I need to forgive myself again; will I never learn?

[CajunBlazer]

With Skinner coming forth to put his foot down on the abuses of the alert and jury systems, I thought it was safe to venture forth in to the treacherous water of GP-P again.

Trying to reason with some of Bernie most zealous supporters is... well...frightening:

They live in a world constructed of their own reality when it comes to Sanders - or "Saint Bernie" as many view him. Nothing can penetrate it. The polls are always wrong. If Any prominent Democrat comes out and supports Hillary, that person is not only a traitor to the progressive cause, they have suddenly done terrible things that I have never heard of in the past. It's like they have laundry list of past grievances on every Democrat ready to pull out if he/she crosses them. And of course there is a conspiracy theory to explain every loss.

They harass the very people they need to assist their candidate. OMG, smart children have better sense that that.

Logic is foreign to them. Back them into a logical corner and and they will pull out their "cease thinking" card and insist you're the one who is irrational.

They don't under stand simple math. No, that's actually too kind; they don't understand or refuse to understand simple arithmetic. I used several simple numerical examples to illustrate to one of them what a very difficult job Sanders would have to turn around voter sentiment in New York to get back on a pace to catch up with Hillary's pledged delegates before the convention. I was met with absolute denial. It was like punching at air.

I could go on and on......but I know it all my fault. I am the one who has been stupid enough to think that I could have serious discussions with those people. I only hope that they are only a small but very vocal majority of Sanders fans and the rest of them were sitting back and watching with amusement as I repeatedly rammed my head into a brick wall.

[creon]

1. Fans

They are fans; and "fan" is short for fanatic.
You see that sort of things in sports; there are people who are super enthusiastic about "their" team or sports hero.

You can get the opposite - those fans have enemy teams. Look at Tom Brady and the New England Patriots.

Will it blow over? probably.
If Sanders is not nominated, he won't be such a hero.

[NurseJackie]

11. There was one user here (now on ignore) that regularly complained about ...

... my use of the word "fans" when describing Bernie supporters. I explained that "fans" was much nicer and socially acceptable compared to all the other words I'd prefer to be using.

[George II]

18. All week Sanders has been referring to himself as a "fan of the Pope"!

[CajunBlazer]

22. I am sure Pope Fransis is a bit ticked at the Bishop who invited Sanders

Remember that this guy who invited Sanders isn't even one of the 215 Cardinals under the Pope in the church hierarchy; in Vatican City he is a relatively low level functionary who appears to be politically clueless. He manifested his naivete when he expressed his amazement that the invitation of a candidate for President in the middle of a nomination race would cause such a fuss. He has probably lived in Vatican City most of his life and not in the real world

You don't get to be Pope by being politically clumsily. Pope Francis is well aware world leaders do not insert themselves in the national elections of sovereign counties, especially powerful countries. Unlike some protestant ministers, Catholic priest are obviously warned not to even get involved in local elections, even when they believe some moral issue is in play.

I'll bet that Pope Francis has now been briefed on the situation given that the public relations arm of the Vatican has gotten involved in making it clear that the pope was not involved in the invitation and will not be attend the meetings. However, this was a relatively low level set of meetings that the pope would not generally be involved. Pope Francis will probably get a report after the meetings which he will read eventually.

However, those who believe that Sanders will meet with the Pope while he is in Rome are going to be sadly disappointed. Normally a visiting dignitary would have relatively little problem getting an short audience with the Pope, but there is no way that Pope Francis is going to allow this controversy to grow by meeting with Sanders this time around.

[creon]

25. That is what I compare them to

I compare them to sports fans who get hyped up about their team.
fan is short for fanatic.

[CajunBlazer]

2. I'm a bigger fool than I thought...

By mistake I originally posted this OP on GP-D. Wow, you can imagine the reaction. It apparently hit much to close to home.

I have since deleted it.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

38. Yikes. Thankfully, they don't have your address. You'd have to move out of the country. Wouldn't

put it past some of the bigger control freaks to try to find it out though.

[CajunBlazer]

44. Nah, I think I can handle those wimps.

They won't mess with me when they find out what I do in my spare time.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

46. Since you're Cajun, I won't worry too much for you.....

[LisaM]

3. I know some of it is the America Rising PAC

Every time things start to quiet down or whenever a crucial moment in the election is at hand, I notice that there is a swell in the number of really vicious posts, along with some that are clear attempts to revive issues that are fading or meant to sow doubt ( for example, after multiple posts had uncovered the reality of the Vatican booty call, along comes a completely preposterous one claiming Bernie is now the headliner, stirring it all back up again). Real debate has become impossible. This reminds me exactly of Tom Delay staffers and their phony recount riot.

[CajunBlazer]

4. So you think some of these people are paid plants?

[CalvinballPro]

7. Absolutely. And they won't leave someplace like DU until the funding dries up. nt

[Andy823]

48. I agree

So many of them are obvious as hell. They get accepted into the Bernie group because they trash here like the long time bashers here who went after Obama, then the party, then any Democrat in office that didn't do things their way, and of course then they went after Hillary.

We have a hell of a lot of trolls here doing nothing but trying to cause problems and divide the people here at DU.

[LisaM]

8. America Rising is owned by Karl Rove

It's one of the things they do. But lots are genuine BS fans too. I just notice some patterns.

[LisaM]

12. For example, in GD: P right now

There is some post claiming Hillary gave a bad interview to a Philly paper. No context...just a link to a conservative website called Legal Insurrection. Newish poster. These are typical tactics.

[Treant]

15. Don't insult plants.

They're attractive, quiet, and produce oxygen.

[Cha]

5. Yes, any excuse will do.. from the dog ate the tax returns.. to Yes, the Pope did invite

BS to the Vatican. Too bad for them their day is coming though.. it always does.

Karma is a beautiful thing.. you reap what you sow.. and theirs is whatever they put out will boomerang one of these days.

So now you've not going to waste your time anymore?

Wondered where you'd been.. lol

[CajunBlazer]

17. Oh, I don't know....

I enjoy debating topics, I guess it's just part of who I am, and I am obviously not shy about stating my opinions. However, what I really enjoy is matching wits with an equal who doesn't throw logic out the window at the first sign that he/or she might be bested on a one point or the other.

When Bernie fans aren't being obvious they will completely ignore a point they can't defend, try to divert attention to a point which they can better defend, or worse divert by attacking you personally. Those are just common internet board techniques used by thousands of people. Those I an deal without much exasperation. It those that come right out and deny commonly known facts, use inexplicable logic and rationals, and generally ignore reality that bother me. You have to wonder what is going on in their heads.

All of that said, I've decided that at least for a while I have better things to do then beating my head into wall that consist of very dense "Bernie logic". That should give me more time for writing in my blog and perhaps spending more time with my friends here in Hillary land.

[Cha]

19. You hit on the most egregious part of their debating skills.. the personal insult.. they all do it.

They don't post anything without trying to insult who they're replying to or a whole group.. and especially Hillary.

BS started out not insulting.. but now he's just as bad. Funny how that worked out.. even funnier is how it hasn't gotten him or them any damn where.. not really.

[sheshe2]

30. They are throwing chum in the water.

They want a rise out of us so they can alert and hide. They are playing games, Cha.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

39. They cannot stand the fact that there's not many Clinton people who bother with GD:P or reply.

That's why they come on the Clinton board to try to stir up stuff. At most, all they can do is alert on a few posts, get a few things hidden and maybe get a couple of people kicked off. It's a tough road..... You do see a lot of posts where they say "why won't any Clinton people explain her policies or explain this or that." It's really almost sad. They don't REALLY want a chorus of agreement on there which is pretty much all there is there. It gets boring very quickly. That's why many spend a lot of time here.... But then they get kicked off. It's amazing to see the list of Sanders supporters who have gotten banned from here. Some of them just cannot take being ignored so they must resort to coming in here. They do love to be able to brag about getting kicked off - it's really a win-win for them.

I've never even been on the Sanders board (although GD is sort of the Sanders board.)

As someone who works in the field of Psychology and specializes in group behavior, this board is a marvelous Petri dish.

[sheshe2]

47. Thanks. kerry.

I have been away for a few days, geez this place is nuts.

[CalvinballPro]

6. This is what cracks me up...

It's like they have laundry list of past grievances on every Democrat ready to pull out if he/she crosses them.

If they put as much time and effort into actual real-life activism as they did compiling the lists of grievances and reposting them over and over online, we'd actually be living in a progressive America. But because the purity is more important than getting results, we're not.

So really, they have no one to blame but themselves. People who can't be allies don't have allies.

[nini]

14. EXACTLY

To really see change it takes boots on the ground and you've got to start at the local level.

[NastyRiffraff]

45. They wouldn't know real-life activism if it kicked them in the ass

I know this is anecdotal, but I was manning a Hillary Clinton table at an early voting place n MD. There were Hillary supporters as well as several down-ticket Democrats approaching voters and handing out material. There were NO Bernie supporters; too much work and not as much fun as a rally (actually it was a lot of fun!).

[Tommy2Tone]

9. I let them live in Bernieland

After Tuesday it will be over for them.

[Loki]

10. They actually think they can win by slamming every legitimate Democrat

in the Senate and the House. Smear them with the board brush of "establishment" and think they are going to win friends and influence people. If he tries to be a sore loser, which I think he will be (he can't help himself), I want him to lose his chairmanships. Persona non grata suits him.

[ismnotwasm]

13. There is really no point you know

Other than the point of DU being a highly trafficked Democratic website, and it probably shouldn't be a primary resource for Hillary hate all the time. I admire the fighters in there, but I'm not one of them usually.

My favorites however, are the call outs demanding some sort of response from Hillary Clinton supporters... I don't think so... First, demanding isn't getting, and second, just ew. I do waste a small portion of time on-line, but I don't throw it in a vortex of nonsense for no discernible reason.

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. And those demanding are, also, the ones making demands in the AA Group ...

The latest being that we response to an article stating that BILL Clinton lobbied to withdraw UN Forces from Rwanda and to limit the remaining forces role to observers. I read the article and only saw the claim but nothing to support the claim. When I pointed that out, I was guided to a NSA archives report, embed in a hot link, that read: "along with then-First Lady Hillary Clinton." (No agenda there, huh?)

One would think one would learn, grown assed adults don't respond well to demands made by anonymous people on a message board.

[ismnotwasm]

35. Yeah, one would think

I've seen those demands in the AA group. Cringeworthy, painful to look at actually. I get the feeling if it wasn't an anonymous internet site, some of those demanding would frame their words far differently.

Lately, I often start a response to various nonsense OP's as well as posts of ill intent, but I think to myself, is this someone you really want to hear more from? Hell no is usually the answer. Then delete.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

40. Don't you just love that? It's gets pretty boring when there's nothing but agreement and "chirp,

chirp, chirp" from us. That's why they beg us to respond.

[Jamaal510]

49. Too bad

they don't get bored enough to go somewhere else.

[Walk away]

16. I always have to remind myself that they are going to be crushed like bugs...

in the end. I try to feel sorry for the but it's not easy.

[Koinos]

20. Reality always has the last word.

It's like global warming. People always learn the hard way.

I feel sorry for them. Many of them have donated way more than they could afford.

Sanders will spend his last penny in California and then be deep in debt due to FEC violations.

A very rich Tad Devine will walk away from the ruins.

[CajunBlazer]

24. "A very rich Tad Devine will walk away from the ruins" ....

... and Jeff Weaver can go back to running his comic book store in Falls Church, Virginia.

[fleabiscuit]

21. It' a trap!

Actually it's a guy thing, that I get reminded of now and then, that we want to fix things.

Need to borrow my "hit myself in the head" hammer?

[CajunBlazer]

23. No, that okay, I have my own methods

[spooky3]

26. Did I miss a Skinner action? Anyone have a link?

[CajunBlazer]

29. Not handy with the link, but....

...Skinner essentially said the abuse of the alert and jury systems had gone much to far (without mentioning who the abusers were). The changes made were: 1) the five hid rule would no longer mean loss of posting privileges and all of those that were previously expelled could come back and post, 2) Those alerting on innocuous post would be looked out closely, and 3) jury members who voted to hid innocuous posts or leave alone posts which clearly disruptive would also experience close examination of their habits on DU.

On the other hand he said that "primary" rules would remain in effect on DU until the nomination is won by one candidate or the other.

I will try to answer any questions to the best of my ability, but the above is my understanding of the rule changes.

[spooky3]

31. thanks, CajunBlazer, these sound like the changes he announced several weeks ago?

I was just wondering if there were something in the last day or two to tighten things up further.

Thanks again for your reply!

[CajunBlazer]

32. Not that I know about

I think the Skinner changes were a couple of weeks ago and nothing further lately

[kerry-is-my-prez]

41. He must be one sane person, how many people could put up with all this nonsense and for as long

as he has? It's very commendable, really. Hats off to Skinner, I don't always agree with his actions/and lack of actions at times but you really have to hand it to him.

[Gothmog]

27. I love the amusing concept that the Democratic convention will be an open convention

It takes a great deal of denial and magical thinking to believe in this silliness

[CajunBlazer]

28. If Hillary doesn't get enough pledged delegates to win outright before the convention...

....without the super delegates, and that is a possibility even if she is far ahead with pledged delegates, technically it will be an open convention.

Then it will be "CLOSED" after the first round of voting when the super delegates vote and that will be the end of Bernie Sanders.

Then there will be a call to make the vote unanimous and that will happen.

[wysi]

33. It's ok

I'm doing battle on FB at the moment in response to TPM's article decrying closed primaries. What these folks fail to apprehend is that they are wanting to participate in a party's nomination process, not an election to office, so there's no chance of actually being disenfranchised.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

36. If you are a logical person, it is almost impossible to understand or relate to an emotional/extreme

right brain person. That is who we are dealing with many times on this board. It is simply impossible to reason with them using logic.

[grossproffit]

37. They wanted an echo chamber.

I've grown bored with the pied piper and his groupies.

[eastwestdem]

42. It is a new era. This really reminds of when the tea party took off a few years ago.

They are not just engaging in substantive differentiation between candidates, they are spreading smears and hateful rhetoric. I started on this site as a Sanders supporter a few months ago, but just changed my username because the old one reflected that view. Time to start new! I cannot bring myself to be a part of all the vitriol.

[CajunBlazer]

43. You're right about Sanders fans acting al lot like Tea Partiers

The similarities between the far left and the far right has been recognized by political science theorists for years.