Two Canadians learn that America is a police state.

[Courtesy Flush]

#!

[yesphan]

1. Holy CRAP !

[truedelphi]

2. So much for that couple ever coming here to shop again! n/t

[HopeHoops]

13. Yeah, that's going to help the economy - did anyone ask if they even KNOW what stores are there?

Hell, with as many stores as we've had shut down in our local mall (thanks shrub), I don't even know what stores are still in MY mall - and I've been there within the past three months. Several long-running stores were gone then so I won't be shocked to find more standards gone next time I'm there. Just think, he answers "Old Navy" and the storm trooper knows it closed up two months earlier - what a stupid fucking question in the first place.

The only thing you had to do last I was in Canada (pre-shrub) was be sure you said you were a "tourist" and not "on business" or you'd end up getting held up with hours worth of paperwork and phone calls to make sure you were "working legally". Having a laptop (not common then) was a sure way to get the question so you had to have something clever ready like "I'm logging my trip for my personal journal", or "to download images to clear space on my camera" (if you had one).

[truedelphi]

15. We could help our local economy overnight if we simply pared back

Homeland Security. It doesn't make any of us more secure -to interrogate shoppers from Canada or to have to stand back and let TSA people grope a one year old's bottom, using the pretense that the parents could be stashing drugs in the kids diaper.

Meanwhile huge containers enter the country all the time, and few of them are scanned or checked.

Anyway even way back in the seventies, I did not enjoy going through USA customs to come back to this country. It was so punitive.

[HopeHoops]

18. Yeah, but the containers are just from who-the-fuck-knows where - these were CANADIANS!

TSA is just a big "boogie man" - BE AFRAID! TERRISTS! UNDERWEAR! SHOES EVEN!

I remember after McVeigh did his thing, I was taking a bus down I-80 in PA and we pulled into a rest area, had "agents" from who knows what department board the bus and randomly ask people questions. One of them said something like, "just relax, this is a standard procedure. We don't want anymore Oklahoma City episodes." - Did the bus look like a fucking rental truck to them? Then they pulled off three people with Middle-eastern physical appearances, practically strip searched them in the parking lot, went through all of their bags, and put them and their stuff back on the bus and we were on our way. It put us an hour behind and a few people were griping that they were going to miss connecting transportation because of it. Yeah, I felt a LOT safer.

[teddy51]

3. When are these people going to learn to just answer the questions and don't lip off?

There not going to win the argument, so give it up for Christ sake. You piss the border agents off on either side, your in deep shit.

And to add, if they had gotten caught recording that shit they would be inside a jail looking out.

[bigmonkey]

23. So it's your contention that you have absolutely no rights in the presence of police authority?

That's what you're suggesting. We should really teach this in school - "Remember, kids, the police can do anything to you that they like, with impunity. Up to and including killing you, it's their choice."

[teddy51]

25. As a Canadian citizen crossing the US border you have absolutely no rights. Kill the attitude,

answer the questions as briefly as possible and hopefully you will be on your way. I stated in another post that I cross the borders probably every two weeks and I have learned what you should and shouldn't do in response to their questions.

[xtraxritical]

52. I think the pigs just wanted to strip search the wife, maybe the husband too.

[Courtesy Flush]

36. Don't be an enabler, Teddy

It's not illegal to have an attitude, or to question authority. In the recording, they got in trouble as soon as they asked "why". That is not a criminal act. The cops don't have to tell them why, I'll grant you that, but it's no crime to ask the question.

Too many Americans feel the way you do -- that cops can just arrest anybody they get mad at.

[teddy51]

37. I guess my only response would be, if you want the trouble that comes with asking why then by all

means go for it. My trips across the border began in the early 60'ies and in that time I have learned that it doesn't pay to mess with the border guys. Just answer the questions, and you won't find trouble. With the Patriot Act, and now NDAA law the border guards have a pretty good arsenal on their side.

[KurtNYC]

43. We used to have a "joke" in Los Angeles: How do you make a cop hit you in the head with their

flashlight?"
.
.
.
Answer: You say 'YOU can't hit me in the head with your flashlight!"

*clunk!*

[Serve The Servants]

40. But that's exactly what happens.

You piss a cop off, you go to jail. It does not matter whether they are wrong or right, or if you were doing anything illegal. You will be arrested. Chances are no charges will be filed, and the arrest will be downgraded to a "detention", but you still get all the short term inconveniences that accompany being arrested. These may include job loss, name in the news, lawyer fees, etc. This is a power that they cherish and value, it forms the foundation of their "ultimate authority". Until police are penalized for unlawful arrest, nothing will change.

Oh, and God help you if you resist, but part of me thinks that what they want. Then they really got you.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

46. Absolutely. We are losing out rights because fewer people are asking "Why?"

And, on top if it, they become annoyed at those that do.

[BeliQueen]

42. Exactly.

I couldn't listen to the entire interview because the guy was being so assertive and confrontational. He doesn't like answering stupid and intrusive questions to come across the border to go shopping--yeah that sucks. But to escalate the situation by being sarcastic and demeaning just makes the whole thing worse.

Answer the questions as quickly and as thoroughly as possible and be on you way. Someone asks what stores are you visiting, say "I don't know, but the last time we went we shopped at H&M...or Barnes & Noble--for the cheap books."

But this guy came to the situation with an attitude that he was going to rail against the system and make everyone's day harder. I'll take a few question over that back-scatter x-ray machine any day.

[think]

4. As an American I appologize for the way these people were treated

[teddy51]

5. I don't at all, just answer the questions and don't lip off is a good way to keep it. Just to be

clear, it's no different when you cross into Canada.

[think]

9. The boarder guards were total dicks. Just because you can be an asshole doesn't mean you should be.

[teddy51]

11. I cross the border on a regular basis and have run into some total dicks on both sides.

The point is, lipping off to them as not going to go well for you. Just answer there questions as pleasantly as possible and be done with it.

[truedelphi]

14. The qustion was asnine. How can you tell someone the name of a store if

You don't know the names of any stores. They were going to a mall to walk around.They are a young married couple.

What is happening in this is that we are now employing far too many border guards and too many police for the purpose of trying to find a use for all the War on terror crap that allows Homeland Security to have far too much money. While every other state, county and local agency in the country is suffering.

Anyway you think you understand the system. But sooner or later, even you, oh mighty diplomatic person who always understands what to do, might be in a situation where the person in a uniform is a complete dick and you realize they are going to make matters tough for you. Not for any reason, but simply because they enjoy it.

That's always been the case, but since Nine Eleven, it has been a lot worse. For instance, my neighbors watched as TSA groped their one year old daughter's private parts. So much for democracy. And they can do anything they want, as there is always the excuse that the the traveling parents are using their daughter's body to hide drugs.

[KurtNYC]

45. If you think the guys in this tape were "complete dicks" then you might not know the full range

of dick-itude.

I'm going to guess that the audio here was recorded by the US Border Patrol and then released to show how calm and patient they were with these 2. The would-be border crosser was very argumentative and cut off the officers, laughed at them and told them he knew their job better than they do (and then 10 seconds later said he didn't). Don't try any of those things at ANY border crossing.

Getting sent to "the room" as this couple was is about a 2 on the scale of 10. The argumentative Canadian thought he was so smart but he did some of the dumbest things you can do and he wouldn't shut up for 3 seconds.

I recommend (for ANY international border)

- Be thick-skinned and just answer the questions. They may ask 3 they may ask 20. If they ask 20 they will ask some very personal questions but just answer them the best you can. Don't freak out, laugh, ask why or call anyone a nazi. Just answer briefly and completely.

- Try not to cross an international border with somebody who is mouthy and has issues with authority like the guy in this tape because you will go the room or worse too. If someone in your party behaves like this then THEY are a dick. Don't go traveling with the president of the debate club.

- Don't bring any quantity of any drug across a border. Not a roach in the ashtray, not seeds, residue. Nothing.

- Don't lie. Don't talk on your cell phone in the lines (as the signs say), don't text and absolutely do not record.

If you don't want to consent to questions and searches then don't cross borders.

[truedelphi]

59. You totally ignored what for me was the main point of the

my remarks and went out on your own tangent.

The police or border crossing official wanted to know the particular name of a particular store. Otherwise he was going to put this couple into the "box" that they were possible terrorists.

Isn't this ridiculous? I mean, stop for one minute and think about it... How does it make us safer - that the border patrol is now mainly concerned with the attitudes of people crossing the border.

If they discover someone to be a free spirit -why detain the fuck out of them. Meanwhile the real terrorists are walking the required walk and talking the required talk. If they were terrorists, you better beleive they would have an answer. The fact that the man didn't have a name of a a store means they were just casual tourists. If they were terrorists, they would have had a complete and totally accountable profile of what their visit entailed.

What this shows me is that we have gone from a nation of common sense, to a nation where these bureaucrats can detain us on account of not fitting into the very narrow margins of their training manual examples. Detention should be employed only in the most extreme cases, but as this video shows, it is now routine to hassle regular people.

I used to visit relatives who lived six miles short of the Canadian border, and we went back and forth over the border a dozen time sin two weeks. Never any hassle. But the war on drugs,which let's admit it, is a phony setup, that causes the young and those of color to end up jailed for very little, while those most guilty are sent here from south of the border, cleaned up and then become the owners of banks, so their illustrious drug cartel parents can launder money.

And the war on terror is basically phoney too.

You can avoid discussing what I am discussing and make your points, which are not invalid of themselves, but which are invalid in terms of what I am talking about. Hit reply to the main OP and not these remarks of mine

[AnotherMcIntosh]

47. x 2 n/t

[bec]

41. His response

All this for a does it matter response? Come on, not every country raises sheep. This sort of response from an American crossing the Canadian border would not have ended this way.

[HopeHoops]

6. Worst I ever had 15 years ago was a Golden Retriever sniffing my butt at the airport.

I figured it was profiling because I looked like Tommy Chong.

Fucking fascists.

[rexcat]

7. This is not that atypical...

I have seen my fair share of US customs and immigration people be complete assholes to people coming into the US, including US citizens. It is like the US government does not want people to travel to/from the US. Everytime I have reentered the US I have seen them get nasty, especially prople from the Middle East and India. Give someone a gun and some authority and they are bound to let it go to their heads.

[teddy51]

10. Yep, but your better off not to have an attitude with them cause one is not going to win.

[rexcat]

16. When I return to the US...

I answer their questions in a polite manner but if they are not specific I answer the question honestly but as vague as I can be. If asked where I was born I say the US. When they ask me where in the US I will respond in the Southeast. If asked where in the SE I will give them the state and if asked what city I will state it. In no way have I been deceitfully and I am always calm and respectful. If they want to know something specifically they have to ask specific questions. Same for all questions.

I had one US immigration officer Montreal, Canada become exasperated with me and asked what the hell I was doing. I politely told him that I worked in the pharmaceutical industry and we are trained to answer all questions (FDA or any government agency) honestly but without specifics unless directly asked. We ended up having an interesting conversation and I went on my way. The problem is people will say too much and it can inadvertently get them into trouble.

As far as the incident in the OP I think the immigration officers were being total dicks from the beginning. If I were to sit on a jury on that case I would vote to acquit and I would have some harsh comments for the US immigration officers. People should be treated with more respect but that does not seem to be the case in the US. And as far as Canadian immigration officers go they have been very nice to me but because the US immigration officers treat Canadian citizens we should expect some blow back. We are seeing blow back in other countries also.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

48. It would be a shame to get some blow back from Canadian border guards, but that may very well happen

[sharp_stick]

8. Never piss off the dude in the booth

it doesn't matter if he's a raging asshole, many of them are. Answer the idiots questions with as short a response as possible and you'll be on your way.

These guys have a lot more power than a lot of people think. When you piss him off you may just be hearing the snap of a latex glove as they remove the tires from the wheels and drop your gas tank on a floor.

[Xipe Totec]

22. Therefore the USA is a Police State. Q.E.D. nt

[sharp_stick]

53. You won't hear much

of an argument from me on that point at least from the POV of immigrants or even tourists. Our first line of defense is populated by underpaid wanna be cops with a chip on their shoulder. Every one wants to be the guy that gets the next bad guy and they make everyones life hell in the process.

I cross the CDN/USA border by car several times a year and I've learned where to go, who to talk to and what to say.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

49. The problem with the Canadians is that encounter nice people and didn't realize he was an asshole.

An American could have spotted this sooner and gone along with the program.

[sharp_stick]

54. Yup

the guy thought it was a joke and by the time he figured it out it was too late. The asshole in the booth should have been fired for losing the economic opportunity of the Canadians willing to come down here and shop.

[peace13]

12. This makes my physically ill.

Let's make this perfectly clear. You are guilty until deemed innocent in the US. Do not ever underestimate the power that a 'law enforcer' has over you. They can and will take it all.

We cross the border on Lake Erie all summer and you never know what you will find on the US side.

I feel sorry for the Canadian male who did not understand what country he was trying to visit. It is clear that even if he does not get charged he will never be able to cross into the US again.

My Canadian friend was on the 'no cross' list for no apparent reason. It took years to correct the error and he had never had an altercation such as this with the border patrol.

If you are crossing into the US you have to be totally calm and give all details no matter how stupid it seems to you. They have all the power. They are using faux-psychology to determine if you are a terrorist.

[jberryhill]

17. "You are guilty until deemed innocent in the US"

Until you have entered, you are not "in the US".

[peace13]

57. Entered or not I believe from the conversation that they are under US control. n/t

[AnotherMcIntosh]

50. Using faux-psychology to determine terrorists? Maybe they are just being jerks to be jerks.

[AsahinaKimi]

19. wow...

just wow..

[Dragonfli]

21. I live 20 miles from the Peace Bridge (between Buffalo US and Ft. Erie Canada) I have seen, heard

and experienced worse than that.

When I was a young boy we went shopping in Canada almost every week, it was different then, even sane, short simple questions and you were on your way.

Now, it has gotten surreal, after the last time I was stopped searched and let go (with my aging mother), I was told I was put on a no cross list. I was not told why and did nothing but be polite. It really is getting pretty horrible at the bridge now. It think it has a great deal to do with the very large infusion of cash the border guys at the bridge received about ten years ago, last I heard Homeland security wanted to take over much (nearly all in fact) of Front park (a small green park near the bridge on the US side) for undisclosed reasons to build high security buildings of an undisclosed purpose.

Money and storm troopers have ruined a once great relationship between the two cities, very sad, very unnecessary.
The Canadian border personnel are still very polite and manage to do their jobs quite well without resorting to such tactics, I wonder why we can't as well.

[AsahinaKimi]

33. I used to travel up to VanCouver to visit friends

Now a passport is required. It used to be if you had a valid drivers liecence and birth certificate. The idea of going there now scares me. I guess after hearing this my fears are justified. The last time my parents went though US customs they had a very difficult time.
Its getting to the point, that its becoming harder and harder to leave the country, and come back. If I want to travel to far away places, I have the option of Hawaii and Alaska... since my passport has expired.

[Meiko]

20. What is the source

of the recording?

[rationalcalgarian]

24. Just a hunch...

... but maybe an iPod in a shirt pocket? I've never tried it so I don't know what the recording quality would be, but that was my first guess.

[Meiko]

51. Thats what I was thinking

But why would anyone record it. The clarity of the recording implies it was made by the man and his wife.He comes through very clear. If it was, why were they recording? Have they had problems before or were they looking for trouble?

[southmost]

26. I'm surprised anyone would be shocked by this police state treatment

I don't even have to cross the border down here and have to put up with these 'interviews'/interrogations just driving within the southern part of this state

[rationalcalgarian]

27. Three terrorists per day?

Really?
These guys catch three terrorists a day... coming in from Canada.... over a thousand a year.... wow

I guess it all depends on one's definition of "terrorist".

[Dragonfli]

29. It was no idle boast, we witnessed him catching 2 Canadian "terrorists" right there! Go USA!! /nt

[teddy51]

31. One would think so wouldn't they? But seriously, there are a good number of Border Agents just

like this guy was. They can be mean as rat shit, and there is no way in hell a Canadian citizen is going to win against them. These people have the power to turn you around and deny you entry into the US forever if they want to.

[klook]

28. And when the woman starts getting upset, her husband commands her to SIT DOWN!

Fascism is contagious.

[Dragonfli]

30. It sounded to me like he was trying to protect her from a quixotic attempt to protect him.

My wife would have done the same for me, knowing that my instinct would be to get up and go over to where she was being manhandled as he was. I suppose that would make my wife a fascist as well. Go figure.

[klook]

35. Maybe that's all it was -- I heard it as the guy getting a little too testosterone crazed

and talking to his wife in a disrespectful manner.

The officers were dicks and were obviously trying to create a stressful situation from the very beginning of this encounter. Bullies with a badge and a gun love to intimidate everybody they meet, and when they get a challenge it makes their day. I don't fault this couple, but I agree with others in this thread who've said you have to basically treat the officers like rattlesnakes -- be very cautious and give them the absolute minimum of information they've asked for.

[southernyankeebelle]

32. Power just power that is all its about. Shame of those police officers. I don't blame those people

if they don't want to come back to shop. They went overboard. Those people had a right to ask those questions.

[The Wielding Truth]

34. Did I miss the guard asking for passports or pass cards?

[truth2power]

38. My family of origin are Canadian citizens. I would like to apologize to Canada

for what this fucking country has become. Sickening!!

The War Against Terrorism (TWAT) is a crock of shit!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

39. Outrageous!

It reminds me of the time when the Canadian authorities had the exact opposite attitude when I was going into Canada.

At the border, the Canadian border guard asked: "Where are you going?"

My wife and I had just come back from England. I asked: "Is this a trick question?"

My wife said, "He means where are we going in Canada?" We told him Quebec and talked a little bit.

The Canadian border guard didn't mind at all. He was friendly. Nothing like the jerks that we have as TSA agents or now apparently "our" border guards at the US-Canada border.

The superiors of the jerk in the video clip should discipline him. They won't.

[teddy51]

44. "The superiors of the jerk in the video clip should discipline him." They won't because

his boss was in on it as far as I could see.

[teddy51]

55. I think allot of times these US border guards try to intimidate these people to get them to

the point of confrontation. They know that they wield the authority, and they push (because many are assh***) to make you lose it.

[KurtNYC]

56. Why not just answer with what you are shopping for?

If you don't know the name of the stores or a store then say you are going to clothes or whatever it is you are shopping for.

You are speaking to a border guard, not the hostess at TGI Fridays. He doesn't have to talk nice to you. Have thicker skin and don't try to win a debate.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

58. Stick to flying...

The US Customs staff posted at Canadian airports seem to be on consistently better behavior than the neanderthals at land crossings.