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Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:01 AM Aug 2012

Can someone defend or at least explain the "standards" movement?

Diane Ravitch said this earlier this year about "standards":

>>>Meanwhile our policymakers say we need higher standards, more rigorous standards, and more testing. How exactly will that help children who are struggling to read and do math? Or, in some cases, struggling to read and speak English? Or in the case of children with disabilities, how are they helped by harder tests? This is like saying, “if these children can’t jump over a four-foot bar, let’s lift the bar to six feet and see how they do.” Do you know how they will do? It seems obvious to me.>>>>

It crystalized for me what what was bothersome about the "standards" fetish that has had a hold on the education dialogue for the last few years and is now reaching an absurd crescendo with the adoption of the Common Core.

Ravitch's logic seems pretty tight . ( Not to mention super-direct, as is her custom.) But I'm open to other POVs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/whose-children-have-been-left-behind-framing-the-2012-ed-debate/2012/01/02/gIQAz3nDXP_blog.html

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Can someone defend or at least explain the "standards" movement? (Original Post) Smarmie Doofus Aug 2012 OP
I met a grade 3 math teacher in Florida last winter and saw the math tests .. nenagh Aug 2012 #1
So, what's going on , exactly? More political posturing by..... Smarmie Doofus Aug 2012 #2
Really, I am not sure..because I am of retirement age.. nenagh Aug 2012 #4
That's impossiby high? FBaggins Aug 2012 #6
Then you don't know much about 3rd graders proud2BlibKansan Aug 2012 #7
WIth respect... I'm pretty sure I do. FBaggins Aug 2012 #10
More than 3 decades teaching elementary school. proud2BlibKansan Aug 2012 #12
ya cant sell many millions $$ in tests without standards ya know. invalid ones work just fine nt msongs Aug 2012 #3
Exactly...it's makes me very sad... nenagh Aug 2012 #5
You should see the 1st grade comprehension standards proud2BlibKansan Aug 2012 #8
gotta have the same standards all over the country, then all over the world, in order to make HiPointDem Sep 2012 #20
Yes. Igel Aug 2012 #9
Thanks. You said a mouthful. But I'm still confused. Smarmie Doofus Aug 2012 #11
Re. Yes Smarmie Doofus Aug 2012 #13
True 'dis: Smarmie Doofus Aug 2012 #16
All the yak about standards is completely premature. It's like saying, "Let's get ready for a trip mbperrin Aug 2012 #14
It's a great tool for the discrediting and dismantling of public ed. LWolf Aug 2012 #15
And since we HAD standards, is it not the proverbial cure for which there was no disease? Smarmie Doofus Aug 2012 #17
Just unreal. kalvin Sep 2012 #18
here's an explanation Shagman Sep 2012 #19

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
1. I met a grade 3 math teacher in Florida last winter and saw the math tests ..
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:27 AM
Aug 2012

Her students had been given.. The test was on fractions..I couldn't believe it...

Is 3/7 greater or less than 1/2 or 2/3.. It was a very difficult test..

And used the >,<,= signs...these children could barely print Their names..

How many children master fractions in grade 3 in math when they don't know the times tables?

Poor children, I thought, failing grade 3 because of an impossibly high standard..

 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
2. So, what's going on , exactly? More political posturing by.....
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:39 AM
Aug 2012

Last edited Fri Aug 10, 2012, 06:53 AM - Edit history (1)

"bipartisan" (ugh!) pols and further machinations by the $$$$ elite who don't know what they're doing in education but are damned-sure determined to go ahead and do it?

I mean it SOUNDS great : "Let's demand hgher standards". But WTF does it *mean*.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
4. Really, I am not sure..because I am of retirement age..
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 04:39 AM
Aug 2012

My kids are in their 30's, completed University here in Ontario...

Two of my children completed grade 3 and above in Ireland..my youngest completed grade 3 in Ontario...

The youngest had great trouble learning to read here in.Ontario... The method of teaching reading here was via sheets of paper with diff vowel sounds making up words to learn..it was complete chaos and made no real sense to him. Finally he learned to read more quickly because I bought him computer gaming magazines which he deeply desired, because he wanted to play the games. He taught himself to read in order to understand the computer games...He graduated from University in computer engineering and is employed in that field..

So I understand that different countries have different learning methods....but it really disturbed me to see the grade 3 math tests in Florida.. Because of the difficulty of the test..& I thought of my youngest..slow to read, faced in grade 3 writing a math test..difficult in math and difficult in the words used to phrase the questions.

1. The test required quite excellent reading comprehension...(ie some test questions used odd words eg' a grouper is a fish' blah, blah is what I remember...)

I thought the wording of the questions was unnecessarily difficult...that a poor reader would have trouble with the unusual new words...

2. The whole math aspect..was difficult...why do fractions before the children have learned the times tables..think I'm right there..anyway..the fraction test I saw was very difficult for a grade three..I thought.

Felt, if it were my child..he'd have flunked grade 3 before he had a chance to move on and become a computer engineer...Didn't seem fair to me..

proud2BlibKansan

(96,793 posts)
7. Then you don't know much about 3rd graders
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 07:56 PM
Aug 2012

Comparing fractions with unlike denominators is a ridiculous expectation for 8 year olds. I've seen 6th graders struggle with this skill.

FBaggins

(26,731 posts)
10. WIth respect... I'm pretty sure I do.
Mon Aug 13, 2012, 09:59 AM
Aug 2012

Our first three had no trouble with either at that point. I also know that it's explicitly included in the 3rd grade curriculum for a number of states. It's hard to say that none of them know much about 3rd graders.

I've seen 6th graders struggle with this skill.

And I've seen adults that can't master it. So?

proud2BlibKansan

(96,793 posts)
12. More than 3 decades teaching elementary school.
Mon Aug 13, 2012, 06:45 PM
Aug 2012

Hundreds of children.

Plus many years writing curriculum.

I stand by my words. Comparing fractions with unlike denominators is developmentally inappropriate for 8 year olds. Can some do it? Yes, of course. Some 3rd graders can handle high school level math. But that doesn't mean it's appropriate for all.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
5. Exactly...it's makes me very sad...
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 04:45 AM
Aug 2012

A child feeling themselves a failure. So early in life...when the reality seems to be, why teach such difficult concepts so early?

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
20. gotta have the same standards all over the country, then all over the world, in order to make
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:01 PM
Sep 2012

billions in the education franchise business.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
9. Yes.
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 02:59 AM
Aug 2012

It's simple, really.

But you have to keep the issues separate. There's the issue of having standards; of where to set their "rigor" or difficulty, what to include; there's the question of how to test that they're being taught; and there's the question of what use to make of that test beyond just being a diagnostic.

You asked about standards. They're crucial.

There are two main uses for standards. One is to set minimums. The other, to set high goals.

The first is useful for IDing gross inequality, either between schools or between cohorts or teachers within a school. Black schools are more often failing? Unless you have a test to compare black schools with white schools, you've got no proof. Unless you know both schools are supposed to be teaching the same things, you've got no basis for a test.

Standards allow a test that can identify inequality. When you hear about race/ethnic differences in educational achievement, you're talking standardized tests and that means you're crucially relying on standards. Progressives/liberals drove this agenda.

The second keeps students and schools working as hard as they can. It's easy to slack off. Even if you have a scope and sequence, unless it can be enforced it's not much of a standards. You want that high school to push its students, set high standards and make sure that they're enforced or at least diagnosed.

You must never confuse these kinds of standards. Which means, politicians routinely confuse them in their speech. (I don't know which is worse--assuming they're too stupid and really do confuse them, or if they know they're different and just want to manipulate us.)

If you test the first, you've got a minimum standards test. That's useful for spotting failing schools. It's useful for graduation. Johnny can't read, Johnny doesn't pass the test--whatever his teachers say. Raising these standards when a lot of kids can't pass the test is foolishness. Ravitch is right. But the second kind of standard is damned useful. As long as you use them right, the sky's the limit for those. You want to put LaPlace transforms in pre-calc, go for it. You may never get there; but perhaps one class in 1000 will.

Tests based on the second kind of standards are useful if they're diagnostic. Not if every student must meet them. At my school, we're told to stick to the scope and sequence and every few weeks there's a test--if we get a week behind, then students won't have seen 1/3 to 1/4 of the material on the test. One teacher said she got 3 weeks behind and the students hadn't seen *anything* on that test. That's a bad use of such a test. However, from this test we also know which standards we failed to teach well enough to which kids. We could reteach them. That's useful.

Tests based on the second standards are also great for comparing schools or teachers. My kids score lower on the test but have a higher class average? I grade too easy. My school's graduates scored 30% lower than another school's? Ouch.

And, in theory, if we get our collective acts together such tests could point to when minimum standards should be raised and by how much.
========

There have been, for decades, industry/field-specific standards. They're intended to give states advice. National politicans like them because they can claim power over state educational systems. Sometimes it's nice to think that Texas and New Hampshire have the same standards. Sometimes it's pointless. Sometimes it's scary.

I think the national science standards are insane. Absurd. Wrong-headed. I'd seriously think of getting certified to teach English if I thought they'd be implemented at my school.

Then again, I think the Texas standards for chemistry and physics are workable. The chemistry allows for depth (even if it's not tested, so few push for depth). A typical college freshman chem course covers more topics in more depth. The physics standards are ambiguous but ambitious--a typical 1-year college physics course covers all the same topics. In high school, that means a pretty superficial discussion of each topic. Still, this shows the kind of trade off that states should be allowed to make. Few topics, in depth; many topics, shallow.

The thing is, that foisting standards and tying their acceptance and achievement to money gives politicans and bureaucrats power. And if there's one thing that both want, it's power. They know what's best--even if what they know today is at odds with what they knew last week--and how dare anybody tell them otherwise.

======
Now for my rant. The problem with standards is that we confuse them, and we confuse them out of fear. We're afraid that other countries students are smarter, that their best trumps our best.

Finland's one example. Singapore. S. Korea. Whatever. The problem is that we don't get honest comparisons. Moreover, our systems have different goals so it's not possible to obtain honest comparisons. (In other words, we don't have common standards

Finland has a vocational and a technical track. Early in high school kids are removed from high school for vocational programs if they don't do well on a test and their teachers recommend them for it. Their "high school cohort" is a subset of high-school-age kids with all the academically low-achievers pulled out. Our high school cohort is all the kids of high school age. Most countries do as Finland does. The numbers with the US aren't comparable. Of course Finland scores higher--they've dumped their bottom 30% of students.

A lot of countries also have students that trump our best, highest-achieving high schoolers. Then again, they focus on the top students to help them--teachers with greater expertise, more time, and more money devoted to the high achievers. We lump our high achievers in with others, too often, and their teachers are pressed for time and resources. Want to do a chemistry project in my school? Cough up funds, I'll try to find time for you between meetings and teaching 180 kids. Want to do one in a Finnish school? Sure--I'll get you the supplies and, gee, I get time freed up to work with you.

And that's the difference between the educational mission. We're all about "leave no child behind." We've tripled ed spending, in real dollars, in the last 40 years. Where Finland frees up time and money to help the high achievers achieve more, we free up serious time and money to help the kids who, after they scrape through high school, will get minimum wage jobs or be unemployed. We help the top 10% as long as it's not too expensive or if it somehow is good for PR.

 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
11. Thanks. You said a mouthful. But I'm still confused.
Mon Aug 13, 2012, 03:30 PM
Aug 2012

To a degree, this is alien terrain to me. I spent my entire career in SP ED ( self-contained) where... until very recently.... we weren't concerned w. standards. We had ieps. We taught the kids what they needed to know based on patterns suggested by their developmental disability. Some kids knew, for instance , how to tell time to the half hour, but not to the quarter hour: therefore, telling time to the 1/4 hour was what we worked on in class. ( That this would be the "goal" was determined by a "team", including parent, teacher, district and school psych.... in a meeting.) ( Alas... now we have standards too; I think as a result of the standards movement; although perhaps you can illuminate that question. All I know is that they have to do Algebra... or pretend to do it... if they are high school age, regardless of whether or not they can tell time... or even *count*. No, I'm not making this up.)

Anyway, back to teaching iep kids how to tell time: nothing to do w. "standards". Raised my own son: K-5 grade in general ed ( w. resource room on iep); pulled out after that to self contained LD class in an LD school. So I'm somewhat familiar w. what standards ARE. ( In NYS, for instance in 4th grade he had to do NYS history including Native American tribes. ( I remember, 'cause I had to take a day off from work to go into the woods so I could get twigs so that he ( I ) could make an Algonquin dwelling later in the day to display it at Social Studies fair... or whatever. Therefore, I surmised that the 4th grade standard in SS in NYS was for the student to to be be knowledgeable about NYS history and/or contributions of different groups.

Am I right so far?

You covered a lot of ground. Some of which i followed and some I did not. It sounds like I could learn something from this thread. But it has to be in chunks. ( "I'm old, and therefore respectable; politicians, ugly buildings, teachers and sex workers all get respectable if they last long enough." - paraphrasing John Huston in Chinatown.)

More later. Don't go away.


 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
13. Re. Yes
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 12:45 PM
Aug 2012

>>>The first is useful for IDing gross inequality, either between schools or between cohorts or teachers within a school. Black schools are more often failing? Unless you have a test to compare black schools with white schools, you've got no proof. Unless you know both schools are supposed to be teaching the same things, you've got no basis for a test.

Standards allow a test that can identify inequality. When you hear about race/ethnic differences in educational achievement, you're talking standardized tests and that means you're crucially relying on standards. Progressives/liberals drove this agenda.>>>>>


So we DO this already, yes? So the standards "movement" is *not* talking about this?



>>>The second keeps students and schools working as hard as they can. It's easy to slack off. Even if you have a scope and sequence, unless it can be enforced it's not much of a standards. You want that high school to push its students, set high standards and make sure that they're enforced or at least diagnosed.

You must never confuse these kinds of standards. Which means, politicians routinely confuse them in their speech. (I don't know which is worse--assuming they're too stupid and really do confuse them, or if they know they're different and just want to manipulate us.) >>>

So... the "movement" MAY be talking about Purpose #1 when they mean ... or SHOULD mean .... Purpose #2. Yes?

>>>If you test the first, you've got a minimum standards test. That's useful for spotting failing schools. It's useful for graduation. Johnny can't read, Johnny doesn't pass the test--whatever his teachers say. Raising these standards when a lot of kids can't pass the test is foolishness. Ravitch is right. But the second kind of standard is damned useful. As long as you use them right, the sky's the limit for those. You want to put LaPlace transforms in pre-calc, go for it. You may never get there; but perhaps one class in 1000 will. >>>>>>

OK... I'm following now. But you're into new territory w. Purpose #2... and I may be getting lost again.
More later.



 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
16. True 'dis:
Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:27 PM
Aug 2012

>>>>The thing is, that foisting standards and tying their acceptance and achievement to money gives politicans and bureaucrats power. And if there's one thing that both want, it's power. They know what's best--even if what they know today is at odds with what they knew last week--and how dare anybody tell them otherwise. >>>>

So, in essence, the "standards movement" is a political and bureaucratic phenomenon. Not an effort to address a legitimate educational need.

======

And true 'dat:

>>>>>>Now for my rant. The problem with standards is that we confuse them, and we confuse them out of fear. We're afraid that other countries students are smarter, that their best trumps our best.

Finland's one example. Singapore. S. Korea. Whatever. The problem is that we don't get honest comparisons. Moreover, our systems have different goals so it's not possible to obtain honest comparisons. (In other words, we don't have common standards >>>>>

Is it that we don't have common standards or that the comparison is flawed by biased sampling? Or both?



>>>Finland has a vocational and a technical track. Early in high school kids are removed from high school for vocational programs if they don't do well on a test and their teachers recommend them for it. Their "high school cohort" is a subset of high-school-age kids with all the academically low-achievers pulled out. Our high school cohort is all the kids of high school age. Most countries do as Finland does. The numbers with the US aren't comparable. Of course Finland scores higher--they've dumped their bottom 30% of students.
>>>>

I didn't realize Finland did this too. I know other countries ahead of the USA on the international rankings do this , but Finland in particular is being pointed to... even by "our" side of the argument ... as the pinnacle of education achievement and culture. So I'm a little surprised that vocational kids are not included in the academic stats.

mbperrin

(7,672 posts)
14. All the yak about standards is completely premature. It's like saying, "Let's get ready for a trip
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 05:11 PM
Aug 2012

to Omaha, Nebraska." EVERYBODY will have to plan for that same trip, include the same supplies, same transportation, same everything. Then after graduation, turns out most people want to go somewhere besides Omaha.

Never been a study yet, a nice longitudinal study which would identify what creates happiness for humans and what we could do in school to promote that. THEN we could set standards to make sure we were creating happiness, present and future, for our students.

Three decades teaching high school to several thousand students by now. Not one has ever thanked me for the formal class instruction they got. Instead, they appreciated being shown the dangers of debt, the traps of immediate gratification, and other "freebies" thrown in. I live in the neighborhood where I teach and routinely see dozens of my graduates weekly.

I ask them what they wish we had taught in school. Never been a one thought we needed more economics vocabulary or word identification problems.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
15. It's a great tool for the discrediting and dismantling of public ed.
Wed Aug 15, 2012, 12:50 PM
Aug 2012

First, it (the "movement&quot suggests that education and educators didn't HAVE standards before the "movement."

Wrong, of course. We did. They just weren't horrifically long laundry lists of isolated skills that we were held "accountable" for so that we could be punished and diminished.

We had frameworks. Remember those? They gave a general scope and sequence of what was to be learned at each grade level. There was no mandated test; we taught, and students were responsible for the learning.

Those standards and that movement make it possible to insert high-stakes testing into the system, and use that high-stakes testing to control, discredit, demean, and ultimately destroy that system.

It started a couple of decades ago, at the state level in many states. In CA, where I was teaching at the time, we had the API. We were suddenly expected to keep a document, to be turned in at the beginning and end of every term, that listed all the dates we taught each individual standard; the time spent testing increased tenfold, and we began to lose autonomy in our classrooms.

At the time, I talked to one of my former professors, who was our head district psychologist, about it. He taught the "psychological measurement" course I took that focused on standardized testing. I asked him if it were really statistically possible for any teacher, school, or district to meet the test score mandates in the new laws, because, based on the class he taught me, it was statistically impossible. He told me I was right. Before the movement even went national with NCLB.

We KNEW this before it even got off the ground.

That's how I explain the standards movement without reading the link.

Having read the link, I'll say that one of the things we learned in the above mentioned course was that the most reliable predictor of any standardized academic test's results was parent income and education level.

Ravitch nails this repeatedly.

In a culture that's become immune to fact, standing defiantly on the right to "believe" whatever about any topic, pointing out reality, pointing out truth, pointing out FACT, has become irrelevant to the discussion.







 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
17. And since we HAD standards, is it not the proverbial cure for which there was no disease?
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:07 PM
Aug 2012



And, among many other anomalies and contradictions is this:

>>>>It started a couple of decades ago, at the state level in many states. In CA, where I was teaching at the time, we had the API. We were suddenly expected to keep a document, to be turned in at the beginning and end of every term, that listed all the dates we taught each individual standard; the time spent testing increased tenfold, and we began to lose autonomy in our classrooms. >>>>

I thought RWers are supposed to be against bloated bureaucracy, red tape and needless paperwork. Particularly where it impacts governmental institutions. ( like public schools). "New" standards", "new" ( and obsessive) testing, and school "reform" in general is about NOTHING if it is not about exponentially increasing the civil servant's ( in this case, the teacher's) time OFF task. I.e doing paperwork.

Should't conservatives want public school teachers to be , ummm, *teaching*? At least most of the time? What I was doing the last few years before I retired was NOT teaching.

I'm really not sure WHAT it was, but it was not teaching.

"The Standards Movement Meets The Special Ed Bureaucracy." Genre: Disaster Film; Sci. Fi;



>>>>At the time, I talked to one of my former professors, who was our head district psychologist, about it. He taught the "psychological measurement" course I took that focused on standardized testing. I asked him if it were really statistically possible for any teacher, school, or district to meet the test score mandates in the new laws, because, based on the class he taught me, it was statistically impossible. He told me I was right. Before the movement even went national with NCLB.

We KNEW this before it even got off the ground.

That's how I explain the standards movement without reading the link.

Having read the link, I'll say that one of the things we learned in the above mentioned course was that the most reliable predictor of any standardized academic test's results was parent income and education level.

Ravitch nails this repeatedly.

In a culture that's become immune to fact, standing defiantly on the right to "believe" whatever about any topic, pointing out reality, pointing out truth, pointing out FACT, has become irrelevant to the discussion. >>>>


OK. I'm stealing that last line. I wrote it. You didn't.

Seriously. Thanks. You "certainly have a way of getting at things." ( 5 pt. bonus if you can identify the film.)

Shagman

(135 posts)
19. here's an explanation
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 05:55 PM
Sep 2012

The right-wing scheme to take over this country has always included destroying the public school system. it's right there in the Powell memo, along with controlling the media, discrediting academia, flooding Washington with lobbyists, and packing the courts.

It's a very simple strategy. Cut education funding. Give teachers and schools more responsibilities. Create testing systems that are guaranteed to produce bad results. Blame the teacher's unions for everything.

Then point to the decline in the schools as some inherent failing. Use that as a reason to cut funding. Start the cycle again.

Poor schools produce poor citizens who will believe and do what they're told. They can't do good work but they do work cheap.

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