OPEN DEBATE in Congress.

The TPP is supposed to be an International Trade Agreement. It is NOT a Nuclear Arms Agreement to prevent/forestall Armageddon.

NO on TPA. Full and OPEN Congressional DEBATE on TPP.

[yallerdawg]

15. We are not negotiating between political parties.

This is trade agreements with other nations!

From free trade wiki:

"it is extremely difficult for any U.S. President to negotiate significant trade deals if he cannot assure other nations that Congress will refrain from adding numerous amendments and conditions that must then be taken back to the negotiating table". The very nature of Trade Promotion Authority requires Congress to vote on the agreements before they can take effect, meaning that without TPA, "those agreements might never even be negotiated".

[jjewell]

17. I could buy that...

... with a NUCLEAR ARMS AGREEMENT. On an International TRADE Deal...? Not so much.

Trade Promotion Authority means: "Here it is Congress. Take it or leave it. You have 180 seconds each to "debate", NO AMENDMENTS ALLOWED."

And BEFORE the TPA vote, NO MEMBER of Congress or his/her Staff is allowed to even "TAKE NOTES" of the "Agreement" which they can ONLY READ IN FULL, IN SECRET, and CANNOT DISCUSS the contents thereof with THE PEOPLE they REPRESENT, their Constituents...??? uhh.. HELL NO

Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Alan Grayson have ALL read the full contents of the TPP. They have ALL come out opposed. I happen to trust them MORE than those who would keep it secret until inevitability/irrevocability.

NO on TPA. FULL AND OPEN Congressional DEBATE on TPP, PRIOR to ANY VOTE.

You want TPP consent from ME? Convince ME, OPENLY.

Like that idiot Reagan said: Trust, With Verification...

[yallerdawg]

20. "A closed mind is a bar to any argument."

Congress has made specific goals and is involved in the negotiations. They will be reviewing it all the way up to the final draft. 180 seconds? More like a couple months. We'll have it available to us on the internet to 'advise' our Congressional reps.

But you don't really have to see it or read it, do you?

[jjewell]

25. My bad... It's 88 seconds of floor debate per member before the TPA vote...

[yallerdawg]

26. Floor debate is where you get up and make a speech for TV.

They will have a couple months of real debate and our input!

Rep. Grayson's "video" can be refuted point after point. This is what Obama said.

Looking back, trade agreements have not lived up to their promise. He said that when he campaigned for 2008 election. Grayson says, "Look back. Vote no." Obama said this is the position they have wrong. But let's not trust Obama, he has been screwing us for years?

Grayson's solution - let's adopt the proposal of the richest 1%er in America! No irony there!

Why would our favorite Democratic politicians oppose TPA and TPP? It will be a win/win/win for them politically!

If it fails to get the votes, good! Back to the drawing board, next president please. And we still have the old agreements to blame!

If it passes, and is adopted by the member nations, and shit happens, constituent jobs are lost for whatever reason, trade deficits suck for whatever reason, things happen that could be blamed on trade -- they opposed and got cover!

If it passes, and everything works as forecast, a whole new world of global cooperation opens up, all the promises come to fruition -- who gives a shit you voted no, history was on your side and you stood with the worker.

We'll see what happens - but TPA and TPP are not the coming of The Apocalypse. No matter what happens.

[jjewell]

27. You cannot refute Grayson's video point by point using the TPP...

because you haven't seen the TPP, and neither have I. Which is the basic reason I am steadfastly opposed
to granting it TPA authority. If it can't pass muster via regular order through Congress, too bad, so sad.

Warren Buffett's plan, which Grayson proposes to submit to Congress, is a plan to seriously do something to
reduce our trade deficit. Will the TPP accomplish that? Who knows? We can't look at it or debate it.

BTW, Bill Gates is STILL the richest 1%er in America according to Forbes. Buffett straggles in at number two...

As for Alan Grayson, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders all opposing TPA and TPP to score political points?

I believe that to be ridiculous, cynical, political conjecture of the worst sort. Bernie, in particular, has been
consistent on trade issues for over 26 years.

As you say, "We'll see what happens". I'm not expecting "The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse" to suddenly
appear if TPA and/or TPP pass. But I don't expect anything good for America to come of it...

[yallerdawg]

29. I can't, but Obama has said he could...

and Grayson and Obama can both sit down together and go over it right now!

Regular order through Congress? You want an abortion ban attachment on every agreement? Or a pipeline across America? Or a hundred other items? This is what TPA eliminates!

Obama does expect good for America. He doesn't represent a small district or state or a region or a special interest group. He represents the entire country and every worker and American.

My dismay is that we would throw this president under the bus without even seeing what the deal is.

[jjewell]

30. As I have already stated...

If this was a Nuclear Arms Agreement (like with Iran), I'd be in complete agreement with "Negotiation Secrecy".

I deem what Tom Cotton and his 46 "Fellow Travelers" did in in writing that letter to the Iranian Ayatollahs and
attempting to throw Obama under the bus without even seeing what the negotiated multinational
NUCLEAR ARMS AGREEMENT was, as tantamount to Treason.

An International Trade Agreement is in NO WAY equivalent to a Nuclear Arms Agreement.

My objections are mainly based on the "bum rush" of the TPA. I can't offer knowledgable objections to the
contents of the TPP because I'm being kept ignorant of it's contents due to the SECRECY attached to it's contents.

THIS I vehemently object to.

How can my elected representatives reflect MY views on proposed TRADE legislation, when
my elected representatives are FORBIDDEN from discussing and disclosing the contents of the
proposed TRADE legislation to ME, his constituent??

I'm just supposed to just "trust" a secret process in a supposedly Open Society?

On a Trade Deal??

In a "Representative Democracy"???

After NAFTA???

Are you shitting me???

YES. Regular order through Congress!!! If the TPP does not pass through the gauntlet, tough shit.
At least everyone will know why. What's the big rush that it needs to bypass regular order?

Why can it not be openly debated and/or amended???

Bottom line:

When Wall Street, Orrin Hatch, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Paul Ryan, Rand Paul, the Chamber of Commerce,
companies like Nike and President Obama are on one side of a debate, and Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren,
Alan Grayson, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and the Congressional Black Caucus are the other side of the debate,
I'll choose Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and the Congressional Black Caucus
EVERYTIME.

You may want to reconsider who is throwing whom under the bus.

And by the way, where is Hillary on this???

[yallerdawg]

31. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink."

All the reasons for what is happening have been laid before you.

And we are back to 'secret' and 'bum rush.'

Your mind is made up. And that's that.

[jjewell]

32. Yes. My mind is made up. As is yours...

"I trust Obama" is insufficient cause or reason for me to support Trade Promotion Authority (TPA)
for the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP). And, just like Obama, you've provided ZERO REASON
beyond "TRUST ME" for me to alter my opinion or change my mind.

The argument that Congress will try to add "abortion amendments and other extraneous amendments" to
the TPP is a weak ass argument to the point of anorexia, particularly when all of the GOP leadership actually
SUPPORTS Obama in this bullshit Fast Tracked "Trade Bill".

BTW, if the negotiations have been ongoing for TEN Years, please explain the necessity for FAST TRACK now.
If all affected parties have been onboard for the entire length of the negotiations, assurance of bipartisan
Senate approval should have already been a done deal, WITHOUT the need for Fast Track Authority (TPA).

Too Many on the "WRONG" side of my basic political beliefs and opinions (Progressive) are on Obama's side
of this issue. (The GOP)

And "Too Few" of the political allies I Trust (Again Progressive), who have ACTUALLY READ what's
being proposed in the TPP, actually "AGREE" with Obama and his GOP supporters, for ME to EVER
give MY consent to allowing Trade Promotion Authority (TPA/Fast Track) for the TPP.

Fight out the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) in Congress under regular rules and order, with full debate and disclosure of what's involved, and its ramifications for the American people, or let it go.

Like that idiot Reagan once said: "Trust, With Verification..."

"You can lead a blind fool to eat or drink anything."

Those who fail to learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it...

[panfluteman]

16. Fair Trade, NOT Free Trade!

Obama's talk is chock full of generalities and old, worn-out cliches - nothing specific. The bottom line of his argument is still nothing more than "Trust me, I'm your president." And on that also, we have a long trail of broken campaign promises. If the Unions and Labor are against it, Obama can swear that it will create American jobs 'till he's blue in the face, it won't change my mind - especially if he's offering no specifics of exactly HOW or WHY it would create jobs. Get real, Mr. President! Fast track is the first, and maybe even the final step to selling our national sovereignty down the river.

[Enthusiast]

18. Mr. President your argument is completely unconvincing.

If you do this you do it against the wishes of the American people.

[AtomicKitten]

28. Boo! Hiss!