Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumElectricity's looking rather ugly in Europe today.
The wind isn't blowing, and we're coming up on the winter solstice, so sunlight is neither intense nor long lived. As a result, lots and lots and lots of coal and gas are being burned to generate electricity.
I'll bet my French friends are regretting deciding to just use their nuclear reactors as cash cows, deprived them of maintenance, to finance a movement to so called "renewable energy," Europe's pop idea that ended up financing Putin.
Ugly...very ugly...
Electricity Map
The latest calculation for the carbon intensity of nuclear energy (UNECE) is well under 10 g CO2/kWh, but nuclear energy is considered "too dangerous" but climate change isn't considered "too dangerous."
Go figure.
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Marcus IM
(2,210 posts)Many like Turkey Point in S.E. Florida. Which is like the system that failed in Fukushima. One would think this might have been changed and updated ... but ... nope.
Sea level rise has already put it and all S Floridians in danger.
Tick tick tick.
NNadir
(33,527 posts)...soon at a scientific meeting.
Quick question since so many people think fear of radiation outweighs the reality of climate change...
Which killed more people in the 2011 Tokoku earthquake that destroyed the reactors, seawater or radiation?
Another question:
How many people died from radiation exposure at Fukushima?
And here's a question for which I can provide an answer but which anti-nukes generally ignore:
How many people died from air pollution since the Fukushima fetish took hold.
Anyone can look the answer up if they give a rat's ass, but they don't give a rat's ass. They're mired in selective attention, driven by the "but her emails" media.
I don't know why you responded this way.
I am merely suggesting that unsafe design flaws really should be upgraded for safety.
Hillary's emails?
NNadir
(33,527 posts)...muttering the words, "Fukushima," or "Chernobyl" or "Three Mile Island" either alone or in combination of 2 or 3, as if, in their (withered) minds this ends all conversation.
I'm not sure how much money should be spent to make nuclear reactors "safer" when we're burning coal and other dangerous fossil fuels kill people continuously in vast numbers. It would have been a good idea to have built the reactors at Fukushima differently, without the back up generators in the basement, or perhaps, even better, to have built thermoelectric generators powered by used nuclear fuel in its cooling phase.
This said, I don't oppose safety improvements to existing reactors if and when they are reasonable.
In a rational world, in my opinion, decisions about infrastructure investment should be risk based, for example, using the expectation value, the probability of an event and the likely outcome in lives lost. Were this the case the most reasonable expenditure would be to provide clean sanitation to the two billion people on this planet who lack it, for one example.
The estimates of potential losses of lives associated with failed reactors that guide our regulatory environment are based on 1930's and 1940's science, some of which was apparently involved in suspect work. This is the LNT (linear no-threshold) hypothesis, often stated by dumb people as "there is no safe level of radioactivity." The LNT is extremely primitive, particularly since the work on which it is based took place before the development of the science of molecular biology, a science that in fact, did not exist in the 1940's. Molecular biology does not support it.
The unintentional "experiments" at Fukushima, Three Mile Island, and Chernobyl - the latter being by far the worst nuclear reactor failure ever, and in fact, the worst conceivable - show that the risk of death assumed before Chernobyl and indeed before Three Mile Island - was greatly inflated. This is an observed result, not an extrapolation of the LNT hypothesis, which should be considered absurd on its face, on reflection, since all human beings must contain radioactive potassium-40 to remain alive; indeed all living things require potassium, which has always contained potassium-40, and they always will.
I'm thus very, very, very, very sensitive about even talking about Fukushima as if it mattered. On scale, it doesn't. People all around the world dropped dead from extreme heat. Major rivers disappeared. Glaciers on which billions of people depend for their water supply melted, causing 1/3 of Pakistan to go under water. Major ecosystems are collapsing, and in the forest case, are doing so by fire. Eighteen thousand people will die today from exposure to air pollution, at a rate of around 7 million per year.
And yet people want to talk all about Fukushima?
I'm sorry if my trigger finger was fast, but for the life of me, I have a hard time figuring out why it is that Fukushima is so damned important, the point of my post on the disastrous public mentality that has taken hold in Europe with respect to energy, a mentality that is killing the whole planet wherever it shows up, in Europe or elsewhere.
As for "Hillary's emails," I am merely noting how many articles have appeared in the media, let's say in the New York Times, for example, on Fukushima as opposed to discussions of the 18,000 people who will die today from dangerous fossil fuel waste, aka "air pollution" without a peep from the media.
To me, these two things are intertwined, media attention on Fukushima and media attention on Hillary's email, and now, Hunter Biden's laptop.
Have a nice afternoon.
Marcus IM
(2,210 posts)Which, as you probably know, came close to having the spent fuel reservoirs boil over after a few major and minor hurricanes.
It's an issue to me out of concern for my family, and FPL isn't exactly a stellar operation regarding safety.
As to the fast trigger finger ... all good.
I hope you have a nice afternoon too.
NNadir
(33,527 posts)...spent fuel rods would have mattered quite as much to your family as the normal operations of a coal plant would have.
The supposed risks of used nuclear fuel are always exaggerated and always reported, almost 100% of the time using conditional words, "could have," "might have," etc. Deaths from dangerous fossil fuels are not, even though conditional words are not required to show they kill people.
If FPL had built a coal plant where Turkey Point is, there would have been no effort to improve "safety," at all. A coal plant kills people whenever it operates normally, not just in a theoretical "safety issue" raised about used nuclear fuel. There is NO safety in coal operations. These operations always result in fatalities.
Used nuclear fuel is different than used fossil fuel in that it has a spectacular record in not killing anyone, anywhere, at any time in this country, whereas used fossil fuel, aka air pollution, has killed tens of millions of people in this country and continues to do so.
If I lived in Florida, I'd be far more worried about seawater than I would be about Turkey Point. Disasters associated with the former are now extremely likely, whereas a disaster at Turkey Point involving fatalities, while certainly not impossible, are extremely unlikely.
I remarked on the cooling rates of used nuclear fuel elsewhere: Some comments on the war situation with Chernobyl as well as the operable nuclear plants in Ukraine.
I personally think the storage of used nuclear fuels in pools is a wasteful, bad idea, even though the practice is widely used, in fact, used almost exclusively. I would prefer that they be stored in thermoelectric devices designed to be air cooled, or, even better, reprocessed on site while still hot in a pyro-processing scheme.
I would be very happy to have a nuclear plant in my town, especially one with in line reprocessing. I'd feel proud that my community is involved in saving human lives and ecosystems. I'm a little sad because I used to take my kids to the beach here in New Jersey in sight of the Oyster Creek Nuclear Plant, which has regrettably been shut and displace by dangerous natural gas, the waste of which, as I'm sure you know, creates significant risk for anyone living at low elevations, including but not limited to Florida. I used to tell my boys how important that Oyster Creek plant was, and one of them grew up to be entered into a nuclear engineering Ph.D. program. I hope that the time will come that he'll participate in putting the used nuclear fuel still stored there to use.
Vogon_Glory
(9,120 posts)There was an article on NPR yesterday about Poland facing a coal shortage due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Aside from dealing with the privations the Poles are facing, the article was a reminder of just how environmentally destructive coal-burning can be, it was a reminder that no matter what the rosy spiels of the anti-nuclear movements green-tinted Harold Hills, renewables just ARENT going to pick up the slack needed to keep an industrial civilization going.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)The best and safest form of nuclear energy is solar.
Vogon_Glory
(9,120 posts)While I disagree with the resident curmudgeon that solar has little use (I think it DOES have SOME applications), I think that it is clearer by the season that solar has been WAY over-hyped and that the USs (and the worlds) greenhouse gas and fossil fuel extraction/consumption problems would be a lot less if the environmentalist movement hadnt given into the anti-nuclear activists hysterical bunkum. Three decades of cheerful little souls touting solar panels while greenhouse gas emissions skyrocket has had a negative effect on my credulence.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)Even at a $.01 a square foot, those half-lives start adding up. That's not to say the problem isn't solvable, but issues often raised concerning available renewables can be solved, as well.
Sure, solar isn't going to do it alone. Europe powers almost 40% of the continent with renewables. The U.S. is at about 20%. We have wind, wave, hydrogen, geothermal, etc. to add to our renewable arsenal, too.
John ONeill
(60 posts)'On the level of individual energy carriers (fuels), the biggest contributors to the EU electricity generation system in 2021 were nuclear with 731 terawatt-hours (TWh), natural gas (550 TWh), wind (386 TWh), hydro (370 TWh), lignite (227 TWh), other bituminous coal (193 TWh), and solar (163 TWh)'
So wind and solar combined were about 21%. Nuclear was 29%. In the US, nuclear alone is about 20%, hydro about 10%, wind and solar combined about the same.
Geothermal is useful in a few places, where the earth's crust is thinner. Wave is BS. Hydrogen is not an energy source, it's an energy carrier, and not a very useful one.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)NNadir
(33,527 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 7, 2022, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)
They plan to phase out coal in favor of nuclear energy. They are in fact world leaders in developing a program to convert existing coal plants to nuclear plants by conversion of the steam source.
By contrast, Germany shit nuclear plants to burn coal.
Vogon_Glory
(9,120 posts)But in the here-and-now theyre still stuck with using a lot of coal-age tech like individual home/building furnaces until they convert. Also people ought to be reminded just how filthy coal heating is and was.j
NNadir
(33,527 posts)...but unlike other European countries, they are working to fix their problem, not, as the Germans have done, make the problem worse.
I am tracking Poland closely. It can prove, in the end, to be a real win in the battle against climate change.
I'm an admirer of the Polish Mathematician/Nuclear Engineer Jerzy Cetnar, one of the main contributors to the effort to make Poland fossil fuel free.