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Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:38 PM

How is the antivax-antimask populism working out for O'Toole:


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Reply How is the antivax-antimask populism working out for O'Toole: (Original post)
applegrove Nov 24 OP
cilla4progress Nov 24 #1
applegrove Nov 24 #2
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #3
applegrove Nov 24 #6
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #9
applegrove Nov 24 #11
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #12
applegrove Nov 24 #13
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #15
cilla4progress Nov 24 #4
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #7
cilla4progress Nov 24 #8
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #10
Bev54 Nov 24 #14
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 24 #5

Response to applegrove (Original post)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:41 PM

1. Can you break it down

for this American?

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:55 PM

2. He lost the election because the right wing in Alberta was so deSantis

like on Covid. They had a massive outbreak during the election. They had allowed recently diagnosed covid positive people too go out in public but there was such an outcry that Alberta rule got rescinded. That just highlights O'Toole's desire to have it both ways on a number of issues. During the election he was for testing people instead of vaccines being mandatory. He keeps speaking out of both sides of his mouth on things. These two things pissed off voters in the suburbs of Toronto who voted for Trudeau. It was a close election. Now Parliament has reconvened and again O'Toole is trying have it both ways 1) be seen as responsible to Canadians who like science and prudent covid protocols by following public health guidelines 2) back those who claim to be against Covid vaccines and status checks because they are almost libertarians or populists who are very vocal. This issue has dogged him in the election and now again he is Mr. Both Sides. Parliament is trying to hammer out protocols on Covid, O'Toole wants it both ways, one of his MPs just tested positive. There is a new libertarian/populist party in Canada that took 5% of the votes, all from O'Toole's Conservatives, and he therefore can't ignore them as they need libertarians/populists if they are going to win ever. Added to this is probably has a leadership review coming up within his party. Conservatives copy wedge issues from the right in the US, maybe because of the internet these days but the party always has. Then those wedge issues end up wedging them out of power in Canada. There is not enough cognitive dissonance in Canada to buy Mr. Both Sides. Liberals are scoring points.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2021/11/23/conservatives-formally-object-to-covid-19-vaccination-rules-on-parliament-hill.html

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Response to applegrove (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:24 PM

3. I think that populists like Maxime Bernier try to look like libertarians when it suits them


His party is more populist than libertarian, meaning it is also more opportunistic than most. Bernier would like to be another tRump and tRump doesn't pretend to be libertarian or even faux-libertarian, although both preen and posture as 'preservers of liberty'.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:32 PM

6. Right you are. I think the libertarians are the rich people in the world funding the populist

candidates like Trump. It was Dysreli who said if you get British working and middle class to vote on patriotism then Conservatives can win. Populism is just the new patriotism for the right wing. I do think people like Rittenhouse going free bakes libertarianism into the American cake as the country is made less safe by vigilanti-ism and guns and that sets the table for norm changes that accept libertarianism. So I think (this week) that libertarianism is the end goal and the people doing most of the voting don't know it or don't know what 'freedom' could mean for their lot in life as the new members of an underclass. That is what Biden is attacking with BBB.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:36 PM

9. Only faux libertarianism. No acceptance of liability or reality (science). Mostly White Privilege.nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:51 PM

11. Does libertarianism accept liability or reality?

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Response to applegrove (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:53 PM

12. True libertarianism is rooted in liability and reality. They are few and far between.


There are many many people who have been dubbed "libertarian" or self-style as "libertarian" but they don't have a clue.

They use it as a brand without really believing in it.

And many people, especially at DU, love to tar nasty narcissistic people with the "libertarian" brush. It's a lazy slur when there are plenty of real pejoratives that apply.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 09:17 PM

13. I don't think free market capitalism is about liability. It is about massive

externalities. They are pushing it on the sly: populism for you to get drunk on, libertarianism for the rich.

"SNIP.......

In the mid-20th century, right-libertarian[27] proponents of anarcho-capitalism and minarchism co-opted[8][28] the term libertarian to advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights such as in land, infrastructure and natural resources.[29] The latter is the dominant form of libertarianism in the United States,[26] where it advocates civil liberties,[30] natural law,[31] free-market capitalism[32][33] and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.[34]

.....SNIP"

Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

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Response to applegrove (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 09:46 PM

15. That's the problem with unfettered capitalism that ignores liabilities, such as pollution.


That's why carbon pricing makes sense. Use carbon? Pay for mitigation.

Many people equate libertarianism with robber baron capitalism. And, as your excerpt illustrates, the robber barons have co-opted it.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:27 PM

4. Like

that last sentence!

So, is the flag in the shape of a Klan hood, there in the corner? What's the symbolism?

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:33 PM

7. No symbolism. Observe and you'll see flags drape that way when boiled down to simplest shape


As a so-called Red Tory (purple because Liberals are red and Tories (CONservatives) are blue), Erin O'Toole does not seem to have a hint of bigotry that I can detect and seems to tilt socially liberal (small 'l').

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:36 PM

8. So,

fiscal policies are libertarian?

Pro-choice, then?

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:42 PM

10. Blue Tories CONservative socially & fiscally. Red Tories are socially liberal, fiscally CONservative


Fiscal policies are not libertarian. They just want to spend less and cut taxes more. That's not what makes a libertarian, even if libertarians and especially faux-libertarians (far more numerous in both US and Canada) want the same.

Regardless, I would not call the Canadian CONservative party "libertarian", nor would I call Bernier's new party "libertarian".

As to the abortion issue, that is settled in Canada definitely in favor of a woman's right to choose. But CONservative leaders have to squelch back-benchers who want to re-open the debate and torpedo the CONs in elections (scorpion carried by frog).

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #10)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 09:33 PM

14. Actually the CONservative party in Canada would love to outlaw abortions, they started that

when they merged with the Reform party. The conservatives were once a fiscal policy party but turned into the religious right with the reforms. It is not that we have settled law on abortion, it is just that abortion is not illegal in Canada there is no other laws. The only thing stopping the conservatives is that it would not go well with the most of the population should they try to mess with abortions. Bernier's party, PPC, is far more right wing, racists and bigots and anti vaxxers and anti maskers, I know, my brother has gone down that rabbit hole.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:29 PM

5. applegrove is right. O'Toole ran as a "pure blue Tory" for leadership but as purple Tory in election


American colours are reversed from Canadian colours. Red is Liberal and Blue is Conservative. Orange is New Democratic Party and it may surprise some, green is for Greens. The Cons had to drop the "Progressive" from their name in order to unite the CONservative factions, but it is a hornets nest of contradictions.

A realistic headline would be "Conservatives in disarray".

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