Game of Thrones 3.8 "Second Sons" (spoilers)

[NewJeffCT]

Please note, I have not seen this episode yet - I'm just putting this out there now so we can get some discussion started on tonight's episode. I've read the books, so I know that Second Sons means more than just Tyrion (second son of Tywin) and Jon Snow (second son of Eddard) and Bran Stark (second non-bastard son of Eddard)

Writers: David Benioff & D.B. Weiss
Director: Michelle MacLaren<
Runtime: 57 mins
Synopsis: King’s Landing hosts a wedding, and Tyrion and Sansa spend the night together. Daenerys meets the Titan’s Bastard. Davos demands proof from Melisandre. Sam and Gilly meet an older gentleman.

Only two more episodes after tonight.

Really hoping they show Ser Barristan and the Titan's Bastard...

[warrior1]

1. I take it

spoiler alert











































Sansa marries Tyrion.

[NewJeffCT]

2. I believe that is happening tonight

Poor Sansa... though, better Tyrion than Joffrey.

[warrior1]

3. you know that

next week Behind the Candelabra will be showing instead of GoT's.

It will return the following Sunday.

[NewJeffCT]

4. No, I did not know that

thanks for telling me.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

28. Tyrion is far and away the best Lannister to associate yourself with.

The dude's awesome, really. Gets all the best lines in the show.

Although I will say they are making Jaime a lot more sympathetic than he initially appeared.

[NewJeffCT]

30. True

He's certainly better than Joffrey or Lancel... however, Sansa is an innocent who grew up dreaming of marrying a handsome & brave knight like Ser Loras, and she just had that taken from her last episode.

Now, she's marrying a guy who is known to be a drunken lecher who frequents brothels...and was just disowned from being heir to Casterly Rock, the seat of House Lannister.

[siligut]

32. So true, Tyrion is awesome

GOT casting is spot-on in general and Peter Dinklage plays Tyrion better than I could have imagined him.

Yes, really quite a turnaround for Jaime, imprisonment, disfigurement and winning the friendship of Brienne can do that to a man, but he will be back to being a big swinging dick soon enough.

[BainsBane]

43. Why do you keep saying poor Sansa?

Tyrion is short, okay. He's still the best man in King's Landing. Better than Joffrey and better than the gay guy too. I feel worse for Tyrion because he can't marry the woman he loves. Sansa wasn't in love with her previous suitors.

I find Sansa insipid. She's the most boring character on the show.

[NewJeffCT]

46. well, I do feel sorry for her

she grew up thinking the stories about brave, handsome & chivalric knights courting beautiful & pure young maidens were true, and has found out the hard way that it's not. She's still in the process of learning her lessons, though.

I wasn't a big fan of her in the books early on, but her character grew on me later on in the series, but that's still more about her potential to do some things, than what she actually does.

[DebJ]

82. i find it interesting that only Sansa's wolf has died.

The TV version is completely ignoring the connections between the Stark and their wolves.
When only Sansa's wolf died so far, and she turned out to be such an insipid character,
I was wondering if there would be some connection with the loss of her wolf.

[siligut]

85. Yes, interesting connection

Especially because Sansa was at partly fault for the death of her wolf.

[Baitball Blogger]

6. Wouldn't it be poetic justice if she pleads with her maid to

take over her wifely duty?

win-win!

[NewJeffCT]

5. Only a little over an hour to go now

should be good.

[siligut]

7. WooHoo! Mero lands on the scene with machismo to spare

You may get what you/we hope for

[NewJeffCT]

12. Not too different than his character in the book

though, he lasted a bit longer in the book

[siligut]

26. Were you hoping for the scene with Barristan, Mero and Daenerys?

"Really hoping they show Ser Barristan and the Titan's Bastard"

But David Benioff & D.B. Weiss killed him off too soon?

[NewJeffCT]

62. Yes

In the books, there were two companies - the Second Sons with Mero as the head, and the Stormcrows, with Daario as one of their 3 captains. The Stormcrows later combined with Dany and her Unsullied to surprise the Second Sons and rout them, sending Mero to fleeing.

He later shaves his beard and then surprises Dany on the beach and seems poised to kill her when Arstan Whitebeard steps in and kicks his ass with a staff. Loved that scene in the books - basically proved the old man still had it, and you knew that he was more than Strong Belwas' squire. (He was only later revealed to be Ser Barristan...)

[Baitball Blogger]

8. What is the first of the three names that were set up for a hit with the King's Blood?

I heard Rob Stark, Jeffrey Baratheon. But who is the first?

[Hayabusa]

9. Probably

Balon Greyjoy

[NewJeffCT]

16. Theon's loving father

was the other name

[BainsBane]

44. Joffrey's leach spurted blood

I hope that means he bites it soon.

[dr.strangelove]

25. Balon Greyjoy - they are the remaining "Kings" in the "War of the Five Kings"

Renly was 1, but he is dead, already killed by the Lord of Light. Now Stannis asked the Lord of Light to kill Greyjoy, Robb and the blond demon spawn. Have not ready the books, but I suspect that wish will come true.

[Baitball Blogger]

10. I want more! I want more!

[NewJeffCT]

11. Now we have to wait two weeks

Liberace is on next Sunday

[Baitball Blogger]

13. Boycott Liberace!

[warrior1]

14. Cersei ... “If you ever call me sister again, I'll have you strangled in your sleep,” ...

[NewJeffCT]

15. Cersei is such a sweetheart

too bad she couldn't be set up with Mero, the Titan's Bastard.

[azurnoir]

60. perhaps next time she should call Cersei

Mom or dowager

[azurnoir]

68. I'm thinking Cersei and Ramsay Snowe

wouldn't they make a pair?

[NewJeffCT]

73. I wouldn't wish him on anybody

including Cersei

[Liberal Veteran]

17. Poor Olenna...that match was even too complicated for her sharp wit to sort out.

But God, every line from her mouth is golden!

Still...line of the night goes to Tyrion: So my watch begins.

[Iggo]

18. That line floated out there for a second...

...and then I laughed so loud I woke up the old people!

[BainsBane]

45. I love Tyrion

[Duer 157099]

19. Now that we have a few seasons under our belts, someone needs to

edit the storylines so that, for example, we can watch one long episode just about Danaerys, one about Jon and Sam, one about Bran, etc.

That's how I read the books and I'd like to see the show this way too.

C'mon someone.

[NewJeffCT]

21. I'm sure somebody will do that

though, it might be difficult across seasons.

[Solly Mack]

20. I finished re-reading all the books. (again)

I find more to to ponder each time I read the series. I'm such a purist when it comes to books I enjoy. Often makes movies/shows a wee bit disappointing for me. Still, I do enjoy watching GOT.

I really want to wash the stink of Melisandre off Gendry. Did not like that at all. Like Gendry but not a Melisandre fan. Don't much like Stannis either.

Looking forward to the next wedding very much. Not looking forward to the wedding after that.

I don't much like Sansa but I do feel bad for her. I wish the wedding cloak scene had gone the way of the book. I wouldn't have given an inch (teehee) either. Cheered her for that.

Loved the ravens in the weirwood tree...finally clicked about another heart tree the ravens favor along the river lands.

I read the books and update notes and add new things I find with each new book. I'm so pathetic. lol

[NewJeffCT]

22. well, Gendry is replacing Edric Storm

from the books.

I'm looking forward to what happens to Sansa next season.

[Solly Mack]

23. Yes, I agree he's playing that role. And I'm looking forward

to Davos rescuing him.

I hope she crushes LF - literally - in both. Maybe With Stoneheart's help. Maybe Arya sticks him with the pointy end a few times too. The wolves can get their bites in as well. Then maybe a dragon kiss or three.
And then a weirwood jabs him through the eye with a branch.

But maybe I'm just a wee bit harsh.

[NewJeffCT]

24. There was an article recently on Elio Garcia

The guy who runs westeros.org and the person that GRRM goes to as another set of eyes to make sure things are consistent historically in Westeros (Martin got criticized by fans for having Renly's eyes as one color in Game of Thrones, then another in A Clash of Kings...)

But, Garcia mentioned how he had read all the chapters that got moved from Dances with Dragons to Winds of Winter, including the "controversial" Sansa chapter. I'll see if I can find the link.

[Solly Mack]

27. Yeah. That's kinda got me worried.

I don't much care if she kills LF or SR but I detest the thought of her being treated like JP (and LF, Cersei, and everyone else involved in that should die a grisly death) or worse.

[NewJeffCT]

29. I replied late in that thread

and, I said that Martin has already had incest, rape, maiming, castrating, and the killing of brothers, husbands, wives, etc by their relatives throughout the books, what possibly could a Sansa chapter have in it that could be controversial? Sex with [font color=white]LF or her being married off to Harry the Heir and him beating her wouldn't be all that different, I think? Even her killing LF or SR isn't that out of line, after what happened to Bran and then Lysa Arryn.[/font]

[Solly Mack]

31. LOL! Excellent point!

[Hayabusa]

72. Wait, one already known appearance continuity error?

That could blow one theory out of the water...

[siligut]

33. Good plan for Baelish, he is a snake

Somehow Sansa has become the object of my loathing. She is pitiful and weak. She has always been an idealistic twit, but I am just starting to dislike her now. I gather that I am probably the only person who thinks this way.

[Iggo]

35. Re: Sansa.

I'm the opposite. Couldn't stand her in the book. Pulling like hell for her in the show.

Weird.

[siligut]

36. I wasn't fond of her in the books, but didn't feel strongly

And I initially sympathized with her in the TV show. She is a weak person, she is being used and abused by stronger people and I should have compassion for her, I feel bad that I don't.

And because Shae, whom I adore, likes her, I really have to question my feelings.

Yes, weird is the right word.

[Solly Mack]

38. She's my least favorite Stark.

I don't much like Catelyn either. Sansa is largely a product of the molding she's received from her Mother and Septa Mordane, continued to receive from the Lannisters, and now gets from LF. She's gaining a new perspective as Alayne. Some of it positive. Still, the final product remains to be seen. I'm not hopeful. lol

[siligut]

39. Thank you for telling me

Maybe it is Sansa as compared to Arya, that puts me at odds with her. Your point regarding molding rings true, as the first daughter, she is molded after her mother, though she lacks Catelyn's strength. Even as Alayne, Sansa is the plaything of another strong character.

I am so glad to know I am not the only one to dislike, poor, sweet Sansa.

[JoDog]

80. The comparison of Sansa and Arya

in the books (esp. Feast for Crows) is an interesting one that Martin deftly sets up. While Arya has trouble surrendering her identity and personality while training in Braavos, Sansa quickly does so while hiding out with LF, to the point where her chapters are not named "Sansa" but "Alayne". Even when she and LF are alone, she maintains her guise. It takes longer for Arya's chapters to take a new title "Cat of the Canals". But Arya still keeps relics of her past--her new name is her mother's nickname, and she hides Needle. Sansa gives up everything, even her hair color.

It brings up a the question of which of the sisters will prove to be most adept at the vital skill of hiding in plain sight--Arya, the one who is obviously studying it, or Sansa, the more clandestine student? It also brings the sisters closer together in personality while they are separated by geography.

[siligut]

81. I will have to read that

I am wanting to reread the books now that I have a general overview of the story-line and characters. Very fascinating, thank you.

[NewJeffCT]

83. In Dance with Dragons, though

spoiler text added below for those who haven't read it.
[font color=white]she is "The Blind Girl" and the "Ugly Little Girl" - so, not quite the same as Cat of the Canals. Arya is hiding, though, on another continent, while Sansa is in Westeros in the Eyrie - isolated, but not totally cut off. I can see the Meereenese knot bringing Dany, Ser Barristan, Tyrion, Jorah, Victarion, Marwyn, etc back to Westeros. But, how does Arya get back? With Justin Massey (on his way to Braavos to hire sellswords for Stannis)? or Some other way? [/font]

[BainsBane]

53. Catelyn was great last season

and the actress who plays her is among the best on the show, second only to Peter Dinklage, IMO.

[Solly Mack]

63. I don't much like her character in either the book or the show.

I do enjoy watching Michelle Fairley portray her, however.

Tyrion's wit is fun to read. I love Peter Dinklage....he brings that wit to life in a way no one else could.

[BainsBane]

64. I haven't read the books

but have just started, so no spoilers!

[Solly Mack]

65. Sorry!

[Chan790]

66. Catelyn's my least favorite...and ever more so the more I think on it and reread further.

If you use recursive analysis... (ie. this happened because of this which occurred due to this...backwards-looking logic all-in-all...but if you trace every action back to its motivation and antecedent...) it's all Cate's fault. All of it. She's a villain...certainly a lesser one than a lot of other people, but a banal insidious evil born of pride, simple-wittedness, rash behavior and moral-rigidity. Cate's a fun-house mirror reflection of her husband...Eddard without honor, intelligence, noble character or a lick of good sense.

...and she feels responsible for none of it.

[Solly Mack]

67. Kidnapping Tyrion wasn't the most intelligent or cunning of actions.

I wouldn't exactly call it the root cause of events that followed but it did create circumstances that made it far easier for those events to take place....and sooner than they might would have. I wouldn't lay the blame on Catelyn for any of her known actions regarding her past relationship with Littlefinger either. (as children/young adults)

I think Jaime would have gone after Ned regardless. He was still chafing over a past event. The kidnapping gave him an easier open to confront Ned. Made a lot of things easier.

Ned's assumption that all will behave honorably when given the facts was his own contribution to his death. He greatly underestimated the corruption at court and the depravity of others. I say that and I loved his character.

I don't really see her as a villain, however. Though hate more so than justice will motivate her second nature.

[NewJeffCT]

70. She arrested Tyrion based on the letter she got from her sister

saying that Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn, and also because Littlefinger told her the dagger belonged to Tyrion.

[Solly Mack]

71. Yes, I know. Still stupid.

[NewJeffCT]

69. You can also say that

it's Lysa Arryn's fault - it was her letter to Catelyn that Cersei had Jon Arryn poisoned that set off the whole chain of events.

And, while Cat's arrest of Tyrion started the war in the Riverlands when Tywin sent The Mountain to rape & pillage, it was Lysa taking charge of Tyrion that allowed Tyrion to go free via the Trial by Combat. I believe Cat counseled another course, and she had urged Lysa to join with Robb and the River Lords, which would have made them a hugely formidable force, as I believe the Vale of Arryn has even more men at their disposal than either the North or the River Lands.

It was also Robb going against his mother's advice and sending Theon to treat with the Ironborn that led directly to the fall of Winterfell. I think she said to send a Mallister instead of Theon.

With the North, the Riverlands and the Vale attacking from the North, would Dorne have been so amenable to the Myrcella-Trystane Martell betrothal? Would Highgarden with Renly and most of the Stormlands even united to oppose the Lannisters with three of the seven kingdoms already opposed to the Lannisters? Would the Ironborn attacked the North, or would they have seen Lannisport or Casterly Rock as easier pickings?

[BainsBane]

48. I've never liked her

She's a colossal bore.

[siligut]

51. YES! Another one

I think my loathing actually culminated because of her treatment of Tyrion.

[NewJeffCT]

76. I've read the books 3 times each now

the third time through, I looked for R+L=J clues and wanted more background on the Tower of Joy (sounds like Ron Jeremy's biography...)

But, I also remember having some "holy shit" moments when reading through them:

Example Mirri Maz Duur - the evil sorceress who was responsible for the death of Dany's child - cited some training she received in her arts to Ser Jorah, one being a Maester named Marwen. Well, Marwen's name never comes up again until Sam gets to Old Town, and suddenly Marwen (now at Arch-Maester) drops everything to go see Dany.

but, when going through A Game of Thrones that last time, I remember going, "holy shit" when I read Marwen's name - I had completely forgotten that.

(Or, that Anguy from the Brotherhood without Banners won the archery prize at the Hand's Tourney in the beginning of A Game of Thrones)

[Solly Mack]

77. That's why I enjoy reading them again and again.

I keep finding things. Keep making connections. I plan to read them all again before Summer's end.

At Ron Jeremy's place the fact that the 3 left to guard the tower were such notables - the best of the best - I think that says a lot. Otherwise, why not go guard the heir and keep him safe from Robert? (Unless they were guarding one already)

I don't think love of Rhaegar was the only thing keeping them in place.

Course, so many people think R+L=J, it could be just too obvious to be true. Which would suck.

I look forward to learning more about Marwyn's character and the battle for power between the factions of the Citadel.

I worry about Sam sleeping close to Pate. Because we don't know why (who) Pate is there (for) and I have a soft spot for Sam.

[NewJeffCT]

79. I believe some think

Pate is Jaqen H'gar.

[Solly Mack]

84. with good reason.

[bluedigger]

34. I had a major problem with the final scene.

Sam ran off and left the knife lying there. He's going to regret that.

[NewJeffCT]

37. I was saying that as well

I even yelled at the screen to "get the damn dagger"

[siligut]

40. I thought the same thing, but don't believe he needs it again

It is just good sense to hang onto a dragonglass dagger. Sam doesn't have the heart of a warrior, his adrenalin was too high for him to think it all through. I like him and Gilly together.

Did you make-out what Daario said after drawing the square coin?

[NewJeffCT]

41. Valar Morghulis

Valyrian for "All Men Must Die"

Also what Jaqen H'Gar told Arya last year in the season 2 finale.

[siligut]

42. Yes, it sounded so familiar

And Jaqen H'Gar, in the TV show is my favorite character. You are a wealth of information NewJeffCT

[NewJeffCT]

47. If you haven't read the books

you might like book Jaqen even better.

[BainsBane]

50. I didn't know who that was

since I haven't read the books some of the names get by me. So I searched google images and found this:

[siligut]

56. I didn't like his looks in the books

And while Tom Wlaschiha is more attractive than the book Jaqen, it isn't his looks that I find so interesting.

So now you remember him?

[BainsBane]

57. Yes, I remember him from the three names

but not before.

[siligut]

54. I want to reread the books

Right now I am using them as references, but plan to reread them.

[Duer 157099]

52. He sort of looked like Jaqen too

I wondered if it were possibly him? Or some version of him.

[siligut]

55. I tend to think of Jaqen as a trained assassin

So there could be other shape-shifters like him. However, I don't know of any connection between Daario and Jaqen.

[NewJeffCT]

59. some people think

Syrio Forel and Jaqen are one & the same, but I'm pretty sure they're not.

They're both from Braavos, and Syrio died "off camera" - which means you can't trust that he's really dead for real.

[siligut]

61. In GOT even if one dies on camera, they may not stay dead

I appreciated Arya's relationships with both Syrio Forel and Jaqen, but had not considered that they were the same faceless man. Jaqen allowed Arya to know his nature, surely he would inform her if he had been Syrio.

[siligut]

58. Last seen, Jaqen was no longer Jaqen

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Faceless_Man

The Guild of the Faceless Men is a religious society of assassins who worship the Many-Faced God, a god of death.

[BainsBane]

49. I was shouting

"get the obsidian." Obviously it saved his life.

[Matariki]

74. Jon Snow is not Eddard's son

just you wait and see...

[NewJeffCT]

75. I think that's pretty much a given

that he is really the son of (spoilers) [font color=white]Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.[/font]

[Matariki]

78. yup.

[Baitball Blogger]

88. Which would give him direct blood ascendency to the throne?

Who has a better claim?

[siligut]

89. As far as I can tell, yes

The son of [font color="white"]Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen[/font], would be heir to the Iron Throne. I don't know if anyone has a better claim, I don't think so, not even Daenerys.

This is an intriguing idea!

[NewJeffCT]

90. It really depends

There is another player in the mix revealed in A Dance with Dragons that I will leave out for now.

Aerys Targaryen, the Mad King, had three children:
1) Rhaegar
2) Viserys
3) Daenerys

Rhaegar Targaryen was the crown prince and eldest child of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen, so any non-bastard child of Rhaegar's would have first claim to the throne. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell of Dorne, whose two children were Aegon and Rhaenys. Those two, along with their mother Elia, were killed by Gregor Clegane after the fall of the Mad King, Aerys Targaryen. Since Rhaegar (killed by Robert), Elia and their two children are dead, that means the next in line to the throne are (were) Viserys Targaryen and Daenerys as the next eldest children of Aerys. Viserys died getting his golden crown, leaving Daenerys as first in line.

spoilers follow below:
[font color=white]
Unless, Rhaegar - in a fit of passion for Lyanna Stark - divorced Elia and married Lyanna Stark, or married Lyanna as a second wife (there is some history/precedent for the Targaryens having more than one spouse at a time...), which would mean Jon Snow has a greater claim than Danerys. But, if it was just a fit of passion and Jon is a bastard, that means Dany is the sole legitimate heir. In the books, the speculation is that the mysterious Howland Reed (Ned Stark's BFF, and father to Jojen and Meera) may know the whole story, as he is the only one still alive that was present when Lyanna died. [/font]

[NewJeffCT]

86. If Game of Thrones took place on Facebook - episode 8

Maybe their best yet - love the back & forth about penis leeches, and Missendei being fluent in the language of moisture vaporators...

http://www.happyplace.com/24039/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-8

[Hayabusa]

87. Theon's posts

make it even better.