A thread about religion, but I think it's more appropriate for the lounge.

[Tobin S.]

I've run across people who are non-believers who say they could never be with someone who is religious. I've also run across religious people who say they could never be with a non-believer. But people find a way to love each other even when views differ drastically on such a fundamental level.

I'm an agnostic and my wife is an Episcopalian. One of the first things we talked about on our first date was religion. I wanted to make it clear where I stood. I had recently went through an experience with a Christian woman who talked to me for a few weeks and was ready to go out on a date with me but turned me down when she found out I didn't necessarily share her beliefs. My soon to be wife assured me that she was cool with my agnosticism.

I'm a very open minded person and I'm also very easy to get along with. Those two things made it easy for me to consider a relationship with someone who had more conventional religious views. My wife is also open minded and she saw who I was as a person before she saw any religious inclination. She liked what she saw and I liked what I saw in her.

I do go to church with my wife occasionally when I'm not tied up with school work. The services don't do much for me, but I like the people there. They are liberal and friendly.

I understand that there are situations where differences in religious views will cause problems in a relationship. But if you are willing to give a little you might find that you'll receive a lot in return. If you think your mate is doomed to an eternity of torment because he or she doesn't see things the way you do, I can't imagine a more tragic relationship.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. You both understand what is vital in any relationship, my dear Tobin...

Respect.

If you don't have that for your partner, then nothing will work.

Merry Christmas to you and Jen!

[Tobin S.]

2. You're right.

We respect each other. We don't tear each other down. We build each other up.

Merry Christmas to you. We got your card today in the mail. Nice picture. I haven't read the note yet, but it is sitting here next to me. I'll check it out before bed time.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. Oh, good.

B and I both wrote the note! Glad you like the card...

[Tobin S.]

5. I just read the note and your poems

The poems are beautiful. Very good work. Some of the best I've ever read by you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. Aw, thanks, Tobin!

I guess that's why they got published...

B pointed out that they are pretty dark.....I said I couldn't help which ones got the nod! I'll try to write more happy stuff (lol) next year...

[ailsagirl]

3. I had a friend who embraced being "born again"

...and we are no longer friends. Not because I couldn't deal with her-- she couldn't deal with having a friend who didn't believe as she did. Kind of too bad, I think. But people aren't clones.

[Tobin S.]

6. Certainly not.

It may be more challenging to remain friends with someone who does not share your beliefs, but maybe it's possible that those friendships will be very rewarding if you hang in there. I'm sorry about your friend. You can't hang on if someone won't let you.

[ailsagirl]

8. Thanks

Friends are hard to come by and I am disappointed that she couldn't put up with me anymore, but I simply couldn't be someone I wasn't. Ah well...

I think ideally we should be able to believe what we want. (Within reason!!!)
The wise generally "agree to disagree" and continue on with each other. But that wasn't the case with us.

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

7. Ah, Tobin...

Now I see what you were asking in the other thread. As a believer I question so many things. Especially how we're made in His image. Deep down, it pleases me to imagine God with fat thighs

[Tobin S.]

9. Haha!

[Locut0s]

11. Hay Tobin good to hear from you :P OK this is a particulary interesting thread for me...

Given that I've never been in a romantic relationship I'm not really in a position to say much. That being said I think I can extrapolate from my knowledge of who I am and my beliefs well enough to paint a picture of where I stand on the issue.

First I was raised a strong atheist. Actually let's back that up a bit I've developed into a strong atheist, I was raised without any belief system one way or the other. Growing up religion and spirituality never even entered the picture for more than a fleeting moment or two. My father has been the greatest influence on me growing up and he nurtured and instilled in me a passion for nature and science. I can still remember trips with my dad down to the British Embassy when we lived in Malaysia during which we would watch David Attenborough documentaries. I devloped an interest in science at an early age and my father nurtured and encouraged this. If there is anything that could be said to have filled the role of satiating any form of spiritual need or wonderment it would have been my early fascination with the natural world. It still fills this role to this day. I'd get my fix of awe and wonderment as much walking through Cathedral Grove National Park as a real one, and leaning about the intricacies of evolutionary biology and the physics of the cosmos as much as scripture. Fast forward a decade or more and my father again plays an important role in the development of my beliefs. This time he would engender in me my interest in literature, philosophy and humanism. I can't say I ever took these interests as far as he did but viewing the would through a humanist lens would ultimately lead to me later identifying with atheism.

So I have some very strong core beliefs that are by their very nature are fairly anti religious. To me the MOST important thing in life is the concept that ALL we have is each other. I strongly believe that we are at our strongest when we take complete and total ownership of our actions as a people, divorced from the belief in the possible influence of a higher power or the promise of a possible eternal afterlife. I really feel we come into our own and realize our greatest potential with this realization.

Having said this, like you I believe I'm a very easy to get along with person. I start from a place of respect and mutual friendship. I'm quite willing to give and take for the most part. For example my mother is Buddhist and she wishes me often to practice certain small ritualistic things like lighting incense and occasionally visiting the temple. I have no problems whatsoever in doing this and would never make fun of or belittle her beliefs.

But like you said things get rather tricky I'd imagine if your partner believes that you are doomed to a life of eternal suffering because you don't share their beliefs. Thing is a huge majority of those who believe in the big 3 monotheistic religions believe in exactly this. You are very lucky to have met a practising Christian as liberal and open minded as you have found. A true gem

And I must admit I get rather insulted, at times even disgusted, by the strong proselytising aspects of religions. Let's not even go into hyper conservative religious views.

Assuming I could find someone similar to your wife, I believe I'd have little problem with the relationship. Again assuming that we both respect each other and aren't trying to convert one another. A little playful ribbing here and there and a bit of give and take on both sides would be expected and indeed probably essential as well.

I don't see that as the norm though, especially within the "triumvirate" monotheistic religions.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

12. It's hard to be a fervent, evangelistic agnostic

I think I might be an agnostic, since the word is from the Greek "without knowledge", and when it comes to religion, "don't know" seems to describe my beliefs.

However, I was raised (and confirmed) in the Episcopal church.

With all the sermons, it was clear the priest was talking to a bunch of agnostics, people who "don't know". He had to repeat things a lot. But it was all done with great pageantry and décor.

I sort of still have both views in my head, and the two don't seem all that far apart.

I'm not surprised that there's no problem for you both, and wouldn't expect any intense arguments. Just occasional discussion.

Enjoy the coffee and doughnuts.

[IrishAyes]

13. Very well said indeed.

Even though I have to admit that I'd have more trouble with a person's politics than their religion. In other words I'd likelier marry a liberal alien atheist from the moon before anyone remotely inclined toward the GOP because of what the latter says about their level of intelligence if nothing else. And there is a LOT else involved.

However, that's just me. Others may differ. Some may be aghast at where I draw my personal lines. I'm too busy trying to find some shred of common ground with conservatives to keep my level of disgust from deepening. I'll admit even that has an element of selfishness, because I'm fairly convinced that my pocketbook won't support any degree of creature comforts elsewhere to match what I have here. So I MUST see to making the best of a hard deal or otherwise I'll simply be compounding my own misery - which I try to keep walled off as much as possible. A thousand slings and arrows of outrageous fortune can't be allowed to interfere with the joys and pleasures I do have.

I've certainly found Episcopalians in general to be among the most tolerant and forward looking bunch on earth. I like the Universalists too.

[pipi_k]

14. Religion...politics

what a person believes (or not) doesn't matter to me as long as there's no attempt to proselytize.

And I always return the favor. My beliefs are mine, and I don't need to convince (or bully) someone into being an Atheist or Democrat.

I have friends and family from all sides of the religion and political spectrum. If there's mutual respect, that's all I ask.

[RebelOne]

15. I was christened in the Episcopal church in Pennsylvania.

My father was an atheist. But after my mother and father moved to Miami, my mother sent me to the local southern Baptist church, which I attended until I was in my early teens. Then when I could make up my own mind, I went to an Episcopal church, was confirmed and had my first communion and all that religious mumbo-jumbo.

When I was in my late 30s, I decided that religion didn't make much sense. I am now 74 and have been an atheist ever since.

[hunter]

16. My extended family has religious beliefs all over the map.

My dad is probably your sort of agnostic, Tobin, comfortable in church on Sunday and comfortable staying home. When my wife and I were married my dad had some grand conversations with our priest about fishing.

The only common religion of our family is "Not Mormon." Most of my American ancestors were non-Mormons living in Mormon territories. Them that sell, no questions asked, alcohol, coffee, Coca-Cola, condoms, and "nudist" and "health" magazines to any adult, Mormon or not, and then immediately forget about it.

One of my ancestors was a mail-order bride to Salt Lake City who decided she didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a non-Mormon.

My mom wanted to be a Catholic Sister. But then she had an uncomfortable encounter with a leering, drinking, smoking priest. So she married my dad. When my parents started having babies my mom followed the Jehovah's Witnesses. This always caused a great deal of family religious warfare around Christmastime. The JWs don't believe in Christmas. (I still don't like Christmas. It's almost a PTSD thing.)

Eventually my mom got booted from the JW's, about the time my youngest sibling was born, because she couldn't stay out of politics.

After that we were nominally Quaker. My mom could say anything at a Meeting -- whatever she was thinking about God, the Universe, and Everything. People would listen and nod respectfully, then move on. My mom's family were pacifists too. Her dad was a pacifist. (My dad's dad was an Army Air Force major, with a post World War Two career as an aerospace engineer.)

In college I was rescued by a lesbian Orthodox woman who used me to prove to herself and her family she was not a lesbian. This relationship did not end well, but I did escape with my virginity. So did she, at least in the way she was thinking at the time, since in her mind sex with other women didn't count. (There's nothing about lesbian sex in the Bible if you've ever noticed.) She later married a woman, an acquaintance of a Christian Fundamentalist house-mate of mine. Nevertheless this volatile relationship set me back on a more Catholic path. But I've always been a heretic.

My wife is Irish, Mexican, and Southwestern Native American Catholic. We are married Catholic and our kids are Catholic.

I'll share my religious views with anyone. My university training is evolutionary/environmental biology. Fundamentalist/Creationist/proselytizing sorts tend to avoid me.