Carnival cruise to Cuba faces federal lawsuit (Cuban born US immigrants are banned from cruise)

[Mika]

Carnival cruise to Cuba faces federal lawsuit

{snip}

The first cruise ship scheduled to sail to Cuba from the United States is under fire, and now facing a federal lawsuit, because people born on the island are forbidden from the voyage.

Two Cuban-Americans who were turned down when they tried to book a seat on a Fathom cruise set to visit Cuba filed the lawsuit late Tuesday, claiming the inability of a group of Americans to participate in a public activity violates the Civil Rights Act. The lawsuit targets Fathom's parent company, Miami-based cruise giant Carnival Corp., and asks for the May 1 cruise to be stopped.

Robert Rodriguez, one of the lawyers who filed the complaint, said he was shocked when his clients explained they were told by a booking agent they couldn't purchase the trip because they were born in Cuba. Rodriguez said Carnival has long been one of the most influential companies in South Florida, the heart of the Cuban community in the U.S., and its willingness to bar Cuban-Americans for the sake of sailing to Cuba disappointed him.



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/04/13/cuba-cruise-carnival-cuban-american-lawsuit/82973694/

[COLGATE4]

1. Carnival sued because they are conforming with the law

of a country where they are permitted to touch port. Which is what all cruise lines must do, or risk being told they can no longer enter territorial waters of the country involved. I'm beyond astonished to see the 'reasoning' behind this suit.

[FBaggins]

4. I'm astonished that you're astonished

They also have to follow the laws of the country of embarkation.

In this case, laws against discrimination on the basis of national origin.

U.S. Travel Regulations

The January 16, 2015 amendment to the Cuban Assets Control Regulations makes it possible for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba with authorized carriers offering people-to-people programming that facilitates educational, cultural, humanitarian, religious and artistic exchanges between U.S. and Cuban persons. Carnival Corporation & plc received its license in early July 2015 and intends to offer Fathom cultural exchange voyages to Cuba in May 2016. For more information about the specific regulations, please review the FAQ provided by the U.S. Department of the Treasury. Fathom is taking reservations from US and non-US citizens who are legally eligible to travel within the United States and depart from Miami. All passengers who join Fathom cultural exchange voyages to Cuba will be required to comply with US authorized OFAC regulations.

[COLGATE4]

6. All cruise and airlines must comply with the immigration

Last edited Thu Apr 14, 2016, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

requirements of the country of destination. Any traveler who does not 1) have all the necessary paperwork (passport, visa, health card, etc.) and 2) does not meet whatever other requirements the country of destination has set out for his/her entrance will be denied entry to the plane or ship. This is nothing new - it's been standard practice for many, many years now - at least 40 by my count. Perhaps the best example I can give you is this: many countries ( even some European ones) insist that your passport must be valid for a given period after your arrival (generally 6 months). So, while you may have a perfectly valid US passport that doesn't expire until 4 months after your planned arrival to whatever country, you will still be denied boarding the plane or ship at the Miami port.

What you have here is a group of people that Cuba, as it is in its right to do, has decided not to admit if they land by ship. If the airline or cruise lines did not follow that restriction they face the risk that the entire ship or plane could be prohibited from landing in Cuba AND, even if permitted to land the airline or cruise line eats the entire costs of returning these people to the US at the first possible opportunity after they are denied entry.

Discrimination by the lines or the Travel Agency. No, I don't think so.

[FBaggins]

12. What did you think added to the conversation in there?

None of the examples that you gave were instances of national origin discrimination. In that case, there's no clash.

If the airline or cruise lines did not follow that restriction they face the risk that the entire ship or plane could be prohibited from landing in Cuba

Yep. They must follow the laws of both countries. If they can't do so... then they can't offer the service. And that appears to be what they've decided as well:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/carnival-delay-cuba-cruise-discrimination-concerns-38481204

Faced with protests, political pressure and a lawsuit, Carnival Corp. announced Monday it will allow Cuban-born passengers to book cruises to the island but will delay the trips if Cuba does not change its policy barring nationals from returning by sea.

...snip...

"We want everyone to be able to go to Cuba with us," Donald said. "We remain excited about this historic opportunity to give our guests an extraordinary vacation experience in Cuba."

The decision follows protests last week by Cuban-Americans outside Carnival's headquarters in the suburb of Doral. Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Gimenez — who was born in Cuba — also suggested in a letter that Carnival might be violating the county's human rights ordinance by discriminating against a specific class of people.

In addition, two Cuban-Americans who were prevented from buying tickets on the May 1 cruise because they were born in Cuba filed a potential class-action civil rights lawsuit in Miami federal court last week. And Secretary of State John Kerry said during a visit to Miami on Friday that Cuba should change its policy and that Carnival nevertheless should allow anyone to travel on its ships.

[COLGATE4]

15. Carnival is trying to cover its butt by hastily

reversing themselves here. Seems to be pressure from the Cuban community in Miami. Let's see if Cuba calls their bluff (which is what I would guess is going to happen) by not changing the requirement.

[FBaggins]

16. Pressure from the Cuban community?

You mean... they're worried about losing business from people they couldn't sell tickets to anyway?

It couldn't possibly be the US Secretary of State and a lawsuit that they can't possibly win, right?

Let's see if Cuba calls their bluff (which is what I would guess is going to happen) by not changing the requirement.

So Carnival will not only reject a customer from their public accommodation, they'll kick them off after accepting the contract?

[COLGATE4]

17. They got direct pressure from Miami's Mayor (a Cuban-American),

who was on TV last night crowing about pushing them to change plus steet protests all over the place in Miami by Cubans and Cuban-Americans. Kerry tried to thread the needle with his nothing comments and wound up diplomatically saying nothing. Carnival has said that the whole issue is in limbo until the Cuban government decides if they're going to change their policy about Cubans arriving by sea. If the Cuban government decides to hang tough on this requirement, then the cruise line will have to cancel the sold tickets of those particular passengers. Don't know if they'll get a refund - probably more likely a credit on a future Carnival cruise.

[FBaggins]

18. That isn't what they said at all

They said that if Cuba doesn't change their policy, then they won't cruise to Cuba.

As I said earlier... they really don't have much of a choice. They have to follow US law. They're a public accommodation and can't discriminate on the basis of national origin.

[COLGATE4]

19. That's exactly the same thing I said. Carnival has said that

until the Cuban government changes its policy regarding the desembarkation of Cuban or Cuban-American passenger by ship they will not sail to Cuba. The really didn't have much of a choice. If they had taken them aboard anyway the ship might very well not be allowed to dock in Cuba.

[FBaggins]

20. Nope

You said that the cruise line would have to cancel the tickets of "those particular passengers" and claimed that Carnival was bluffing when they said that they wouldn't go if Cuba didn't change their minds.

[FBaggins]

21. So much for calling their "bluff", eh?

Cuba Changes Course, Will Allow Native Born On Cruises To Island

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2016/04/22/cuba-changes-course-will-allow-native-born-on-carnival-cruise-ships/

[COLGATE4]

22. Live and learn. The $$$ are more important to them

than screwing over the Cuban Americans. Oh, the purity of the revolution.

[Judi Lynn]

2. So crazy! Cuban Americans have been coming and going to Cuba for ages, by airplane, while we,

non-Cuban US Americans were BANNED from going at ALL.

WTF?

If they want to go to Cuba, they can continue to go to Cuba just as they've been going all this time. Even Elián González's great grand uncle, Lázaro González, used to go to Cuba on vacation well before the day the little boy was found in the water off the coast of Florida.

They can all still go, yet US Americans still aren't at the stage where they can simply get up and drop into Cuba without either going with a government-approved group, or by going through a third country first.

They can take a regular flight from multiple cities in the US now, or they can wait a few months until more opportunities arise tailor-made to accommodate them.

[Mika]

5. Cubans have had the ability to immigrate legally with a visa to the US. US made it easy.

They all came via airline with a US visa in hand. The US grants over 20,000 to Cubans every year - and not all are applied for, even after the Cuban gov't relaxing of their emigration regs.

Those who came by boat or raft - for one reason or another - were refused a US immigration visa after the US did a criminal background search (in Cuba by US embassy persons) - something that all applicants for a US immigration visa must pass, no matter what their country of origin is.

BUT - the US (via the Wet Foot/Dry Foot exception for Cubans only) allows Cuban illegal entrants - including those who failed a US visa application because of a criminal record background check - to stay in the US without hesitation.

Seeing as how the US and Cuba have not formalized any normal immigration accords, nor normalized extradition, nor has the US normalized illegal Cuban entry to that of all other nationalities ... just why should Cuba accept this particular group of Cubans - who violated the law, and possibly (quite likely) have failed even a US background check (that's whey they came to the US by boat without a legal visa).

[Judi Lynn]

8. Good point, Mika. Glad you mentioned it. Would these same "exiles" love to cruise back to Cuba

on a ship along with a whole lot of Mariel immigrants?

It would be hilarious! They can't stand the thought so many criminals, etc. showed up in South Florida, thought it impaired the image they believed US Americans had of them. Had Elián González' mother's boyfriend survived, Lázaro Munero, he also could have cruised along with them as someone who had killed a man in a fight, served time in prison, then moved back and forth between Cuba and Miami often, and came back to get Elisabet and Elián to live with him in Miami. Maybe they'd like him in the next room.

So funny!

[Mika]

9. The wonders at The Versailles POUTRAGED that a private business can be dictated to by a gov't.

I guess they don't get the irony of their complaint.

The hard-liners are complaining that some exiles can't go by boat to the country they fled from by boat.

[Judi Lynn]

10. I guess they miss the good old days when companies like the Fanjuls' sugar plantations,

or United Fruit, or Standard Oil, etc., etc., etc. owned almost everyone in government, and did the dictating themselves.

Looks like they're just having a hard time getting acclimated, since it's been only 50 years or more for some of them!

The last line about coming yet not going by boat is too sad for words! Help!

[center][/center]

[FBaggins]

11. As with COLGATE4 above - you've missed the point

a private business can be dictated to by a gov't

The private business in this case must answer to two governments. One of them forbids exiles to return to Cuba by sea... the other one forbids discrimination on the basis of national origin.

If they can't follow both governments' laws, then they can't operate the service.

[Mika]

13. No point missed by me.

I was referring to the ironies relating to the US extraterritorial sanctions on private businesses (including US private businesses) and private citizens that do (or might want to do) business in/with Cuba - something many of the same intransigent exiles and their representatives fully support - yet at the same time objecting to a foreign govt's regulations (Cuba's) that directly impact a US based private business.

I fully understand your legal point. I was referring to the irony of their positions.

[FBaggins]

14. Apologies for the misread n/t

[bemildred]

3. LOL. Fidel still knows how to say "Fuck You asshole, I'll dance on your grave.", doesn't he?

[COLGATE4]

7. Except the only people he's saying that to here are

Last edited Thu Apr 14, 2016, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Cubans. Nothing new there.