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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:28 PM Sep 2012

Bill McKibben: This is how the earth works now

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/271-38/13377-a-summer-of-extremes-signifies-the-new-normal

I could go on and on with accounts of this wildest of summers: "refugee camps" for livestock in arid India; the warmest rainstorm ever recorded in Mecca in early summer (109 degrees), a mark that lasted about six weeks until it was broken in the California desert in August (115 degrees); traffic on the Mississippi grinding to a halt as the water level fell and fell and fell; a record area of the continental U.S. burned by wildfires before the summer was even over. Ad infinitum.

But best to end with the words of our leading climatologist, James Hansen, who in August published a peer-reviewed paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. As he had at every stage of the global warming saga, Hansen laid out what was happening with devastating clarity. There's always been extreme heat, he showed - but the one-degree increase in global temperature we've seen so far has been enough to shift the bell curve sharply to the left. In the old summer, the one most of us grew up in, 0.1 to 0.2 percent of the surface area of the planet was dealing with "extreme heat anomalies" at any given moment. Now it was approaching 10 percent. The math, he said, was clear: It "allows us to infer that the area covered by extreme hot anomalies will continue to increase in coming decades and that even more extreme outliers will occur."

In other words, this is no freak summer. This is how the earth works now.
74 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bill McKibben: This is how the earth works now (Original Post) eridani Sep 2012 OP
This is terrifying. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #1
And it is going to worse before it gets better. longship Sep 2012 #2
Everything we're getting says that we're in a feedback loop now Hydra Sep 2012 #5
Too late? Heck No. This is our responsibility and we have to fix it. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #14
Can you lift a 10,000 lb weight with your bare arms? GliderGuider Sep 2012 #22
I hate to say this, but you ARE being defeatist. No two ways around it. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #28
How is your description of the future in any way different from the present? GliderGuider Sep 2012 #41
True, to an extent, but I was trying to ask you to imagine in a world where things are 100x worse... AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #46
I've been imagining that world since 2004. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #50
It's only a truly lost cause if we give up. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #71
As I say to all those with your perspective, fill your boots. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #72
Sure then. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #73
And you too. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #74
Meanwhile, notice the giant absence of info/news about Fukishima??? dixiegrrrrl Sep 2012 #8
No one alive today will see it get better. NickB79 Sep 2012 #11
Mlllenia is a bit of an exaggeration. A couple centuries is more realistic. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #16
I missed this before. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #56
I may be wrong, though. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #57
Thanks for clarifying that. I was getting worried. nt GliderGuider Sep 2012 #61
Can't really blame you. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #66
We are looking up at the cliff we have fallen off. Warren Stupidity Sep 2012 #3
Just caught on a ledge. Downwinder Sep 2012 #4
Not even. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #24
Teabag Rapturists are cheering ErikJ Sep 2012 #6
The Corporate Media went go through this year spinning AGW as a Maybe... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #7
Sad but true. The hardcore doomer set didn't make things any easier for us, though, that's for sure. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #15
Let me ask you a question: Suppose we cut emissions world-wide by 50%... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #17
It would certainly depend on how soon we acted. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #20
A 50% reduction would decrease the rate of increase. It takes an 80% to 90% reduction to start.... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #21
Yes, your Senators aren't doomers, they're optimists. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #27
We're going to Green Wash climate change until it becomes unbearable... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #44
"It takes an 80% to 90% reduction to start.... a SLOW 100 to 1000 year recovery." AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #30
Here's three sources, starting with the IPCC... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #42
The last prediction actually seems to be highly pessimistic...... AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #48
Fine, as long as we address Reality and not some Green Washed version of Reality... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #63
I can actually agree with that in a way. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #64
It wasn't the doomers that kept you from acting. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #23
It's all your fault! RobertEarl Sep 2012 #26
Not the best rebuttal out there. Try again, please. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #31
I know you are scared RobertEarl Sep 2012 #33
I didn't say anything about McKibben. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #35
I asked you about Mckibben RobertEarl Sep 2012 #36
Wasn't my intent. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #37
What have I done? RobertEarl Sep 2012 #38
You didn't sound like a doomer to me. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #40
They may not have blocked the changes, that IS true. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #29
The reason that position is bullshite GliderGuider Sep 2012 #32
I'm afraid you're just not seeing the whole picture here. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #34
Links to my web site GliderGuider Sep 2012 #43
k and r niyad Sep 2012 #9
"July turned out to be the warmest month ever recorded in the United States, any month, any year." dixiegrrrrl Sep 2012 #10
Up here in Minnesota, we had exceptional blooms on the fruit trees NickB79 Sep 2012 #12
We don't have enough evidence to prove that yet. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #13
What would constitute "enough evidence" for you? dixiegrrrrl Sep 2012 #18
More summers like this year. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #19
Right. Just a few more summers like this year. Or last year. Systematic Chaos Sep 2012 #25
It may not be a coincidence, but I'm not ready to jump to any conclusions yet. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #39
We've kept wonderfully level heads since 1970. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #45
Most of us did, but not everybody. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #47
They will always find outliers to bolster their case. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #49
Only problem is, too much emotion doesn't help us stay focused. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #51
How do I define "walking away"? GliderGuider Sep 2012 #53
Interesting perspectives here. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #54
If you wish to see a transformation of human consciousness GliderGuider Sep 2012 #55
Been working on that. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #58
Absolutely! GliderGuider Sep 2012 #60
Sad subthreads within this thread bongbong Sep 2012 #52
What do you mean? AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #59
It would probably be good if you found another word besides "doomer" GliderGuider Sep 2012 #62
I suppose you're probably right, I have to honestly admit. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #65
Call them what they are. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #67
Good point. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #68
Well done! GliderGuider Sep 2012 #69
Thank you, and likewise. AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #70

longship

(40,416 posts)
2. And it is going to worse before it gets better.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:55 PM
Sep 2012

These non-linear systems can change state quickly, or even go chaotic. Hansen seems to think that the climate has clicked into a new state.

For instance, the jet stream seems to have moved north this past season. That brought a record warm Arctic season and accompanied record ice melt, blasting previous years by a considerable margin. The number of alarming climate papers is stunning.

I know that President Obama has advisers who know about this, but I am not surprised that he hasn't said anything about it in the campaign. He wants to win and a pissing contest on climate might not be the best thing to do.

But he is going to have to address this soon, hopefully soon after the election. I hope.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
5. Everything we're getting says that we're in a feedback loop now
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 05:53 PM
Sep 2012

The Obama Administration can't or won't address the issue now because it's probably too late.

Remember how much was getting covered up during the Bush Administration? I could lay a safe bet that during that 8 years was our chance to do something radical- say, switching from hydrocarbons to hydrogen and other renewables and doing other things to suck the man-mades out of the air.

Now we're seeing the results of that- Our food drying up, no water, crazy weather.

Whether it was entirely our fault or just part of the cycle, the Earth is now a less hospitable environment for us. We could have planned, made some effort to mitigate the changes, or at least set up new systems for us to use to live in the new normal.

Instead, we let the billionaires play with our money and put us all in peril. Cool, huh?

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
14. Too late? Heck No. This is our responsibility and we have to fix it.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 09:47 PM
Sep 2012

If we keep telling ourselves it's too late to fix things, then nothing will get done. Big oil will continue looting the planet, and things will keep getting worse.

These kinds of statements are making people completely apathetic to this issue, and this is a time where we can't afford such anymore. Now,more than ever, world leaders need to take responsibility and help fix this. There is ONE sure fact to accept here; the longer we wait, the worse things will get.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
22. Can you lift a 10,000 lb weight with your bare arms?
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 07:23 PM
Sep 2012

That's a close analogy to the situation we're in. Just because we broke it doesn't mean we can fix it.

It's time for us to stop thinking about "fixing" things (especially when what's broken isn't just the climate, but a couple of dozen interlocking wicked problems - including tipping points we've demonstrably passed already.)

It's time to think about the best ways we can come up with to live happy, caring, cooperative, altruistic, mindful, joyous, and even sacred lives in the midst of a world we have defaced forever. Unfortunately, "fixing it" just isn't on the menu.

There is a very good reason why the concept of "Surrender" is at the core of all the world's sacred philosophies. Unlike the defeatist Western interpretation of the word, this form of surrender means accepting that there are some things that can't be done, and choosing instead to do the very best of those things that can be done. We're about to find out for ourselves that the opposite of surrender isn't victory, but final defeat. I don't like the idea of defeat, frankly, so I've chosen to surrender to What Is.

Grant me this day
The courage to change those things I can,
The serenity to accept those things I cannot change -
And above all, the wisdom to know the difference.
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
28. I hate to say this, but you ARE being defeatist. No two ways around it.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:43 PM
Sep 2012
It's time to think about the best ways we can come up with to live happy, caring, cooperative, altruistic, mindful, joyous, and even sacred lives


I'm sorry to say that isn't going to be possible in a world full of deniers and AGW believers who think that nothing can be done to fix the climate. Guess what? This is going to be a world where the Koch Bros.(or maybe their descendants!) are trillionaires, Big Oil & Big Coal have practically monopolized our energy(and illegalized alternatives!), and everything may very well have gone to hell in a way. Is this what we want for 2150?


There is a very good reason why the concept of "Surrender" is at the core of all the world's sacred philosophies. Unlike the defeatist Western interpretation of the word, this form of surrender means accepting that there are some things that can't be done, and choosing instead to do the very best of those things that can be done. We're about to find out for ourselves that the opposite of surrender isn't victory, but final defeat. I don't like the idea of defeat, frankly, so I've chosen to surrender to What Is.


I'm sorry, but this doesn't quite apply.....in this particular scenario, surrender IS final defeat, because the polluters will have won once and for all.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
41. How is your description of the future in any way different from the present?
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 06:46 AM
Sep 2012

Last edited Tue Sep 11, 2012, 08:57 AM - Edit history (2)

This is going to be a world where the Koch Bros.(or maybe their descendants!) are trillionaires, Big Oil & Big Coal have practically monopolized our energy(and illegalized alternatives!), and everything may very well have gone to hell in a way. Is this what we want for 2150?

I don't think we need to wait for 2150. This is very much the situation today, though they haven't made wind and solar illegal. They they don't have to - renewable energy is irrelevant when considered in the context of fossil fuel use, and it's are utterly irrelevant to the real issue at hand - how to reduce global carbon output by 80% to 90% within 20 years.

Here's the evidence, using data taken from the BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2012:

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
46. True, to an extent, but I was trying to ask you to imagine in a world where things are 100x worse...
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 01:25 PM
Sep 2012

How about a world where sea levels have risen by 100 feet and half the world's population has died from famine? Where dictatorships of all stripes now rule much of the planet and corporate dominance, already a major issue in our current time, has become truly total?
Where truly vast swaths of the oceans are polluted and drilling has permanently ruined many habitats? This is just a small taste of what we will likely face in a world in which we gave up on fixing climate change.....if you think today is bad, you'll be wishing for the "good ol' days". Which is why I'm dead set against the not only harmful, but false mindset of "nothing can ever be done", because guess who benefits from that? Not us, that's for sure.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
50. I've been imagining that world since 2004.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 03:19 PM
Sep 2012

That imagery prompted a long search for "solutions", and an ever-deeper investigation into the causes of our predicament.

My ensuing despair arose from the realization that the world is going to end up in that state or something very similar no matter what "we" do. I think lots of things can be done, but I don't think that preventing the endstate you describe (or something like it) is possible.

So I finally decided to stop wasting my time, energy, money and emotional capital on a lost cause, and instead put it towards things I knew would actually do some good as we move into that new regime - things that would benefit the planet and humanity no matter what state the world ends up in. Things like permaculture, community-building, and helping people reconnect with the sacred nature of life and their true Self. This is the same approach advocated by such notorious doomers as Joanna Macy, Carolyn Baker, Charles Eisenstein, Richard Heinberg, David Korten, Thomas Berry, Chris Hedges, and the folks over at http://www.Dark-Mountain.net

Please read a few of my articles and think about them before you shoot from the hip again. I've plowed this ground quite thoroughly for a number of years now.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
71. It's only a truly lost cause if we give up.
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:37 PM
Sep 2012

To be frankly honest with you, community building and helping our fellowman reconnect with nature is pretty heartwarming and all, but it's not going to really do us any good until we start fixing things, no matter how much we may wish otherwise(I actually went thru this myself at one point.)

Before I go you may want to read this Skeptical Science article:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-too-hard.htm

I do find it rather funny(and not always in a comedic way, either) that there seem to be a few remarkable similarities between the deniers' "Humans can't hurt the climate" arguments, and the "We can't stop global warming!" ones coming from the apocalyptic Cassandra set.

I came to the realization some time ago that sitting around and doing nothing will never help us out. Again, I should reiterate that we can indeed greatly enhance our connections with the natural world and build better communities, but we must also focus on not just mere adaptation, but also mitigating, stabilizing and eventually reversing, whatever problems we can, or it'll all come to naught.

(P.S., I did just start looking at your site, btw.....

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
72. As I say to all those with your perspective, fill your boots.
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 10:11 PM
Sep 2012

But you shouldn't expect me to share your point of view.

There are millions of things in life that are worth doing. Trying to reverse the flow of entropy is only one of them. I choose to do other things.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
74. And you too.
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 11:14 PM
Sep 2012

Seriously, I hope everyone who is passionate about some aspect of life gives it 110%. The state of the world in any given moment is the emergent, dynamically balanced result of 7 billion people all pulling in different directions. I find that idea utterly exhilarating.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
8. Meanwhile, notice the giant absence of info/news about Fukishima???
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:12 PM
Sep 2012

Almost as if it too does not exist as a problem.

NickB79

(19,243 posts)
11. No one alive today will see it get better.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 08:10 PM
Sep 2012

We're looking at MILLENIA of shifting climate patterns. Possibly far longer if the "methane bomb" in the Arctic permafrost goes off.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
16. Mlllenia is a bit of an exaggeration. A couple centuries is more realistic.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 10:01 PM
Sep 2012

But then again, we've already suffered.

On the other hand, though, I should also point out that it seems a lot of these predictions about the future aren't taking natural climate variation into account; I came across a graph posted by Nederland some time ago showing some data, and what was interesting to me is that it showed that we've actually been in the middle of a major spike similar to the one in 1998. I'll have to dig it up sometime, and I'll post it on here when I get the chance.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
56. I missed this before.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:00 PM
Sep 2012
it seems a lot of these predictions about the future aren't taking natural climate variation into account

Hmmm. This tune seems vaguely, yet distastefully familiar. Some colours are hard to hide unless you've used a really good primer.
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
57. I may be wrong, though.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:14 PM
Sep 2012

It just seems that may be possible, but I do realize that humans ARE the primary cause for today's warming, though.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
66. Can't really blame you.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 05:51 PM
Sep 2012

To be perfectly honest, it does seem that many deniers have begun to use more sneaky & weaselly tactics to either confuse people or to screw with debates.....such as saying one thing when they really mean another, that is, in the way that they are purposefully deceiving people.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
7. The Corporate Media went go through this year spinning AGW as a Maybe...
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 06:59 PM
Sep 2012

which is, of course, both a measure of how desperately reporters hold their jobs and the gullibility of the American Public.

At this point, the first snowflake in December/January will be used to refute Global Warming. Definitively.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
15. Sad but true. The hardcore doomer set didn't make things any easier for us, though, that's for sure.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 09:54 PM
Sep 2012

Remember those nutty Chicken Littles screaming about humanity going extinct(as a direct result of AGW!), and the planet turning into Venus's little sister? Yep, those are the doomers. And guess what? They proved to be a highly convenient stereotype for the Koch Bros. and all the other crooks; they took this small(although highly vocal) minority of people and made it look like every single person who believed in anthropogenic climate change was a kook, on top of all the other bullshit they were pushing out, and many actually bought into it. I have come to the conclusion that, were it not for the doomers getting so much attention, Big Oil would have had a much harder time selling their platform, because the doomers proved to be the-all-too-convenient stereotype. And it worked, sad to say.

All we can do now is keep trying to inform people. The one bit of good news is that the deniers are having a harder and harder time still getting people to buy their bullshit. Hopefully, we can soon start mitigating the damage.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
17. Let me ask you a question: Suppose we cut emissions world-wide by 50%...
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 07:20 AM
Sep 2012

how much damage, from where we are now, would be mitigated?

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
20. It would certainly depend on how soon we acted.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:07 PM
Sep 2012

Of course, although it would help, it wouldn't be enough to fix the problem. Several solutions have been revealed on this site over the past few months, such as planting mangroves along the Gulf Coast, and building domes to capture Co2 and other greenhouse gases.....I would guess you've probably seen some.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that we need to keep pushing.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
21. A 50% reduction would decrease the rate of increase. It takes an 80% to 90% reduction to start....
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:38 PM
Sep 2012

a SLOW 100 to 1000 year recovery.

All the treaties to date (which, of course, the Senate thumbed its nose at) were designed to keep us from the point we now find ourselves at.

We've moved to the point where the pain of really addressing the problem GREATLY exceeds the palpable reward - and the rewards won't be felt in anything like human scale time.

Carbon is unlike any problem we've ever faced. We had to act on faith to prevent the problem (which we didn't do) and now we're going to have to act on faith to fix the problem. And we're never going to see the rewards of those efforts. What you call Doomers are people who are wrestling with this Reality.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
27. Yes, your Senators aren't doomers, they're optimists.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:14 PM
Sep 2012

They figure if they won't see any results from a change for 500 years, then there was no problem in the first place.

Just a bunch of Median Josephs, actually. Like their constituents.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
44. We're going to Green Wash climate change until it becomes unbearable...
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 08:23 AM
Sep 2012

at that point, people will say: "OK, now let's get serious. How much do we have to cut back on our use of fossil fuels to make this better?"

We'll tell them what we've been saying all along: "Carbon goes up, it doesn't come down. This is as good as it will ever get."

They'll then kill the messengers.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
30. "It takes an 80% to 90% reduction to start.... a SLOW 100 to 1000 year recovery."
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:51 PM
Sep 2012

According to whom?

And what I call doomers, Junkdrawer, are those people who keep claiming that nothing can be done to fix anything, that Earth will turn into Venus, humanity will go extinct, etc. And guess what? The shoe fits. If you don't believe any of that, then I doubt you should be calling yourself one(I for one, would be insulted!).

We've moved to the point where the pain of really addressing the problem GREATLY exceeds the palpable reward - and the rewards won't be felt in anything like human scale time.


Again, says who? I seriously would not trust any source that made this claim, btw.....because every single bit of extreme pessimism has greatly helped the Koch Bros. and their ilk. It's a sad, and possibly unpopular around these parts, reality, but it's one we have to accept if we want to face the problems ahead.

Perhaps many of us may not live to see a complete and total return to normality. That I can live with. But throwing in the towel isn't going to do us any good, and guess what happens if we do? Then the worst-case scenarios may very well come to pass anyway....self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead of wringing our hands, let's keep pushing for change.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
42. Here's three sources, starting with the IPCC...
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 06:52 AM
Sep 2012


FAQ 10.3, Figure 1. (a) Simulated changes in atmospheric CO2 concentration relative to the present-day for emissions stabilized at the current level (black), or at 10% (red), 30% (green), 50% (dark blue) and 100% (light blue) lower than the current level; (b) as in (a) for a trace gas with a lifetime of 120 years, driven by natural and anthropogenic fluxes; and (c) as in (a) for a trace gas with a lifetime of 12 years, driven by only anthropogenic fluxes.

https://www.ipcc.unibe.ch/publications/wg1-ar4/faq/wg1_faq-10.3.html


Stabilizing Climate requires Near-Zero Emissions

Reposted from ScienceDaily (Feb. 18, 2008) Now that scientists have reached a consensus that carbon dioxide emissions from human activities are the major cause of global warming, the next question is: How can we stop it? Can we just cut back on carbon, or do we need to go cold turkey? According to a new study by scientists at the Carnegie Institution, halfway measures won’t do the job. To stabilize our planet’s climate, we need to find ways to kick the carbon habit altogether.

In the study, to be published in Geophysical Research Letters, climate scientists Ken Caldeira and Damon Matthews used an Earth system model at the Carnegie Institution’s Department of Global Ecology to simulate the response of the Earth’s climate to different levels of carbon dioxide emission over the next 500 years. The model, a sophisticated computer program developed at the University of Victoria, Canada, takes into account the flow of heat between the atmosphere and oceans, as well as other factors such as the uptake of carbon dioxide by land vegetation, in its calculations.

This is the first peer-reviewed study to investigate what level of carbon dioxide emission would be needed to prevent further warming of our planet.

...

With emissions set to zero in the simulations, the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere slowly fell as carbon “sinks” such as the oceans and land vegetation absorbed the gas. Surprisingly, however, the model predicted that global temperatures would remain high for at least 500 years after carbon dioxide emissions ceased.

Just as an iron skillet will stay hot and keep cooking after the stove burner’s turned off, heat held in the oceans will keep the climate warm even as the heating effect of greenhouse gases diminishes. Adding more greenhouse gases, even at a rate lower than today, would worsen the situation and the effects would persist for centuries.

...

http://co2now.org/Future-CO2/Targets/stabilizing-climate-requires-near-zero-emissions.html



NOAA stunner: Climate change “largely irreversible for 1000 years,” with permanent Dust Bowls in Southwest and around the globe


Important new research led by NOAA scientists, “Irreversible climate change because of carbon dioxide emissions,” finds:

…the climate change that is taking place because of increases in carbon dioxide concentration is largely irreversible for 1,000 years after emissions stop…. Among illustrative irreversible impacts that should be expected if atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations increase from current levels near 385 parts per million by volume (ppmv) to a peak of 450-600 ppmv over the coming century are irreversible dry-season rainfall reductions in several regions comparable to those of the ”dust bowl” era and inexorable sea level rise.

I guess this is what President Obama meant when he warned today of “irreversible catastrophe” from climate change. The NOAA press release is here. An excellent video interview of the lead author is here.

The Proceedings of the National Academies of Science paper gives the lie to the notion that it is a moral choice not to do everything humanly possible to prevent this tragedy, a lie to the notion that we can “adapt” to climate change, unless by “adapt” you mean “force the next 50 generations to endure endless misery because we were too damn greedy to give up 0.1% of our GDP each year” (see, for instance, McKinsey: Stabilizing at 450 ppm has a net cost near zero or the 2007 IPCC report).

The most important finding concerns the irreversible precipitation changes we will be forcing on the next 50 generations in the U.S. Southwest, Southeast Asia, Eastern South America, Western Australia, Southern Europe, Southern Africa, and northern Africa (see also US Geological Survey stunner: SW faces “permanent drying” by 2050 and links below)

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2009/01/26/203610/noaa-climate-change-irreversible-1000-years-drought-dust-bowls/


I could go on and on and on....
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
48. The last prediction actually seems to be highly pessimistic......
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 01:43 PM
Sep 2012

Which is kind of ironic, given that they're usually kinda conservative about climate change. However, though, if climate change is allowed to continue unabated for the next 100 years or so, who knows what could happen? Which is why I'm all for changing things NOW.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
63. Fine, as long as we address Reality and not some Green Washed version of Reality...
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:43 PM
Sep 2012

Bank of America promising to cut emissions 15% by 2015. To my mind, that's worse than nothing - it does almost nothing but it gives most people the illusion of appropriate action.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
64. I can actually agree with that in a way.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 05:06 PM
Sep 2012

How can Bank of America make such promises, anyhow? I feel that their words ring hollow, as with Big Energy.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
23. It wasn't the doomers that kept you from acting.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 07:49 PM
Sep 2012

It was the Average Joes. The ones who wanted better jobs, and new cars, and a better life for their 4 kids, and dropped math and chemistry and physics in high school because those subjects were hard and stupid and pointless - nothing to do with real life.

The "doomers" didn't block the changes. The "doomers" were the ones who rode buses and bicycles, remained childfree and knew chemistry and physics and math. They studied the chemistry and physics, and did the math 40 years ago. They said, "You know, if we keep doing this there's going to be big trouble just up ahead." Average Joe didn't listen then, and he ain't listening today.

We fucking well tried to warn you. And this is the shit you expect us to take in return? I don't fucking think so.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
26. It's all your fault!
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:55 PM
Sep 2012

You doomers are the reason everyone else, including the average joes of the world, are so damn stupid!

If you had just soft pedaled the idea, why everyone would have given up their jet-set lifestyles, learned to live sustainably and gone to church everyday.

But noooooo, you and the doomers had to shout from the basement to those high rollers that what they were doing was gonna crash the whole damn system, beginning with the environment, and leading to, well, doom.

******************

It's like this one average guy told me one day: "It's you environmentalists who caused BP to foul the Gulf of Mexico."

It is like you say, which is the truth: "We fucking well tried to warn you. And this is the shit you expect us to take in return? I don't fucking think so."


 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
31. Not the best rebuttal out there. Try again, please.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:59 PM
Sep 2012

I admit that you made me chuckle a bit, though.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
33. I know you are scared
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:54 PM
Sep 2012

Who wouldn't be scared? Why, only those who are stupid.

I have seen you several times now, claim that the doomers are the reason the truth has not risen as high as it should. Can you please back up your claim with solid evidence? If you can't, you should cease and desist with such unfounded accusations.

As I have related here on E&E more than once, the subject of the OP, McKibben, wrote about what is happening today, over 15 years ago. Have you read his book: "End of Nature"?

Would you call McKibben a doomer who has scared people away from the truth?

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
35. I didn't say anything about McKibben.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:23 PM
Sep 2012

What I have said, however, is that the doomers had good intentions, but it sadly backfired, because the climate deniers found them to be the perfect stereotype to tar ALL of us who believe in the reality that is anthropogenic effects on the climate, and how serious things have become. The blame, in this case, primarily lies with the climate deniers who purposefully dishonestly framed the discussion in a falsified manner, though I do honestly believe some of the doomers were being somewhat irresponsible.

I do get frustrated, but I try to focus on what can be done to fix our problems. Even if you, yourself, may believe that Earth is doomed, it doesn't hurt to help the rest of us find solutions. If we can concentrate on that one key thing, then there is hope.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
36. I asked you about Mckibben
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:43 PM
Sep 2012

And you are ducking the question. Why is that?

I suggest you stop pointing at your so called doomers and focus on just what you, personally, are doing. What are you doing? I imagine there is nothing you are doing besides blaming everyone but yourself.

What are you doing to fix the problem? Try not to duck this question too. You have blatantly asked for it and there it is.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
37. Wasn't my intent.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:55 PM
Sep 2012

No, I haven't read McKibben's book, so I'm not going to say anything about him yet.

Personally, I'm in a situation where I can't do much, physically, but I have been trying to get the word out as much as possible....though given how busy I am these days, it's not always easy.

By the way, Robert, may I ask what you've done?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
38. What have I done?
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 12:37 AM
Sep 2012

I am one of them there doomers you have been sandbagging.

Have been working environmental issues for the last 30 years and have been sandbagged by hundreds of stupid ass mofo's the whole time.

And, sadly, with a now broken heart, watched the environmental battles end up on the losing end. You will excuse me if sometimes i do not suffer fools easily, eh?

We, as a society, will reap what we have sown. All we can do now is prepare those who are coming up behind us for the truth. And hope like hell they can forgive us.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
40. You didn't sound like a doomer to me.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 01:59 AM
Sep 2012

I've been around a few of the "Earth will turn into Venus" or "Humanity will and should go extinct" types.....perhaps too many, and I haven't seen you saying any of that stuff. You'll have to forgive me for having been so cynical in the past, btw, but I was one of the many Americans turned off by constant barrages of "Earth will turn into Venus" type stuff all over the 'Net....I never did turn into a denier, but it took me a few years to wake up, and that was thanks to people like Peter Sinclair, and others, and they were just putting out the facts.

I'm a realist; I know how terribly serious this problem is and that the world's leaders do need to address the problems ASAP, or nothing will improve for us. And frankly, we have had to face setbacks in recent years, thanks to the downright evil machinations of the Koch Bros. and their ilk. Were it not for them, we would likely be in a much nicer position today.
We may very well face the mass downsizing of global civilization, and the loss of many tens of millions of people thru mega-famines, decades of at least semi-screwy weather patterns, etc. Some people may call me a doomer too, but I reject such labelling because I'm not one of those who believe there's no hope for Earth, or that humanity will go extinct, etc. What I do believe, is the reality that humanity does face an urgent, terrible, challenge for the foreseeable future in dealing with what could very well be the biggest crisis we've ever faced since the age of Civilization began, and that we MUST take action; the longer we wait, the more dire the circumstances. We have no other choice. But if we do, we can take steps to slowly, but surely build a better world for all of us.

You have already done your duty for 30 years, RobertEarl. Please don't stop now; the world needs more people like you. And I mean that sincerely.










 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
29. They may not have blocked the changes, that IS true.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:43 PM
Sep 2012

And I never said they did. But sadly, whatever good intentions they may have had, helped further pave the road to Zero Hour, because their far-out hypothetical theories and such made them the PERFECT stereotype for the Big Energy hucksters and their PR people; they were the perfect paint for the brush that was used to slander all those who accepted the reality of climate change, and to plant doubts in the minds of those who may have been more open to the truth....and the doomers didn't even see it coming, blissfully unaware that their noble intentions had come to exactly naught....but I can't really blame them for being manipulated, just as I can't blame those who may have trouble understanding the reality of climate change.

It's kinda like a nice old lady on the corner of a neighborhood of a Kansas town who screams doom when a slightly nasty-looking summertime thunderstorm comes on top of the place and many of the other residents just shrug it off, like "Eh, it's no big deal, she worries about monster twisters all the time", and so they don't heed too well the warnings that do come on the news(although some do prepare; "Well, even if there's no twister it wouldn't hurt to get our things ready and all". And when the F-1 tornado does touch down, many of them are caught off guard, because they thought it was just another storm, and many more are injured than what could have been in a more normal situation.

It may not be the best analogy out there, but I do hope you get the point.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
32. The reason that position is bullshite
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:27 PM
Sep 2012

Is that before about 2005 there were no "doomers" claiming nothing could be fixed. From the 1960s on there were a lot of people claiming that if we didn't act right fucking now, things might not be fixable later on. That is the Chicken Little claim that Big Energy reframed as "doomerism" and tarred all the climate realists with - the claim that you apparently bought hook, line and sinker. Up until 2005 virtually all the guys like me were saying "Pitter patter, let's get at her!"

Then in about 2005 we all realized that nothing was fucking happening. Nobody was listening, nobody was changing, the climate summits were a litany of nada - just window dressing. A few people began to say we just might already be in that place we worried about earlier that we'd get to some time down the road - in a corner we couldn't get out of. As time went on, and more people had more time to investigate the root causes, those voices grew louder.

I've got almost 100 articles on my web site that detail why I think we're screwed, and mostly it comes down to the human brain and our cultural narrative. If we could change our cultural narrative we could act, but we'll only change it after the crisis hits - not before - because that's the way our brains are wired.

A lot of us have realized this, and it has caused us to abandon the path you're on - we've seen that it has no destination, and we understand why that is. But from the first Earth Day in 1970 up until half a dozen years ago, we were all true believers in Hope, because we hadn't yet figured out what was preventing change. We thought the somnolent paralysis was due to a lack of education, or a moral failure on the part of leadership or something equally facile and superficial - but something amenable to education or exhortation. It turns out that the reason is neither facile nor superficial, and it isn't amenable to being changed by anything short of a massive change in the world's physical circumstances. Its roots are buried in our reptilian and limbic brains. These are the parts of our brain that hold the self-aggrandizing qualities of leadership and the herding instincts that keep us all together - following our leaders and blinding our rational neocortex to the simple fact that those leaders are leading us over a cliff for their own gain, while we all cheer them on.

We can't fix it because the problem is not in how we act, but in why we act the way we do. Your deep-rooted desire to blame doomers is simply another manifestation of the problem. The problem isn't "doomers" - the problem is in every mirror in every bathroom on the planet.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
34. I'm afraid you're just not seeing the whole picture here.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:17 PM
Sep 2012
Is that before about 2005 there were no "doomers" claiming nothing could be fixed. From the 1960s on there were a lot of people claiming that if we didn't act right fucking now, things might not be fixable later on. That is the Chicken Little claim that Big Energy reframed as "doomerism" and tarred all the climate realists with - the claim that you apparently bought hook, line and sinker. Up until 2005 virtually all the guys like me were saying "Pitter patter, let's get at her!"


Well, I'm sorry to say you read me wrong, and that your belief that climate doomers didn't exist before '05 is simply unprovable.

I've got almost 100 articles on my web site that detail why I think we're screwed, and mostly it comes down to the human brain and our cultural narrative. If we could change our cultural narrative we could act, but we'll only change it after the crisis hits - not before - because that's the way our brains are wired.


Link, please? I'm interested to hear your take on this.
Also, I think it can be legitimately argued that we're in a crisis right now.

A lot of us have realized this, and it has caused us to abandon the path you're on - we've seen that it has no destination, and we understand why that is.


Last time I checked, the path I was on is one of realism: yes, things are getting bad, and we need to urgently address the problems that we are facing, and may face in the future.

We thought the somnolent paralysis was due to a lack of education, or a moral failure on the part of leadership or something equally facile and superficial - but something amenable to education or exhortation.


Which actually turned out to be very correct.....not to mention the vast amounts of propagandizing that occurred.

These are the parts of our brain that hold the self-aggrandizing qualities of leadership and the herding instincts that keep us all together - following our leaders and blinding our rational neocortex to the simple fact that those leaders are leading us over a cliff for their own gain, while we all cheer them on.


That may be true to an extent, but do you think we would have made all of the social and economic progress that's been done over the past 100 years if that was the only factor? Sorry, but I don't buy it. If that was the only factor involved, TBH, we'd still have badly polluted urban water & air; Jim Crow would still be alive and well; people would still believe that the Earth was literally created in a week, 6,000 years ago; hell, the South might still have slavery to this day, even!

We can't fix it because the problem is not in how we act, but in why we act the way we do.


It's not that simple, I'm afraid.

Your deep-rooted desire to blame doomers is simply another manifestation of the problem.


If I was really doing that, I don't think I would have been as civil as I've been with you, GG. The truth is, the doomers were not really to blame for what happened; as I said, they were just used & manipulated. I don't play the "blame the victim" game; as frustrated as I may have gotten, and can still get with the doomers at times, I do realize that they were only trying to help.
I still place the real blame on Big Energy, because they were the ones who chose to be dishonest in the first place. They chose to lie, cheat, and destroy. Were it not for the criminality that became so pervasive amongst Exxon, BP, etc., and people like Dick Cheney and George W. Bush who enabled them, many of our problems wouldn't be as bad as they are now.

Regardless of whether or not we think Earth is doomed to destruction, or merely in for rough times ahead, let's try to fight for what's left. It's only hopeless if we quit. So let's try to do our part, shall we?
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
43. Links to my web site
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 07:00 AM
Sep 2012

If you go to the home page at Approaching the Limits to Growth you'll find links to all my articles plus an introduction that sets the stage. However, the articles I've linked directly below will give you a very thorough overview of my position, both in terms of what I see happening and how I've decided to respond, without having to wade through all my writing.

I recommend starting with this article, because it gives a reasonably compact precis of my views:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/50000_Foot_View.html

My take on population growth:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Population.html

On the institutions we face in our battle for humane change:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/GuardianInstitutions.html

On the role of neuropsychology in the fight against AGW:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/COP15.html

On how I think we can respond to the crisis:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Enough.html

And two articles on how I have decided to respond personally:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/WitnessCollapse.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Psychopomp.html

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
10. "July turned out to be the warmest month ever recorded in the United States, any month, any year."
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:46 PM
Sep 2012

Even before July, I saw problems at our place.
Most of our fruit trees did not have buds or blooms this year.
The nectarine, the plum, the peaches, the apples....nothing.
Only the dwarf satsumas bloomed, and sparsely at that. I gave them extra fertilizer late in the spring.
The lemon tree bloomed, but all the blossoms fell off, unfertilized.
The fruit trees are supposed to be sprayed with horticultural oil as the buds began to swell.
No buds, no spray.
Few bees. We do have other pollinators, but apparently not enough to do the job this year.

NickB79

(19,243 posts)
12. Up here in Minnesota, we had exceptional blooms on the fruit trees
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 08:11 PM
Sep 2012

The only problem was that, since it was a full month ahead of schedule, there weren't any bees to pollinate them My dwarf cherry looked amazing, just white with flowers, but had a few dozen cherries at best.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
13. We don't have enough evidence to prove that yet.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 09:43 PM
Sep 2012

It very well could become reality, but I doubt we're actually at the 'new normal' yet. On the other hand, we are certainly approaching that. Not good news.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
18. What would constitute "enough evidence" for you?
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
Sep 2012

And if you don't have enough evidence of it, how can you tell you are approaching something you cannot recognize because there is no evidence it exists????

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
19. More summers like this year.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:04 PM
Sep 2012

The 10 percent figure seems to be pretty flukish as well. We'll need to keep collecting data for a few more years before we can be absolutely sure that this is a new trend. If we act on this too soon, and we end up being too pessimistic(although given our horrible luck these past few years, who knows?), then it'll hurt our credibility, and credibility is what's sorely needed right now, even if we are winning again.

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
25. Right. Just a few more summers like this year. Or last year.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:33 PM
Sep 2012

Just a few more 118 degree days in Oklahoma.
Just a few more 130-plus degree heat indices in Iowa.
Just a few more 115 degree raindrops falling on your head in California.
Just a few more hundreds of thousands of square miles of melted arctic ice.
Just a few more extreme droughts and floods and crop failures.

And then we'll know for sure.

Cool story, bro.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
39. It may not be a coincidence, but I'm not ready to jump to any conclusions yet.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 12:57 AM
Sep 2012

We have been caught off guard before, and we can't afford anymore setbacks.

I can understand the concern, and believe me, I am too.People are definitely waking up and realizing that something's wrong, and that's good. But we have to try to be careful as well; nobody wants to be taken advantage of by the Koch Bros. and all the other forces behind the denialist movement, so keeping a level head, while not straying from reality, is best here, I think.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
45. We've kept wonderfully level heads since 1970.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 09:40 AM
Sep 2012

How's that working for us?

When would you say would be an appropriate time to get forceful? After all, we're already being taken advantage of by the Koch-suckers. They love it when we keep level heads, because it means BAU for them!

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
47. Most of us did, but not everybody.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 01:27 PM
Sep 2012

And Big Energy went absolutely gaga when a small minority of people started screaming about Earth turning into Venus, or humanity going extinct. They LOVED it, because it gave them ammo to use against the rest of us.

Those amongst us keeping level heads, like Peter Sinclair, or the guys at skepticalscience, have been the ones most dedicated to informing the public about the danger that does lie ahead.

And frankly, I've been advocating forceful change myself, if you've seen some of my other posts here.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
49. They will always find outliers to bolster their case.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 02:32 PM
Sep 2012

That shouldn't be any reason to expect those who think the more pessimistic forecasts are still too timid to keep their tongues in their pockets. James Hansen springs to mind here.

Frankly, the people who take the greenhouse meme to the Venusian extreme are not under our control. But, the expression of those possibilities should never be forbidden. I regret far more the people who try to keep us from exploring the outer corners of the envelope, than I do those few who sometimes go over the top.

In fact, I'll gladly make the case that a certain amount of "Chicken Littleism" is essential if we are going to generate the emotion required drive urgent change. The cool, rational presentations of the skepticalscience crowd - or those of actual working scientists - simply do not create the sense of urgency that I think we all agree is warranted. It's because of that "hyperbolic discount function" we have wired into our brains when it comes to risk perception and threat response. I address this in a number of my articles. Only emotion generates urgency, and the more emotion the greater the urgency.

I agree that collapsing into paralytic despair isn't helpful - I tried it, and it doesn't work - but if we are to generate any movement it's essential that people understand the realities of the situation. And those realities are dire to the point of catastrophe right now.

Unfortunately, most people are incredibly resistant to the idea that something as big as our global industrial civilization might be at risk. Given how far gone the situation really is, and how desperately people don't want to hear that uncomfortable truth, I consider the act of walking away from "environmentalism" - the conscious refusal to clap for Tinkerbell and go do something else instead - to be worthy of great praise. And if people scream from the rooftops their reasons for doing so, I say more power to them.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
51. Only problem is, too much emotion doesn't help us stay focused.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 03:27 PM
Sep 2012

Frankly, the people who take the greenhouse meme to the Venusian extreme are not under our control. But, the expression of those possibilities should never be forbidden. I regret far more the people who try to keep us from exploring the outer corners of the envelope, than I do those few who sometimes go over the top.


But those few people have become to be a significant liability to our cause, although mostly not thru a fault of their own, it can be said(and I certainly wouldn't ever advocate throwing people in jail!). Rather, the real root of the problem still lies with Big Energy and their lobbyists.

In fact, I'll gladly make the case that a certain amount of "Chicken Littleism" is essential if we are going to generate the emotion required drive urgent change.


I wouldn't have disagreed with this, except for the fact it's been used as bludgeon against us by those who wished to do this planet harm. A little ordinary pessimism may be warranted, though.

The cool, rational presentations of the skepticalscience crowd - or those of actual working scientists - simply do not create the sense of urgency that I think we all agree is warranted.


This may be true for some, but it worked for me, though.

Only emotion generates urgency, and the more emotion the greater the urgency.


Sadly, it didn't quite turn out that way in this case. Some emotion may not have hurt, and may have actually helped in certain cases, but too much of it actually turned people away; I can speak from personal experience on this end.

I agree that collapsing into paralytic despair isn't helpful - I tried it, and it doesn't work - but if we are to generate any movement it's essential that people understand the realities of the situation. And those realities are dire to the point of catastrophe right now.


True, but the problem is, people saying that climate change can't be fixed, mitigated, etc. is, too, a form of paralytic despair, and that attitude sadly hasn't at all generated the understanding or support we so desperately need right now.

I consider the act of walking away from "environmentalism" - the conscious refusal to clap for Tinkerbell and go do something else instead - to be worthy of great praise.


How do you define walking away, in this case?

I can sincerely sympathize with those who may feel a degree of hopelessness & despair, and frankly, things aren't looking too good right now. But even if we may feel hopeless, we have to try and do what we can. Because the one sure way for things to get worse is for us to do nothing.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
53. How do I define "walking away"?
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 03:46 PM
Sep 2012

I would define it as finding solutions that are outside or orthogonal to the problem space, and choosing to put one's efforts into them - and stopping one's involvement with traditional environmentalism that tries to work within the problem space.

This may give you an idea of what I mean - it's one of my articles that I've asked you to read. I readily admit that I take a more abstract approach than some other walkoffs do, but that's just because of who I am. Other people find different expressions that are consistent with their own personalities.

Bearing Witness to Collapse

Once I understood and accepted that the disintegration of our civilization is already underway, I spent a number of years trying to get people to change their beliefs and their behaviour. I felt that if they made the changes I was proposing they could make a "good" outcome more likely. I was disappointed when my exhortations and hectoring fell on mostly deaf ears - whenever I wasn't just preaching to the choir, that is. It was Cassandra's dilemma too.

The more I tried to promote change, however, the more I suffered. But the suffering didn't spring simply from the pain of disappointment. It went much deeper than that, and eventually precipitated my Dark Night of the Soul. The Buddha was right when he taught that all suffering springs from attachment. In my case the attachment was to a particular outcome - my vision of a sustainable, just, ecologically conscious society that made room for all living things on the planet, not just our relatives and friends. When that outcome was thwarted through public indifference and even hostility, I suffered mightily.

Fortunately, I went through a transformation about three years ago. The shift was complete enough that it enabled me to detach from outcomes while still remaining committed to the awareness of what's going on. At the same time I adopted the position that this reality is co-created by all its participants, and that at some level the nature of reality and our individual roles in it have been consciously chosen by us all. At that point, I realized that I had been working at cross purposes to the reality that was unfolding. The ongoing transformation, even if it becomes a collapse of civilization, is not meant to be stopped. Rather, it is the vessel within which our conscious awareness is being nurtured, developed and annealed. This leads to the rather uncomfortable conclusion that the collapse is not to be lamented or prevented, but rather to be celebrated and engaged. It will come as no surprise to those on similar journeys that when I surrendered to this understanding, my suffering ceased.

From that perspective, I decided that the most useful thing I can do - something that is aligned with the point of the exercise rather than in opposition to it - is simply to contribute my little bits of awareness to the field. I try to do it without expectation or attachment, without trying to elicit a particular response or outcome. Just put the awareness out there. Those who aren't ready for it yet will ignore or reject it, those who don't yet see it but are ready may awaken a bit more, those who are already aware may find some fresh nuance to play with. Whatever role my observations and discussions play in the unfoldment is the part they are meant to play. This is what I call "vocal witnessing".

I still care very deeply about what's happening, but I now remain relatively unattached to how it might unfold in the future. As a result I avoid talking about solutions as much as possible, largely because I don't think there are any - at least at the level most people think of "solutions" (like new policies or new technologies) The point of all this apparently catastrophic unfoldment is not for us to "solve the problem", but for for us to wake up.

I agree completely with the writer Charles Eisenstein ("The Ascent of Humanity&quot and other observers - we do not have a soluble problem, we have an insoluble predicament. Because of that, our most useful response will be at right angles to the problem space. That means that the door out of this mess isn't going to be opened by a new version of our old ways (new legislation, clean energy and more recycling) although that will play a role. The real doorway out will be found by shifting into a completely new way of being - the revolution of consciousness that so many of us know in our bones is just around the corner.

These days I'm putting all my chips on abetting that r/evolution of human consciousness, by acting as a vocal witness to the unfolding collapse.

Within the community of the environmentally and ecologically aware, this is an uncommon position, although perhaps less so among those who have chosen a spiritual response to their apprehension of collapse. Within the mainstream of activist thought it is still viewed as fatalism and defeatism.

How does thinking about this perspective make you feel? Do you think it is a useful point of view or not? Is it helpful or dangerous? Is it an approach you have taken, or could see yourself taking? Or does it feel like sophistry - simply a tricky justification for fiddling while Rome burns?
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
54. Interesting perspectives here.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 03:54 PM
Sep 2012

I would indeed like to see a transformation of human consciousness.......but it may indeed take a collapse of global civilization for that to truly begin.

Thanks for sharing that. =)

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
55. If you wish to see a transformation of human consciousness
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 03:57 PM
Sep 2012

Start by transforming your own. It works miracles.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
58. Been working on that.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:21 PM
Sep 2012

It's been a long and hard process for me personally, but I hope to complete this task one day. Wish me luck.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
60. Absolutely!
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:33 PM
Sep 2012

You'll never complete the task, but with a lot of hard work and a bit of grace, at some point the search will be over.

A surprising number of the people who take the global clusterfuck seriously are on the road to self-realization. It seems to go with the territory.

I found that banishing the word "should" from my vocabulary, and realizing that "right" and "wrong" are mistaken concepts gave me a good beginning. Those two changes have really helped me navigate the minefield of environmentalism and all the other domains of the clusterfuck, with all their unquestioned moralism. I still speak strongly about some things, as you've seen, but the storms are more deliberate now, and pass quickly.

Good luck, and have fun discovering yourself.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
52. Sad subthreads within this thread
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 03:43 PM
Sep 2012

I've been saying for a couple of years that once Climate Change gets real obvious, there will be people who blame it on Liberals. Blaming it on the people who were trying to stop it....

Look within this thread for some of what I was talking about.

Sometimes I hate being proven right.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
59. What do you mean?
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:33 PM
Sep 2012

If you're referring to some of the stuff I've wrote, by the way, you've gotten the wrong impression.

It is indeed true that I've been unhappy, and lately, quite frustrated with the doomers....and I don't think I'm alone in this. On the other hand, I have made clear that one of the roots of the problem is the fact that Big Energy basically gave birth to the denialist movement. Without that one factor, the machinations of the Kochs and their ilk, we would have been in a far better position.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
62. It would probably be good if you found another word besides "doomer"
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:40 PM
Sep 2012

for the people you're referring to. A lot of us self-identify with that label, so your critique sounds like an attack. That causes fairly heated reactions. I've come to realize you're using the word in a sloppy, shorthand way with a different connotation altogether than the affectionate one that's grown up here (and elsewhere). That degree of imprecision around an emotionally loaded word never promotes effective communication.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
67. Call them what they are.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 06:51 PM
Sep 2012

Assholes.

I was thinking more about this on the bus home just now, and I realized a lot of the problem here stemmed from language. Maybe a careful discussion of terminology and usage is in order. As much for my own clarity as anything, I'd like to take a stab at it.

There is a large(ish) group of people who believe that the human experience has passed some kind of bifurcation point, and that rapid, irreversible, entropic social and ecological change is underway with much more to come. There are many differing ideas about what that bifurcation point might be, the nature of the changes we are entering, how deep the decline might be, what aspects of it can be stopped or reversed, and what the appropriate responses might be. One fairly common meme in this group is that unbridled material/economic growth and a refusal to recognize limits play a large role in the unfolding events.

Of course, the ideas of slowing or stopping economic growth and respecting limits are anathema to TPTB, so they had to find a way to marginalize these people and keep such ideas out of the public square if at all possible. This was urgent, because the evidence was beginning to pile up that these people were right.

TPTB looked at this proto-movement and discovered some vulnerabilities. One was the respect we pay to the fundamentals of Malthusian theory (essentially the recognition that infinite growth in a finite environment is impossible), as well as to the Club of Rome's LtG study of 1971. Then the Peak Oil movement came along, and the combination of that stream of thought with a smattering of complex systems theory made many of us aware of the possibility that a rapid decline in oil production could be extremely damaging to a high-energy society that uses oil as a keystone resource.

A few people (I'll name Matt Savinar, Richard Duncan and Jay Hanson but there were some others - including me from about 2004 to 2008) started talking about the potential for a complete rupture of civilization due to Peak Oil, with an ensuing die-off back to a billion people or less within a short period of time. This was the extreme outer edge of the movement, but it was just visible enough that TPTB could use it as a meme. The word "Doomer" was born, usually coupled with this picture of the "End of the World" guy to drive the point home:

[center][/center]

This identification was used to brand everyone who subscribed to a reduced-growth paradigm - no matter how mild - as a crazy, apocalyptic doomer.

Unfortunately for TPTB, no matter how much blunt-force propaganda trauma they inflicted on the "Malthusian hippies", the evidence continued to accumulate. Eventually there was enough of it that the scientists began to speak out (they'd been silenced by the earlier onslaught of marginalization). As more scientific evidence made its way into public view, a lot of people who previously hadn't been extremist in their views began to realize that the chances the "doomers" could be right was growing every day.

At some point, the doomers themselves repatriated the word as an affectionate shibboleth - an ironic recognition sign. This has echoes of the way blacks repatriated the "N-word".

Many of us have gone through long processes of painful discovery about the real nature of the world we're living in compared to what we'd been told it was. We have endured endless derision and marginalization at the hands of those in power, as well as their minions, fellow travelers and useful idiots. All through this dark night there was the realization that the evidence was on our side. Now the evidence is beginning to pour out from every corner of the scientific world, and the badge of "Doomer" carries a lot of pride for those of us who held fast to our knowledge of the truth.

So when someone comes along and begins using "doomer" here in its old, dark, pejorative sense ... well, it's as though a clueless white man walked into a ghetto bar, went up to a group of young black men at a table and said somewhat aggressively, "Whassup, n*****s?"

When you use that word here, it's best to use it with an ironic, affectionate smile. Call those other guys "extremists" or "apocalyptics" or something, but keep in mind that the problem many of them like Malthus and Meadows and Hubbert had, was that they were right on the wrong side just a bit too early.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
68. Good point.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 08:20 PM
Sep 2012

One thing I'm beginning to realize is that I myself, could be labelled as a doomsday advocate, simply because I believe that a possibility does exist of the eventual shrinking of global civilization and the possibility of losing hundreds of millions, if not 1-2 billion or more, people, due to mega-famines, constant civil strife, etc. So I'll be rethinking my strategy from here on out.

Cheers.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
69. Well done!
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 08:41 PM
Sep 2012

That was a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed it, despite what it may have looked like at the beginning. Thank you.

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