The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER...

[babylonsister]

&feature=player_embedded

[Inspired]

1. Do I stand up and cheer or cry a little over what was lost?

I don't know but I do agree that this was indeed the most honest thing I've ever seen on TV.

[11 Bravo]

3. I have easily see that clip a dozen times, and I still get the same chills that I got the first time

[liberalmike27]

7. And Another Thing

The best shows are always buried on pay cable. Oh well, maybe Netflix or Hulu will get it eventually, after five or ten years.

And they always get rid of, or fire people who actually do tell the truth and inform, on the media. Even what they call the "left" of the corporate media is a sad, middle to right representation of what we used to have, as left as corporations will allow, with the huge hole of obfuscation of what used to be a rift of liberal ingredients.

It's why we've got such in-line Democrats, stodgy party supporters who repeat almost as endlessly as FOX watchers, but with the MSNBC line, still ignoring the most important issues. We're talking endlessly about guns, while Rome burns, while 20-30 million are unemployed. Another house went up for sale on my block, making eight in a 1/3 of a mile block with about 40 homes. And not one has sold in over a year.

Banks are fine, the war industries are pumping, we're killing with the drones, and Americans love it, because a Democrat is now the head exterminator. Hey, ain't my kid that got bloodied with the drone, so no worries.

[JoeBlowToo]

23. It was honest until it got to the nostalgia for a time that never was...

The USA has always been busy fucking over someone.

[NoMoreWarNow]

31. just what I was thinking

USA! has always been way overrated and it's ridiculous and obnoxious to say any country is ther greatest anyway.

[greiner3]

37. "23. It was honest until it got to the nostalgia for a time that never was..."

Sorry you didn't grow up in the 60s and 70s.

While I can't totally dismiss your claim, "...for a time that never was..." I sure remember the 'can do' attitude and the 'Good Samaritan' attitudes of most EVERYONE.

Sorry you had to grow up in the, 'ME' generation of Reagan.

[dixiegrrrrl]

43. I have been so sadly nostalgiac for the 60's and 70's

I miss the "Age of Aquarius" feeling that we COULD make significant changes, that our tomorrows promised better things than our
yesterdays,
I miss the strength of unity and conviction that made it possible to make Johnson decide to not run again, t
into stopping a war, and stopping the draft (January 27, 1973 ).

The time WAS....from 1966 thru the 70's..oh yes, it surely was, I was there, I remember what my generation did.

[JoeBlowToo]

45. You are suffering from the nostalgia bug as well...

We were fucking overf the people of Vietnam in the 1960's. Nixon and his henchmen fucked over the people of Chile because they elected the wrong guhy. I watched while George Bush Sr.'s agents assassinated Orlando Letelier along with one of my friends in 1976. Please wise up. There has neve been a time when the US government has not been fucking over someone.

[Blanks]

60. True, but...

We were the leader in many of the other things that he mentioned.

He asked the question: "how do you measure" and the items that he listed were things where we were the greatest.

Only after years (and now decades) of the kind of corruption that you're talking about did we cease to be the wealthiest, most productive and best educated country in the world.

We were good in the post WWII era, until Kennedy cut taxes on the wealthiest Americans.

[LibertyBell7]

64. Kennedy (bit of Right Wing talking point there...)

First: On general principles (and relating to Golden Age nostalgia), the US was formed by slave-holding, land-owning gentry white men, and we've struggled with that devil over our shoulder for the entire 237 since our founding. That said, there are worst times and better times, and the mid-50s through the 70s may have been our best times.

To the point that things were all good until Kennedy cut taxes on the wealthy? that is a bit of a Right-Wing trope trotted out to demonstrate that the (failed/failing) Supply-Side concept actually started with a Democrat many revere as transformative. I grant he did propose legislation (passed after he was killed) that dropped rates on those with annual earnings above $400,000 from 91% (Put in place by the Republican President Eisenhower) — to 70%...

As Slate's writer David Greenberg said of that cut, &quot It was) hardly the mark of a future Club for Growth member." (Greenberg writes a fine analysis piece at Slate on the whole topic @ http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2004/01/tax_cuts_in_camelot.html .)

In that article, Greenberg notes that:

The plan Kennedy's team drafted had many elements, including the closing of loopholes (the "tax reform" Kennedy spoke of).Ultimately, in the form that Lyndon Johnson signed into law, it reduced tax withholding rates, initiated a new standard deduction, and boosted the top deduction for child care expenses, among other provisions.

Could you even imagine the war-cries that would erupt from K Street if anybody proposed returning to Kennedy-era taxes on the rich?

Sorry. This transfer of wealth didn't begin until Reagan.

[Blanks]

71. I'm merely pointing out that...

We were on the right track until the top marginal tax rate was reduced.

I'm not using any 'right-wing talking points'; I'm merely pointing out that we were on a solid path of growth and prosperity until the top marginal tax rate was reduced.

I don't care how much wailing and gnashing of teeth there is when I talk about raising taxes on the wealthy; IMHO it's what needs to happen.

We are told that the budget can be balanced by raising the top marginal rate to around 40%, and while that does fine to balance the budget (or seemed to) it doesn't do enough to make things fair. We need to have a top marginal rate of 90% again.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

74. Nah, Nixon...

...I remember the surprise at the recession that came along under Nixon. That recession never really went away either. Kinda felt like it did with Clinton for a while there.
But the Moon landing was the peak. It's been a gradual downhill ever since.

[Mister Griswold]

41. Nailed it.

[Number23]

53. Thank you. There's not a black or brown person in this country that wouldn't love for every single

word that came out of that man's mouth to be the God's honest truth. But it's not. Not even close. The nostalgia in that clip is a beautiful cry for what has NEVER been. I don't know any black person that would go back to 1950, no even for this man's self-manufactured version of 1950s nirvana.

It's glaringly apparent that the writers for that show could use a serious dose of melanin. Somewhere. Anywhere.

[savebigbird]

65. I don't know if many women would want to go back to the 1950s either. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

28. It is an amazing show. I can't wait till next season! nt

[cantbeserious]

2. Truly Brilliant Television!

eom

[plethoro]

4. The most brilliant reply to a question ever. Is Will coming back? I don't know

but maybe not with the MIC in charge.

[dixiegrrrrl]

44. New season returns in June!!!!!

[DaveJ]

5. We aspired to do great things.

I wish we could do that again. I know there are small groups working on tremendous projects, but we could put so much more effort into them. Instead we waste most the potential we have on frivolous selfish goals.

[savebigbird]

66. We will.

I believe with all of my heart that we will do great things. I continue to tell myself that we're in some sort of non-permanent limbo right now, and that things will turn around. With all of the collective wisdom floating around in pockets out there, we have what it takes. It just has to spread.

I'm naive, but I won't lose my hope in our future.

[snappyturtle]

6. I heard it live. I remember I was tearful and at the same time grateful I was

hearing it on US teevee. Thanks for reminding me.

[CanSocDem]

8. Best line...???

"We didn't identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election."

.

[Cha]

9. Jeff Daniels is brilliant, babylonsistah!

I have Newsroom still to look forward to and this is my first bite!

Had my eyes watering We use to get news from great men like Walter Cronkite.

The US "media" should have to watch this and think about their crap.

Thank you, babylonsistah

[snagglepuss]

10. I haven't had a TV for 7 years. What is that from? I'm shocked that

speech made it to air. Truly exceptional.

[crazy homeless guy]

21. TV has had a resurgence of good shows over the past handful of years led by HBO.

My personal list...

The Wire
6ft Under
Boardwalk Empire
Game of Throwns
Mad Men

Not dealing with politics but all really well done and worth watching.

[Grins]

49. The show is "Newsroom"...

On HBO. THis was the first show of its first night. And then it got good...!

[MuseRider]

11. Love the show.

I think there are some brilliant points being made with it. Can't wait for it to be back.

[plethoro]

12. BTW, the Newsroom has been renewed for a second season, which will premiere in June 2013. nft

dddddddd

[underpants]

13. Enough? --- yes we have had enough

brilliant

[whathehell]

14. The only thing I didn't like was

using a female as the easy target of his condescension,

and no, I don't think that was a random choice.


Here's an experiment: Re-think the scene with Will addressing a male

instead of a female.


There wouldn't have been the cleavage, of course, and he

wouldn't have been able to dismiss her with quite that level

of flippant anonymity..."Um..sorority girl"?...It was almost like snapping his fingers.

Seriously...Visualize the scene again, this time with a guy...It wouldn't have

"worked" quite so well for him, would it?

[Hamlette]

18. you are right, but they never would have done it with a "frat boy"

but they should have, especially to prove his point of "worst generation ever". Here it's easy to dismiss it as a speech about "worst dumb blonds ever".

Thanks for being ever vigilante.

[whathehell]

22. Exactly, and thank YOU for appreciating it -- I fully expected (and still do) criticism

for "missing the larger point", LOL

Being a feminist here can be tricky on DU, but you may know this by now.

Thanks, Hamlette.

[Sirveri]

52. to 'prove his point' of the worst generation ever?

What a load of crap that line was. Who raised the worst generation? Ageist bullshit.

They like to say kids today don't work hard. They never stop and ask what they should be working hard to do, work hard to get your pension stolen? Work hard to get screwed over by nepotism? By outsourcing? By Vulture capitalists?

Where they going to work hard? In schools that have been decimated by underfunding? To get a job in manufacturing that is gone?

Give a person a shitty world and then bitch them out when they're not too enthusiastic about eating the pile of shit they're handed, stacked against a wall of money and priviledge so that they can slowly drown while working a series of shitty service jobs, in debt up to their eyeballs until they finally die broken and alone. Then the one time they try and do something and occupy they're beat down by those who told them to try to fix the world and achieve something.

Screw it, old versus young, back versus white, anything to get us to stop looking at those who are really in control.

[Skittles]

54. I agree with this assessment

[Doremus]

69. As a mom of 2 members of the "worst generation," thank you for saying that so eloquently. nt

[crazy homeless guy]

19. It was either soreity girl, jock or soccer mom.

Who else would ask such a lousy question to a candidate?

[whathehell]

24. It was "sorority girl" -- I guess "frat boy", or "jock boy" doesn't "play" as well,

because either of them certainly WOULD come up with the same thing...The "easy target"

though, is always the female.

[seabeyond]

25. point. this is our culture. the show is riddled with sexism. subtle and not. yet.... it is

awesome in bring up the injustices of our nation. too bad hollywood so immerses itself in sexism and misogyny. but, it is run by men. agenda.

that wth

[whathehell]

26. But since they're trying to be so "cutting edge" and all,

shouldn't they have caught themselves?

Just saying.

Thanks for your appreciation though, I thought

for sure that, by now, someone would have upbraided me for

"missing the larger point".


Back atcha, Seab.

[seabeyond]

30. where we are today in the issues of feminism and womens issues is the back seat of the bus.

our issues in time. now, obama finally grabbed onto it for votes this elections and seems to have learned it is a win. but media does not get it, desire it, or has an agenda against it. yes, that is the point. being so cutting edge this should have absolutely been not only an awareness, but a purposeful move on their part. and it says a hell of a lot it was not even a consideration.

i still loved wills speech.

[whathehell]

33. I liked his speech too, but I did NOT like the pointed sexism..

"Let's humiliate the little girl".....Fuck that...The jocks around her

would have been JUST as clueless if not more...Of course you

can't get your busty, teary girl humiliation that way, can you?

[whathehell]

35. I'm not as sure as you are of that..

I feel we MAY be making inroads, although you're probably right

about Sorkin....Interesting that this is coming up today, as Chris Hayes

did a whole show on Women's issues on "Up" today.

I saw this episode when it aired, and certainly "got" Will's

point, but was turned off by the "delivery system" of the cheap sexist shot.

Hell, I could have made the effing speech myself, and HAVE done as much,

minus the theatrics and bully boy behavior.

I watched further but honestly didn't think much of the rest of the show.

which is why I don't watch it, and had no idea how it developed.

[Stargleamer]

75. "white female" that is. . .

I can't seem them doing this with an African-American, Asian American, or Latino female. White females are fair game, in their eyes.

On the other hand, in today's TV world, I could see them doing this to a "frat boy", and it would have "worked" just as well. Guys in fraternities have been portrayed as clueless doofuses since the days of "Animal House". Still, I think an unconscious (or maybe conscious) resentment towards women is why they decided to cast the questioner as female, but I am not certain. Surely feminism does not dictate that in plays or movies, female characters can never say anything stupid. If one starts noticing a pattern, however. . .

[Bucky]

79. Frat Boy would've worked just fine. But Sorkin likes his protagonists just a tad abusive.

So, yes, gender was critical to that scene, just like the faux balancing of a liberal "loser" and a brainless rah-rah conservative on bookends of the Fearless Truthteller. I like a good allegory, but I'm not so keen on fairy tales posing as allegory.

[Dorn]

15. Jeff Daniels is from a little town

I don't know if he wrote the lines he spoke but they ring true, and it is sad that his kids and mine will never know the USA of the 1970s before the devolution that started in the 1980s. There are always cycles in things and maybe if Jeff and others push back against the simplistic forces dragging the US down and that seem so prevalent we have a chance to be great again.

[ybbor]

20. Yes, Chelsea, MI

Near Ann Arbor. He is still active there. Has a small theater there and stays involved. It still has a true main street, and small town atmosphere.

[DissidentVoice]

62. My aunt lived in Chelsea for several years, and quite enjoyed it.

Seeing this sometimes makes me wish we had the extra to pony up for HBO. No way would you see this on broadcast TV in this country.

Living near the Canadian border, we can get CBC here. Watching CBC, which is owned by the Canadian Government, and watching our corporatist networks is like night-and-day.

Here it all has to be sanitised so there aren't any "potty words," but it's perfectly OK to show violence, murder, rape and other atrocities...because it sells! Right-wingers LIKE seeing our massively superior weapon pound a Third World country back to the Stone Age ("shock and awe," remember?). They don't CARE that the people being pounded are human beings with lives, feelings and families...they're just "a bunch of gawdam'd terrorists." To them, an Iraqi citizen on the streets of Baghdad = Osama bin Laden. Never mind that said Iraqi citizen has suffered massively, first under Saddam Hussein, then under the US puppet government.

The far right has always been good at taking bullshit and wrapping it in God, Guns, Guts and the Flag. However, it's still bullshit underneath and it still stinks.

I was born in 1966. My earliest memories politically are of Watergate. My grade school teacher had a hell of a time explaining to a bunch of kids why the President of the United States had to quit his job. I think she said, "Mr Nixon broke the law, he had to quit, and now Mr Ford is the President."

During the Carter Administration, flawed as it was (I think Jimmy was too nice, too moral and too ethical for Washington) I really did feel as good about this country as a pre-adolescent could. I thought it was "neat" that a peanut farmer could become Governor of a state, and then the President. Plus, my mother had told me stories about FDR and how the WPA had got my grandfather from running bathtub gin to feed his family to honest, meaningful work.

It was during the Reagan years, when I became an adult, that my disillusionment and cynicism really started setting in. The era of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous," the emergence of AIDS (but it was their own fault for living a "perverted lifestyle"...I fail to see how that applies to those who DIDN'T cop the disease by unprotected promiscuity), "Dallas," "Dynasty," the "prosperity gospel" and the worship of all things wealthy. Meanwhile, I was growing up in the Rust Belt with my dad working his ass off as a diesel mechanic trying to feed his family...and we were supposed to believe all this "Morning in America" bullshit? Just as long as you waved the Flag, it didn't matter that we were subverting governments around the world. We had to git them gawdamn'd Commies, an' Reagan scared the shit out of the Russkies so bad that Gorby went down and took his country with him.

A great deal of the cynicism is still there for me. We've had two Democratic Administrations since then (both of whom I voted for), but the Democratic Party of today, remade by the DLC to be "electable" in the Age of Reagan, has lost its soul. Granted, half a loaf from Obama or Clinton is worlds better than scraps from the GOP. However, it was incomprehensible to me that in 1994, Bill Clinton rolled over and played dead after the GOP kicked him on health care, and that Barack Obama let Max Baucus kill the public option on his plan. Why didn't either one of them go for full, universal, single-payer health care? They should have known that the Republicans would block any plan they did, so why not go for it all?

Nostalgia for the past is just that - yearning for a time that never truly existed. Even when I was a kid watching "Leave It To Beaver" re-runs, I knew it was fake. My house was never that nice, never that clean and my mother never owned pearls, let alone do the housework wearing them!

We are seriously screwing ourselves, and I don't know if there's a way out anymore.

[ReRe]

16. And yet they still have the gall to stand up and say that in the Halls of Congress...

K&R a million times

... on TV, in town hall meetings. Every time I hear it, I want to puke.

"Back when we were the greatest country in the world, we didn't scare so easy, we reached for the stars, we were informed."

We need to remember some of Jeff Daniels speech and if we actually listen to a Congressman say those words in our presence, stand up and say that indeed this is NOT the greatest nation in the world anymore. CORRECT THEM! Tell them why we are NOT any more.

As far as I'm concerned, that was the best scene in the entire series. Thanks, babylonsister, for posting the best 3 1/2 mins of TV in recent history.

[indepat]

40. Maybe we will be the greatest nation some day if and when our government gives up: empire, global

hegemony, a MIC geared to foster and protect empire and global hegemony, corporate welfare, welfare for the most affluent via a wholly inequitable federal income tax code, a cruel and ruinous drug policy, including extraordinarily harsh and cruel punishment of minor drug offenders, a hideously inadequate minimum wage, the highly favorable treatment of unearned income, egregious income inequality, and slave-wages compensation, for starters. Our Federal government, if we are to be the greatest nation, must begin to promote the general, rather than corporate and special-interests, welfare, starting with implementing universal health care, mandatory paid sick leave, addressing all public health issues, making infrastructure repairs and improvements, implementing sensible gun control laws, and further improving the standard of living for the masses which will lead to greater longevity, better overall health, and lower infant and maternal mortality. The ideology espoused by domestic right-wing extremists has long dominated the national agenda through government providing for the welfare of large corporations and the most affluent rather than for the general welfare.

[ReRe]

42. Absofuckinglutely!

You said all that in two or three breaths, didn't you? As I read that, I could hear it. I could hear you standing up and saying it! But, do you know what would happen if you stood up in public and tried to say that to your Congressman? They would probably muzzle you and drag you out. And if they couldn't gag you on the way out, and you kept saying your piece, they would stop and taze you. That's the society we live in now. They can stand up and pontificate their lies and promises for hours saying what a wonderful country the USA is, but you can't stand up and tell them, even tactfully and respectfully, where they are so wrong... what it's like to be living in this country outside the DC beltway, in the REAL America.

This is the kind of town hall meeting I would like to have: Congressman sitting front and center in audience. And one by one, anyone who wanted to tell their story or air their grievances would stand at the podium and pontificate on THEM. Turn the fucking table. No screaming or shouting allowed. What think?

[indepat]

46. Should I stand up and say this on a street-corner in my right-wing neighborhood in this very red,

red-neck state, I would probably pummeled. Neither would a brown-shirt knocking on the door be surprising.

[ReRe]

47. You'd be tarred and feathered...

...pilloried, possibly stoned, or burned at the stake.

[supercats]

17. That Was Brilliant!

It's ironic that brutal honesty has to come from a made up scripted television show on HBO, and not from our real political leaders.

[zeemike]

27. No question about it, the most honest thing said on TV,

And we should watch this over and over again until we see what he was doing...confronting dishonesty
then we should do it too..it is the only way to put a stop to this.
Thank you Babylonsister for reminding us...

[99th_Monkey]

29. This is freaking AWESOME

right up there with Geo. Carlin, Bill Hicks, and that amazing scene from
that 1976 movie NETWORK where a news anchor goes off the rails on a
brilliantly scathing rant, asking viewers to go to their windows and scream
"I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT TAKING THIS ANYMORE!!" or something
like that.

THANKS for posting. It's going on my FB wall.

[NoMoreWarNow]

32. the first minute and a half was honest, more like

[geckosfeet]

34. Love it. Very theatrical - not sure about most honest.

And, you mean angels aren't real?

[drm604]

36. Too bad I don't have HBO.

It figures that this would be on a premium channel.

[rury]

38. TRUTH...TRU 'DAT!

[Cleita]

39. "...just in case you accidentally walk into a voting booth some day...

[oldandhappy]

48. WOW

[Ian Iam]

50. The truly sad thing?

No foreign power has done this to you. Certainly, Mr bin Laden launched an attack against you, but he did not restrict the rights and protections of the people America once had.

Thread recced.

[intaglio]

55. Rather like ourselves

[KansDem]

57. Are you referring to 9/11?

Certainly, Mr bin Laden launched an attack against you

Not according to the FBI:

Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.

...unless "other terrorist attacks throughout the world" includes 9/11.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

[Meaniepants]

51. the rubes

Don't want to change a thing, all is good. American exceptionalism.

[Historic NY]

68. "Except what"......

they want to roll the country back to the 1850 while shooting for 1950.

Being able to bomb the rest of the world to glass doesn't make us (US) great or exceptional.

[TM99]

56. Thank you DU

I don't often watch TV. I rely on recommendations for the shows I have watched in the past, and yes, they almost always are on premium channels.

We recently watched the Borgias, which is exceptional. A post on DU mentioned House of Cards. We began watching it just the other night, and we have already finished 5 episodes. It is brilliant and saddening. I turned to my partner the other night and said I really missed Sorkin and the West Wing.

I come on tonight and watch this clip. I get her to watch it as well. What is this show? Finally, an answer - the Newsroom. We will begin watching it tonight.

Thank you for sharing this clip. It was very powerful, and it was very true.

[gtar100]

58. Brilliant speech but...

there is not one media outlet that could reach the people that actually need to hear it that would give a person the time and attention to speak so articulately.

Instead, red state, patriot TV watchers are force-fed a steady lineup of talkers who care more about saying what they have to say than actually having a dialog involving listening, considering, evaluating, entertaining, disputing with sound reason, and on and on. In the true liberal media I get some of that. But in some respects, they are preaching to the choir. I won't be satisfied until the repugs are made to actually hear this (or the like) over and over until they can no longer dodge the truth with their stupid mind games they always play.

I'm not holding my breath.

By the way, it wasn't fair to pin this question on a college student. I've met many astute young students who don't fall for the "America is the greatest country" bullshit. They see right through it. Not everyone buys into the propaganda.

[thetruthhurtsforsome]

59. Was America ever really great in the first place?

Bunch of rich white guys are tired of British Corporate Control and replace it with American Corporate Control after fighting a physical war for control of Americas resources. Freedom only applies to White Males, women and people of color need not apply. Many Americans are only property and remain that way until the 1865. Women are not allowed to vote until 1920 and Black Americas do not even receive full rights until the 1960’s. We slaughtered the native people and take their land with government approval mostly for Corporate Control and stealing of resources.

The America many dream about is the Beaver Cleaver, Donna Reed America, the one on TV that never really existed.
Besides having the ability to use our military to kick the shit out of Any country we really wanted to, yes we could but we don’t it does not look good on TV to carpet bomb a nation plus it is not as PROFITABLE for the Corporations, long draw out low intensity war is a BIG money maker.

What is so great about America? People could go round and round on an answer to a question that is totally subjective and all answers would be correct because of the nature of the question.

How greatness should be measured….


“The measure of a country's greatness should be based on how well it cares for its most vulnerable populations” Mahatma Gandhi
We do a really fucking shitty job at it.

[Carolina]

61. K&R

or perhaps K$$$R.

What happened to America in part, one not-so-small part, was the prusuit and glorification of money, the enrichment of the rich, the entrenchment of money with power, consumerism as a way of life...

This is a moving clip and the Arachnophobia guy (can't think of his name) does a great job.

Thanks for posting.

And thanks to my valentines. whoever you are. You made my day!

[magical thyme]

67. sorry, but the obnoxious treatment of that young woman turned me off right from the start

Also the language. I'm not a prude, but when you need to use the f word over and over to make a point, you weaken your argument. I guarantee that his rude behavior did not persuade anybody to listen or change their minds. It only hardened people who were already in disagreement.

The factual statements were good. He left out that our great economic systems sucks up 33% of the worlds resources to support 5% of its population in style, so we're probably #1 in pampered.

The nostalgia, however, was for a past that never existed and for the record our artists are no better than other artists around the world.

We did some good and we did a lot of bad. We were founded on genocide and built on the backs of slaves. We are not the only people in the world to cure some diseases, and we've probably created more disease than we've cured anyway. And just because we "won" the race to put a man on the moon doesn't mean jack-shit in the overall scheme of things.

In other words, we're like every other empire that ever existed. We are like every other human that ever existed. Not total fuck ups, but not so awesome in our awesomeness, either.

[icarusxat]

73. "I'm not a prude, but when you need to use the f word..."

"I'm not a prude, but when you need to use the f word over and over to make a point, you weaken your argument..." and yet that is the tack you took.

Too many posts here are tripping over the minor stuff and missing the bigger point. Most of the people I have met who are Fox news, Rush Lamebrain, rightwing nut jobs are women. Not all women are that easily fooled and not all white guys are evil. But, the choice on the part of the producers of this show to put a female in the role of question giver was a good one. The look of surprise, questioning, and perhaps changing her world view speaks to the intelligence of women and the ability to learn. A white fratboy type would have dug in his heels and huffed and puffed...

Seeing what you want to see? That is a problem. Looking deeper is the answer.

We really did pass through a time in this country where we dared to dream bigger than how many zeros were at the end of the paycheck. We weren't perfect, never have been; but, there was a time when we believed that we could become a more perfect union...

[magical thyme]

86. I don't consider rudeness or condescension "small stuff"

It is disrespectful and mean-spirited.

"A white fratboy type would have dug in his heels and huffed and puffed..."

Stereotype much?

What I saw was not great writing of a script that didn't help the cause and a lot of overacting, from the faces in the audience to the faces on the stage.

I was disappointed. I think it could have been far, far more effectively done.

And I respond to the rudeness as a woman who has been verbally abused and publicly humiliated throughout my life by conceited, arrogant assholes who assumed that I am stupid because I am female and ugly (versus assuming I was stupid because I was blond or a "sorority girl" or "not white enough" or whatever other prejudice they hold about me.).

[Smilo]

70. Once again it takes fiction to show fact

and along that same stream of thought - why is it that it is the comedians that always shine the spotlight on the ugly truth?

This country is no longer great because those in power are afraid to acknowledge the truth, let alone speak it.

[stopbush]

72. Typical strawman TV crapola. As fake as anything you'd see on Fox News.

And the reason why people laugh at "liberal" TV shows.

This show sucks, big time.

[Bucky]

80. Thank you

Sorkin's one of those brilliant writers who becomes a self parody once success puts him beyond the control of editors.

[The CCC]

76. The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER...

The thing is we used to aspire to those great things/ideas. We were always trying to be a more perfect union. We've given up on great ideas. Now we search for the lowest common denominator, and sometimes even below that. We have become cynical, and self serving. Whom has the most toys, and who won the last election. Have become the mantras of our day. The goal isn't the end of the journey it is merely the start of a new one. Not that we will ever be finished in reaching perfection.

[Xipe Totec]

77. That's a very high bar, I think

And, yet, I think you're right.

This is the most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER...

This was awesome.

Thank you.

[Bucky]

78. I don't disagree, but the sanctimoniousness comes off a little saccharine.

[fishwax]

81. It's pretty honest up to the "let me tell you something sorority girl" part. Pure hokum after that

I see nothing honest about saying hers is the worst period generation period ever, or that we were a better country in the past because we were "more manly" or that we didn't beat our chests and passed all these laws for moral reasons and so on. It just seems like your basic nostalgia, with all the expected distortions, the lack of consideration for the role of women and minorities in this great and beautiful past that never existed, and so on.

[The CCC]

82. t's pretty honest up to the "let me tell you something sorority girl" part. Pure hokum after that

It wasn't all that great for a lot of white males either. But at least we tried. From the Great Society, to the Me Generation, to whom has the most toys, to worshiping celebrity just because they're famous.

[fishwax]

83. Some tried. Some worked actively to keep others down. As now.

[Number23]

84. Thank you, fishwax.

Thank you for getting it. Seriously.

It just seems like your basic nostalgia, with all the expected distortions, the lack of consideration for the role of women and minorities in this great and beautiful past that never existed, and so on.

Exactly.

[fishwax]

85. .

[KurtNYC]

87. Here is 2 minutes with 10x more truth...