Is China better for Latin America than the United States?

[FrodosPet]

Reality check: The U.S. has done some bad things in Latin America. Enough to where many people down there do not trust us, sadly with some good reason.

And in the 21st Century, the influence of China seems to be growing. And that is understandable. China has surpluses of cash, and a huge hungry consumer market. A natural ally when trying to come out from the shadow of Uncle Sam.

But ultimately, are China's motives and influence more pure and noble than ours? Are they acting out of pure altruism - the desire to uplift the citizens of Central and South America?

Or are they just a different character set printing the same old plans, with the advantage of casting the U.S. as the enemy so they can push "Give us everything you possess for pennies on the dollar and we will save you from the big bad Yankee imperialists"?

[newfie11]

1. Can they be any worse

As you
Mentioned our track record sucks in Latin America.
Why not give change a chance and besides that it will piss off the US.

[Bacchus4.0]

2. when China starts accepting millions of immigrants from Latin America, get back to us

with that question. China's motives are to obtain natural resources and make money in dealings with Latin America.

[Paolo123]

4. Yes, but China is honest.

When China goes into a country it's a straight-forward situation. We will invest in your infrastructure, we want your resources.

They don't do all the shit the US does and tell them how to run their country, how to fight the war on drugs, how to vote in the UN, etc.

[Bacchus4.0]

6. right, they are not concerned with any issues beyond profit and resources

and I doubt they would accept millions of Latin Americans within their borders. Just like we take on numerous Chinese immigrants.

[Paolo123]

8. Well, If I were president of a third world country, I'd choose China

I wouldn't want to be caught up in imperial wars all over the globe like the US demands.

[Bacchus4.0]

9. if I were a citizen of a third world country, I'd choose the US

you could go to work there and make some money and it wouldn't raise much of a fuss even if you were here illegally while in China you'd probably be sent to prison for overstaying your visa or sneaking into the country, or be sent to some sweat shop to work as a slave. You wouldn't be able to make much money and you'd be ostracized culturally. Maybe Hong Kong.


If I were the leader of said 3rd world country, I'd develop relationships with both the US and CHina in order to maximize the potential benefit to my country, and I'd by savvy enough to realize that its not an either/or proposition. Now if I were an inept dictator driving an economy and country to the ground I might make wild accusations against the US, and run to China and beg for investment dollars.

[Paolo123]

10. Agreed

If I were the leader of said 3rd world country, I'd develop relationships with both the US and CHina in order to maximize the potential benefit to my country, and I'd by savvy enough to realize that its not an either/or proposition

It's hard to disagree with that.

[joshcryer]

15. I would fight *HARD* for renewable and sustinable intellectual property.

If it meant going to the west for that I would do it. That's what is necessary for a long term economy.

Unfortunately Latin America is being exploited by China, a system that is literally on the precipice and can collapse with the environmental damage it is causing to itself and the unsustainable energy resources it is building out.

China thinks it can follow the United State's industrial roadmap. It can't. The US spent its industry internally, China is selling it externally. It's an unsustainable practice.

[joshcryer]

13. That's laughable, they resold Venezuelan oil.

They literally didn't renegotiate the latest rounds of loans until they could get a position more favorable to them.

China is about profit above all else.

[Paolo123]

16. I don't see how that goes against anything I said.

China is China and they do what they do.

The US puts on a happy face while then demanding that your country join the drug war, get involved in other wars, let the NSA into your banking system, etc.

[Bacchus4.0]

17. China spies, you are extremely naive n/t

s

[Paolo123]

18. When did I deny that China spies?

EDITED TO ADD:

Never mind, you are referencing my NSA comment.

Look, have you ever tried to open a bank account overseas as an American? It's incredibly difficult. If you become friends with the US the government goes in there and tells their banks how they have to operate.

I am dual Italian-American, my wife is just American.

Right not we are trying to open up accounts in a latin american country. I used my Italian passport and it was just like opening up an account in the US using my US passport.

My wife got turned down at most banks, and at the one she is getting an account at she has to produce reams and reams of information.

When the US is in your control is sticks it's tentacles EVERYWHERE

[Bacchus4.0]

19. yes, I have at least twice

once in Central America and I was unable to in Ecuador for some reason. Its the host country that makes the laws regarding foreigners having bank accounts, not the US. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

[Paolo123]

24. Since FACTA came into being?

Since FACTA was passed it is very difficult for Americans to get bank accounts, and it is not laws passed by the host country. It is banks not wanting anything to do with Americans for fear of the wrath of the US.

[Bacchus4.0]

26. I tried to establish a bank account in 2010 in Ecuador

one bank did not even let me in the door. I doubt it was due to facta. The other bank I began the process of establishing an account but didn't follow through so just continued to draw from the US bank. Not sure what that has to do with whether third world countries should partner with the US or China as if it were an either/or proposition.

[Paolo123]

27. Because

Despite what happened to you in 2010, things have become much worse since FACTA.

Here is exactly what it has to do with it:

I made the claim that once you get involved with the US, they try to tell you how to run your country. One example is that the US dictates how foreign banks will behave or face the wrath of the US. Another is getting them involved with wars that they have nothing to do with and no national interest in.

China doesn't do that.

[Bacchus4.0]

28. foreign banks can elect to not have US citizens customers then

even if the US banking law is onerous on foreign banking institutions it still doesn't mean that a developing country needs to select either the US or China as their main trading partner or benefactor. It isn't a one or the other scenario as posited in the OP.

Maybe you should look to Chile or Peru for examples of economic progress that include trade and investments from a variety of foreign sources. Venezuela is such a poor example as they have alienated the US and foreign business interest to the extent that they are forced to look to the Chinese for investment and will agree to the terms the Chinese dictate.

[Paolo123]

29. Yes, that is what they are doing.

They are electing not to have US customers. Do they want US customers? Yes. Do they want to be hassled by the US? No.

That being said, you keep throwing up straw-men.

I simply said that if you get involved with China that China just does it's deal with you. When you do a deal with the US the US starts trying to dictate everything you do, including foreign policy.

You have done nothing at all to refute that.

For example, your whole last paragraph is a straw-man. When did I say that a country should NOT include trade and investments from a variety of sources? I never said that.

Where did I say Venezuela was a good example? I never said that.

[joshcryer]

20. reselling oil isn't honest

brokering unfair loan deals isn't honest

[Paolo123]

25. Did they decieve the Venezuelans?

I never saw that VLZA was deceived.

[bemildred]

3. They have the virtue of being far away. nt

[Flatulo]

5. They also have the benefit of hindsight. American policy has creates ill will throughout the world.

[bemildred]

7. Well, they seem to get that war does not pay in a modern technological situation.

Just because you can mess up someone elses life, that doesn't mean you have made yours better. We are a great example of the truth of that statement. Zero sum politics is bad politics.

[Marksman_91]

11. They sure have no problems in consistently sending weapons to active warzones, though n/t

[bemildred]

12. And where else would you send weapons? nt

[Marksman_91]

21. How about nowhere?

It's pretty clear that China sells weapons to either side of any ongoing conflict in the world so long as they're making a profit out of it.

You honestly believe the Chinese are the most benevolent bunch of the major world powers? In that country, there's no notion of regulation whatsoever, even environmental ones, at least nowhere near the level of that found in other developed countries. Oh, and while the US doesn't exactly have the best track record in terms of human rights and respect for personal freedom, the Chinese have a much worse one. Just for the fact that the use of Google, Facebook, Twitter and other popular social media platforms shows what kind of society the government there wants for its people.

[bemildred]

22. Well, the question is: why should they stop if we won't?

China doesn't sell weapons to just anybody, any more than we do.

Right now, there is an arms race going on, driven largely by US military spending, and that is why the Chinese want to build up their military too.

[Marksman_91]

23. No, what you should be asking is "Why should we do what they do?"

I'm not saying the US doesn't also benefit from doing business with either party when it comes to warzones. But just because your neighbor decorates their house full of Christmas lights and racking up their electric bill tenfold, does that mean you should do the same? There are wiser ways of spending one's own economic power, and trying to "keep up" with military expenditure is not one of them.

[joshcryer]

14. No, China is on an unsustainable trajectory.

The United States is becoming sustainable, as insane as it sounds.

China is getting what it can while it can and it will do anything to get it, including shady dealings and corruption.