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Forlorn... (Original Post) Ron Obvious Jan 2012 OP
Do you know where the word trivia comes from? rug Jan 2012 #1
Of Course! Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #2
BZZZZ. rug Jan 2012 #3
Dammit! Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #4
I love this stuff too. rug Jan 2012 #5
Or you could look it up on www.etymonline.com kentauros Jan 2012 #9
Ooh, link bookmarked! rug Jan 2012 #12
Because I use the browser Opera kentauros Jan 2012 #16
Interesting! Okay, frogmarch Jan 2012 #6
Not from where many people think it comes from. Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #7
Thank you. I'd heard of frogmarch Jan 2012 #8
Here you go: kentauros Jan 2012 #10
Very interesting! Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #11
Ciao! kentauros Jan 2012 #14
No, I haven't seen it yet. Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #17
Wow! Thanks! frogmarch Jan 2012 #13
When I first looked that up on Etymology Online kentauros Jan 2012 #15
Bugs, right? Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #18
I'm probably not as avid about this topic as you appear to be, kentauros Jan 2012 #19
 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
2. Of Course!
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:31 PM
Jan 2012

Last edited Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)

The places in ancient Rome where three (tri) roads came together and people exchanged gossip.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. BZZZZ.
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:35 PM
Jan 2012

The Trivium were the three lesser subjects of medieval education. The four major subjects were the Quadrivium.

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
4. Dammit!
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:21 PM
Jan 2012

Dammit! According to Wikipedia, you're entirely correct!

All my life I thought it came from the sort of gossip exchanged at a trivium. In fairness, Wikipedia does mention this in passing. Thanks!

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
9. Or you could look it up on www.etymonline.com
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:49 PM
Jan 2012

and end up being less silly

trivia
"trivialities, things of little consequence," 1902, popularized as title of a book by L.P. Smith, from L. trivia, pl. of trivium "place where three roads meet" (see trivial).

trivial
early 15c., "of the trivium," from M.L. trivialis, from trivium "first three of the seven liberal arts," from L., lit. "place where three roads meet," from tri- "three" + via "road." The basic notion is of "that which may be found anywhere, commonplace, vulgar." The meaning "ordinary" (1580s) and "insignificant" (1590s) were in L. trivialis "commonplace, vulgar," originally "of or belonging to the crossroads."

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
16. Because I use the browser Opera
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 06:18 PM
Jan 2012

whenever you open a new tab, you get a page called their "Speed Dial". I have this one as one of the nine for direct access

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
7. Not from where many people think it comes from.
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:32 PM
Jan 2012

It's an urban legend that it's an acronym for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" or "Fornication Under Charles the King".

I'm fluent enough in Dutch and German to known that "Fokken" means breeding. In fact, I remember a Dutch horse breeder (Paardefokker) being interviewed by the BBC, and upon being asked what she did for a living, she replied "I Fok Horses".

An embarrassed silence ensued.

frogmarch

(12,153 posts)
8. Thank you. I'd heard of
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:42 PM
Jan 2012

the urban legends you mentioned, but I had not heard of the Dutch word "fokken" and its connection to the F word. By the way, what a funny story! "I fok horses" indeed. lol

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
10. Here you go:
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:51 PM
Jan 2012
fuck (v.)
until recently a difficult word to trace, in part because it was taboo to the editors of the original OED when the "F" volume was compiled, 1893-97. Written form only attested from early 16c. OED 2nd edition cites 1503, in the form fukkit; earliest appearance of current spelling is 1535 -- "Bischops ... may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit" (Sir David Lyndesay, "Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaits"), but presumably it is a much more ancient word than that, simply one that wasn't written in the kind of texts that have survived from O.E. and M.E. Buck cites proper name John le Fucker from 1278. The word apparently is hinted at in a scurrilous 15c. poem, titled "Flen flyys," written in bastard Latin and M.E. The relevant line reads:

Non sunt in celi
quia fuccant uuiuys of heli


"They (the monks) are not in heaven because they fuck the wives of (the town of) Ely." Fuccant is pseudo-Latin, and in the original it is written in cipher. The earliest examples of the word otherwise are from Scottish, which suggests a Scandinavian origin, perhaps from a word akin to Norwegian dialectal fukka "copulate," or Swedish dialectal focka "copulate, strike, push," and fock "penis." Another theory traces it to M.E. fyke, fike "move restlessly, fidget," which also meant "dally, flirt," and probably is from a general North Sea Germanic word; cf. M.Du. fokken, Ger. ficken "fuck," earlier "make quick movements to and fro, flick," still earlier "itch, scratch;" the vulgar sense attested from 16c. This would parallel in sense the usual M.E. slang term for "have sexual intercourse," swive, from O.E. swifan "to move lightly over, sweep" (see swivel). But OED remarks these "cannot be shown to be related" to the English word. Chronology and phonology rule out Shipley's attempt to derive it from M.E. firk "to press hard, beat."

Germanic words of similar form (f + vowel + consonant) and meaning 'copulate' are numerous. One of them is G. ficken. They often have additional senses, especially 'cheat,' but their basic meaning is 'move back and forth.' ... Most probably, fuck is a borrowing from Low German and has no cognates outside Germanic. (Liberman)

French foutre and Italian fottere look like the English word but are unrelated, derived rather from L. futuere, which is perhaps from PIE base *bhau(t)- "knock, strike off," extended via a figurative use "from the sexual application of violent action" (Shipley; cf. the sexual slang use of bang, etc.). Popular and Internet derivations from acronyms (and the "pluck yew" fable) are merely ingenious trifling. The O.E. word was hæman, from ham "dwelling, home," with a sense of "take home, co-habit." Fuck was outlawed in print in England (by the Obscene Publications Act, 1857) and the U.S. (by the Comstock Act, 1873). As a noun, it dates from 1670s. The word may have been shunned in print, but it continued in conversation, especially among soldiers during WWI.

It became so common that an effective way for the soldier to express this emotion was to omit this word. Thus if a sergeant said, 'Get your ----ing rifles!' it was understood as a matter of routine. But if he said 'Get your rifles!' there was an immediate implication of urgency and danger. (John Brophy, "Songs and Slang of the British Soldier: 1914-1918," pub. 1930)

The legal barriers broke down in the 20th century, with the "Ulysses" decision (U.S., 1933) and "Lady Chatterley's Lover" (U.S., 1959; U.K., 1960). Johnson excluded the word, and fuck wasn't in a single English language dictionary from 1795 to 1965. "The Penguin Dictionary" broke the taboo in the latter year. Houghton Mifflin followed, in 1969, with "The American Heritage Dictionary," but it also published a "Clean Green" edition without the word, to assure itself access to the lucrative public high school market.

The abbreviation F (or eff) probably began as euphemistic, but by 1943 it was being used as a cuss word, too. In 1948, the publishers of "The Naked and the Dead" persuaded Norman Mailer to use the euphemism fug instead. When Mailer later was introduced to Dorothy Parker, she greeted him with, "So you're the man who can't spell 'fuck' " (The quip sometimes is attributed to Tallulah Bankhead). Hemingway used muck in "For whom the Bell Tolls" (1940). The major breakthrough in publication was James Jones' "From Here to Eternity" (1950), with 50 fucks (down from 258 in the original manuscript). Egyptian legal agreements from the 23rd Dynasty (749-21 B.C.E.) frequently include the phrase, "If you do not obey this decree, may a donkey copulate with you!" (Reinhold Aman, "Maledicta," Summer 1977). Fuck-all "nothing" first recorded 1960.

Verbal phrase fuck up "to ruin, spoil, destroy" first attested c.1916. A widespread group of Slavic words (cf. Pol. pierdoli?) can mean both "fornicate" and "make a mistake." Fuck off attested from 1929; as a command to depart, by 1944. Flying fuck originally meant "have sex on horseback" and is first attested c.1800 in broadside ballad "New Feats of Horsemanship." For the unkillable urban legend that this word is an acronym of some sort (a fiction traceable on the Internet to 1995 but probably predating that) see here, and also here. Related: Fucked; fucking. Agent noun fucker attested from 1590s in literal sense; by 1893 as a term of abuse (or admiration).

DUCK F-CK-R. The man who has the care of the poultry on board a ?hip of war. ("Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue," 1796)

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
14. Ciao!
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 06:10 PM
Jan 2012

Did you know he did a show on discovering the roots of English? I've seen a clip, but I would very much like to track down the show. BBCA hasn't aired it here that I'm aware of. Here's the clip I've seen:

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
17. No, I haven't seen it yet.
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:42 PM
Jan 2012

I'm currently in a hotel with about a baud and half of download speed, but I've bookmarked your clip for later. Looking forward to it, thx!

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
15. When I first looked that up on Etymology Online
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 06:16 PM
Jan 2012

I was amazed at the length of the entry. I'd never seen a word with that much 'history' even though they don't know the exact origins. It had to be frustrating trying to track down some of its history, thanks to the Oxford English Dictionary refusing to enter it for so long. I guess to a lexicographer, it's like a detective story and quite fun

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
18. Bugs, right?
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:46 PM
Jan 2012

No, I'm kidding -- I know better.

I love language, and I love history. Some words are fossilised history. Salary for example. It comes from Roman soldiers being paid in salt. Or conspiracy, from the Latin for "breathing the same air". As a long time listener to BBC Radio's "My Word" (now on some NPR stations) and NPR's "Says You!", I love this sort of thing.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
19. I'm probably not as avid about this topic as you appear to be,
Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:54 PM
Jan 2012

but whenever someone starts going after the dictionary definition of something (such as on DU) I immediately go for the etymology. Even if I never post what I find, I'll learn a little bit. I may not retain it, but I must have remembered something when you quoted the history of "conspiracy". I understood how it could be "breathing the same air" because it shares the Latin word "spirare" or "to breathe". I only know that from doing some research on the word "spirit"

Maybe someone has compiled those radio shows into something downloadable

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