Within 2 years, 98% of the U.S. will be covered by Tesla stations. Free. Forever.

[joshcryer]

:O

They recharge for free. No cost.

This is a pretty crazy-ass way to put a middle finger to fossil fuels.

Shame these cars cost so much. We'll see if the consumer models are "free, forever."

[dixiegrrrrl]

1. Maybe people could group together to buy one

sort of a time share.
Might work in urban areas...

[eridani]

2. Just about any new technology starts out expensive

If electric cars follow historical precedent, they'll get cheaper.

[joshcryer]

30. Definitely, and since they don't use rare earths, they can scale.

One thing holding wind back is that there exist to my knowledge no production design that doesn't rely on rare earths, which is highly limited (20k tons or so).

[wtmusic]

85. Electric motors are generators turned backwards

and rely on neodymium magnets. No good replacement for it yet.

[joshcryer]

86. Tesla uses AC induction motors.

They're not DC motors.

A wind turbine with an induction generator (requiring a small amount of electricity to start the drive going; say from the grid or a capacitor bank) wouldn't need rare earth magnets. But induction generators are magnitudes heaver than rare earth based generators. You cannot feasibly put the actual generator at the top of the turbine tower. You have to place it on the ground. And that introduces a whole other problem with the drive shaft mechanism. I don't even know if there even exist a 90 degree drive shaft which transfers megawatts of energy.

[wtmusic]

87. Ah, thanks for info. nt

[icarusxat]

88. big energy thinking if you ask me...

they think in terms of megawatts. My cell phone doesn't need megawatts (anymore, I still have the brick I used to carry). What if we had millions of small scale generators that could collectively produce megawatts? Oh, wait never mind, that would mean that large power companies couldn't charge us for something that would be free...

[joshcryer]

89. Because larger turbines make more energy and spin slower.

The weedeater windmills in Altamont Pass were chopping birds up like crazy.

Obviously you should be free to set up your own turbine but it's not going to offset your energy usage by much unless it's rather large, which is prohibitive in the city.

Either way you cut it using rare earths is far more damaging than anything else.

[thesquanderer]

3. interesting, but...

...even the impressive 22 minute charge time, plus whatever time it could take you to go x miles out of your way to get to the station if it's not directly on your route, is not a practical fossil fuel alternative for typical drivers. (Plus possible long wait times if there are more cars needing a charge than there are unused charging stations at the locale.)

But I could see where, for example, placing a series of these along the interstates would be useful.

But the best electric car strategy I saw was the one that seems to have just gone out of business in Israel... where you pull in, drop off your battery pack, and they put a fully charged battery pack in it place, keeping and charging the one you came in with to give to someone else later in the day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/business/global/israeli-electric-car-company-files-for-liquidation.html

[PADemD]

7. Charging station availability

In ten years or less, we probably won't have to worry about finding a charging station.

Kohls plugs in electric vehicle charging stations

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/green/kohls-plugs-in-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/19649

Boston to offer electric car charge stations near City Hall

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/green/articles/2011/05/23/boston_to_offer_electric_car_charge_stations_near_city_hall/

[wtmusic]

8. EV owners don't think in fossil fuel terms.

99% of the time you don't charge en route. This is a great marketing strategy for Tesla but will actually cost them very little.

Better Place went out of business for a reason. Compatibility, bad battery packs, abused battery packs made their model unworkable.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. The Tesla model would work fine for me.

But I can't afford the car up front.

[FogerRox]

24. Most US drivers drive 35 miles to work or less

An electric car with a 200 mile range easily fits that scenario.

not a practical fossil fuel alternative for typical drivers

Thats horsehockey.

And the battery swap company went out of business for good reason, the idea is impractical. Why is it impractical? Cause battery performance & charging time make it convenient enough to not warrant battery swapping.

[thesquanderer]

38. Sorry, I meant not practical for people for whom it is not already practical.

Last edited Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)

To clarify... Electric vehicles today are very practical for many drivers, who, as you describe, need a car for typically short commutes and who can charge the car at their residence. These new charging stations aren't necessary for those drivers, and don't provide much benefit. The purpose of these new stations, then, is ostensibly to make the Tesla more viable for the "other" drivers, for whom the current model won't work... those who need to travel longer distances. It is at these drivers, those not served by the current charging infrastructure, that this plan is aimed, and that' the kind of driver i was talking about, for whom I see this as still largely impractical as a fossil fuel substitute. "Typical" was a poor word choice on my part... it was meant more like the typical member of that group of drivers who are in the category of finding current electric cars unworkable.

[Motown_Johnny]

42. They allow those people to drive cross country in the same vehicle.

So long as the charging stations are close enough together that you can drive from one to the next then you can take a road trip in your Tesla and not need an gasoline burning vehicle for family vacations or business trips, or whatever.

THEN.. you start designing trucks that can do the same thing and you start making those huge diesel burning behemoths obsolete.

Yes, that is still a long ways away but it will get here, eventually.

[jmowreader]

46. A couple things will stop electric OTR trucks from happening

Two hundred gallons of diesel weighs 1430 pounds. If you have a new truck with all the aerodynamic shit on it, you can go 1700 miles before you drain both tanks.(Most guys fill up every day, and you can go about 625 miles in 11 hours if you stay on it.) With this you can haul 43,500 pounds of freight before you start getting told to come in the weigh station with your CDL and paperwork.

The battery in a Tesla weighs about 1200 pounds. This will push a 3000-pound, extremely aerodynamic, car 300 miles. To run a semi 700 miles (so you can work all day without stopping to recharge because truckers are legally allowed to only work a certain number of hours) you'd probably be looking at a 20.000-pound battery. The government will not increase truck weights just to accommodate a battery, so this would mean doubling the number of trucks on the road...and I don't think the shippers want to double their freight charges.

You could definitely do an electric truck for local deliveries but for long distances, diesel has a ton of advantages...not the least of which is if you're in the Badlands of South Dakota or the middle of Texas and your fuel gauge is on a quarter, you know you can find fuel before the shit gets desperate.

As to these cars...these seem like a Southern California/ east coast thing. They are going to put supercharger stations in the Washington state area...one in Vancouver, BC, one in Seattle and one in Portland, Ore. That's nice for Californians who want to do dinner at Ivar's Acres of Clams tomorrow night, but they also need to put one in either Ellensburg or Moses Lake and one in Spokane. There is a couple in Coeur d'Alene with a Tesla Roadster. They drive it to Seattle, but it takes 16 hours (Seattle to CDA is a little over 300 miles and the speed limit is 70 most of the way) because they have to stop at an RV park to recharge. I understand wanting to protect the atmosphere by using clean hydro electricity...but they'd be better off with a Chevy Volt.

[Motown_Johnny]

52. A Volt Style (or Ford Energi Style) Truck would be the first step.

If the truck had a diesel generator, instead of an engine which drives the wheels directly, it would be more efficient. You could even have "assist" motors on the trailer so that the truck would only need an electric motor capable of moving the cab itself.

I agree that with the current state of battery technology an electric truck of any reasonable size is not possible at the moment. Then again, twenty years from now......

[oldhippie]

53. And I remember hearing that same line ...

I agree that with the current state of battery technology an electric truck of any reasonable size is not possible at the moment. Then again, twenty years from now......

... twenty years ago, and even 40 years ago. But we can keep hoping.

[Motown_Johnny]

54. But it used to be about electric cars and those are now reality.

Battery technology has come a long way in the last ten years. In many ways our hopes have been realized. Now we need simply hope for more.

[jmowreader]

56. Really?

The most popular engine on the road today is the 435-horse Cummins ISX. Hook the engine to a 90percent efficient alternator and that to a 90percent efficient motor and you now have a 350-horse engine.(435 is too small; owner-operators prefer 500.) Plus the generator and motors (plus the cable to take power to the trailer motors) would add weight.

I keep mentioning weight because every pound you add to the truck is a pound of capacity you can't sell.

If you REALLY care about tractor-trailer efficiency figure out a way to reduce the weight of a sleeper cab truck to 15,000 pounds (they weigh 17,000 now) without sacrificing durability. That will reduce the number of trucks slightly because the companies shipping 43,500-pound loads of small articles like food would be able to ship 45,500-pound loads.

[Motown_Johnny]

57. You can use more than one electric motor

the new Tesla X has two and it is just a passenger vehicle.

As a rule, electric vehicles use about 1/3 the energy of a similar internal combustion vehicle. Remember the Generator and motors (and cables) will replace the diesel engine. You need to account for that reduction in weight.

I am not saying this can be done tomorrow. I am saying that years from now it is the next logical step.

[oldhippie]

59. Huh?

Remember the Generator and motors (and cables) will replace the diesel engine. You need to account for that reduction in weight.

But you said up above, "If the truck had a diesel generator, instead of an engine which drives the wheels directly, it would be more efficient."

Uh, the diesel engine drives the diesel generator. Or did you have something else in mind to drive the "diesel" generator?

[Motown_Johnny]

62. I thought you were counting both

as if the truck would need both an engine and a generator

A diesel generator would be smaller than the engine. Lift the hood on a Volt. The generator is tiny compared to a V8. Even my 2.3L 4 cylinder is larger than it is and has nowhere near the torque that the electric motors provide.

[oldhippie]

68. Let me guess ........

You're not an engineer?

I thought you were counting both, as if the truck would need both an engine and a generator

A diesel generator would be smaller than the engine. Lift the hood on a Volt. The generator is tiny compared to a V8. Even my 2.3L 4 cylinder is larger than it is and has nowhere near the torque that the electric motors provide.

(sigh) OK, I guess we are done. Have a nice evening.

[Motown_Johnny]

70. Clearly I am not

but I don't mind being corrected. It is how I learn.

For instance, The Volt...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

^snip^

While driving, after the Volt battery has dropped to a predetermined threshold from full charge, a small naturally aspirated 1.4-liter 4-cylinder gasoline fueled internal combustion engine (Opel's Family 0[54]) with approximately 80 hp (60 kW), powers a 55 kW generator to extend the Volt's range. The vehicle also has a regenerative braking system. The electrical power from the generator is sent primarily to the electric motor, with the excess going to the batteries, depending on the state of charge (SOC) of the battery pack and the power demanded at the wheels



As you can see it has only a 1.4 L engine with ~80 hp.

There is no way an 80 HP engine can power that vehicle, with anywhere near the performance, if it were not generating electricity for the electric motor.

The same idea would hold true for this hypothetical futuristic version of a tractor trailer. You can have a much smaller diesel power plant (saving weight) in order to still produce the power needed for the vehicle.

The one major difference would be that The Volt is designed to run for a reasonable distance before the generator kicks in. I think that in my fantasy truck this would be impractical. The battery should act more like a capacitor, simply holding enough charge (and perhaps a little more) to insure that there is always power available. The generator would be producing the electricity needed much the way The Volt does once the generator kicks in. I think that if the vehicle is designed with this operation in mind it could easily be even more efficient than The Volt is while burning gasoline. Besides the fact that Diesel power plants are more efficient than gasoline anyways. Why there isn't a bio diesel version of the Volt is beyond me


Go ahead, pick me apart. I don't mind.

[kristopher]

75. It isn't you, you're dealing with solitly antirenewable posters

...who use screen names designed to infiltrate the left.

Your concept is legitimate, but it isn't a practical solution because of the weight a tractor trailer hauls. The probable solution will be electric, but, like most heavy equipment they will probably be powered by fuel cells.

[happyslug]

90. We know what is needed if we decide to go with electric trucks, they have existed for decades.

Trucks just eat power, this is due to not only their cargo, but the strength needed in the truck to haul that cargo. Even with Lithium batteries, electric trucks if they rely on batteries is NOT workable. Efforts in the past to use electric power from batteries has always failed, due to the need to not only provide electric power to propel the cargo but the also the batteries. This combination was the killer, the batteries had to store enough power NOT only to propel whatever was being propelled by the Batteries, but also the batteries themselves, even when the battery were almost 100% used up. Most Electric cars actual battery life is quite short, less the 35 miles and that is just propelling a 1 to 2 ton vehicle, including the batteries, not 40 tons that can be hauled by a truck without any special hauling permits (the Limit of the Interstate is 80,000 pounds or 40 tons, and that include the truck, drivers, passengers and the cargo, you need a special permits if you want to haul more).

Furthermore most trucks are NOT going 35 miles or less, but 100s of miles. The size of the battery to provide the power needed would quickly make the truck to heavy to haul any sizable cargo that it could break even on. Thus battery powered electric cars are NOT viable, even in urban areas, for even in urban areas most trucks do hundred of miles between when they leave their garage till they return to that garage.

On the other hand, electric trucks using photographs ARE viable. Such electric trucks can pull whatever power it needs from the over wires, and not pull it when not needed. Such electric Trucks would go up hills much faster then today's trucks, just based on the additional pulling power of electric motors. Seattle and other cities that still use "Trolley-buses" retain them for they are superior going up steep hills to conventional buses for the same reason, electric drive provides more power per wheel then any other propulsion source. Such trucks have been used in the past on Trolley-Bus routes and in strip mining operations. Electric Trucks have less moving parts, less maintenance and cost less to operate then diesel trucks. The problem is there are few overhead wires for such trucks to use in the US.

Some trucking companies have suggested installation of over head wires on certain western mountains interstates, so that electric trucks could pull the extra power they need to get over those mountains. Such companies see an advantage for such wires, they could operate a hybrid truck on flat areas and when that truck hits the mountain, hook up to the over head wire and pull the additional electricity needed by the truck to go over the mountain.

Such limited installation would be a good first start for electric trucks. Once installed, trucks who uses that interstate will look into using those wires by opting for an electric truck (mostly probably a hybrid at first). From that start, the system could be expanded, till all the interstates are electrified.

It was also proposed that these electric trucks have lithium batteries, for short hauls to areas without over head wires. Some Trolley-Buses have this today, to do short runs when disconnected from the over head wires.

Just pointing out overhead wires would be more cost effective then batteries with charging stations ever so many miles.

Now, AMTRAK is the only railroad using electric drive today (Conrail did prior to 1982, but converted to all diesel at that time period). Why does AMTRAK use Electric? Because electric drive permit faster acceleration AND an electric engine weighs less for it does NOT have to carry its own fuel.

Conrail opt our of using overhead wires for Diesel for only the old Pennsylvania lines had been electrified (and then only to Harrisburg PA, New York City and Washington DC) and thus most of its lines, former New York Central, Pennsylvania Rail lines from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and to Chicago, and other old Railroads, had diesels engines.

Side note: Diesel locomotive are actually Diesel-Electric engines, i,e a Diesel generator that provides electric power to the electric motors that actually propels the Locomotive. When Gasoline dropped to 25 cents a gallon in the 1950s, most railroads opt for diesel. Electric drive had been the preferred drive from about 1900 to WWII, and you saw a lot of Steam Locomotives replaced by electric Locomotives in that time period, but after WWII conversion to diesel was cheaper (no overhead wires to install or maintain OR to be taxed as part of the property tax Railroads had to pay local governments).

Yes, one of the reason the few Electric Trains in the US converted to Diesel, seems to have been electric wires and other such structures were viewed as improvement of real property and subject to local real estate taxes. By removing the electric over head wire, railroads reduced they local tax bill (like most conversion it often take more the one reason for the conversion to take place, in the case of the switch to Diesel, 25 cents a gallon gasoline plus reduced real estate taxes PLUS the cost of converting the rest of the line to electricity combined to do it electric train service in the US except for AMTRAK.

Off the trains and back to trucks. With modern computers it would be easy to determine how much power an truck pulled from any overhead wire. Every so many miles a computer could "talk" to the computer on the truck and get the data. The difficult part is building the over head wire system FIRST. Truckers will NOT opt for electric drive, until they are sure it will be useful. i.e. the system has to be installed on the Interstate FIRST, then the truckers will start to use it.

Now, I see the trucking industry converting to over head wires before the Railroad industry (outside areas where Amtrak already has its wires) for the simple reason rubber tires on Cement has much higher roll resistance then steel wheel on steel rail. i.e. trains are much more efficient when it comes to burning diesel today then trucks, and as such the cost saving must be higher for Railroads then trucks before they convert to electric drive (i.e. the price of Diesel must be higher for railroads then the trucking industry, for the break even point for railroads occur at a much higher price per gallon then it does for trucks).

Just a comment as to where I see Trucks going. I foreseen Trucks going to electric drive, but overhead wires instead of batteries (Overhead wires being preferred, but the truck actually having both). The alternative may be overhead wire and a small diesel generator for the electric power (in some ways this may be preferred, the generator and diesel fuel may weigh less then batteries capable of supplying the same amount of electric power). Overhead wires over the interstate and most other major highways but no where else (i.e. the truck will rely on their alternative electric power source for such small trips).

I just do NOT see batteries having the ability to efficiently provide the electric power needed by trucks, or more precisely, electric power from overhead wires would provide such power so much cheaper and in the amount and time needed that it will win out between the two system.

On the other hand, short trips, under 30 minutes, could be done by battery or small generator power and would eliminate the need for running overhead wires everywhere (and the cost to do so). It is a good combination, but it will take gasoline and diesel prices much higher then they are today to implement.

[7962]

80. A "typical driver" wants a car they can drive on vacation too.

Range would be very important to me, as well as price of course. If they can get these things to go 3-4 hundred miles reliably, it will generate huge interest.

[tinrobot]

63. The stations are along major interstates

The goal is simply to get you through the "charging deserts" that exist between major cities (which have plenty of charging options). These Supercharger stations are for those rare times when you exceed the 200-300 mile range and need to keep driving.

I doubt you'll see these on every street corner. If you're in a major city, you'll probably be charging overnight as most EV owners already do.

[Major Nikon]

74. The idea is for cross country travel

You plan your route based on the charging station locations, which ideally should be located in strategic locations specifically for that purpose. It's not that much different than planning a cross country trip for my airplane. I have to plan my route based on suitable airports that have the fuel I need. The difference in this case is that the fuel is free, so if you do have to go out of your way a bit, you might lose a bit of time, but it still costs you nothing. If gas were free in this way, I can't imagine too many people fretting over the time lost pursuing it.

[FogerRox]

81. Cross country family car vacations are a figment of the 1960's

And culturally the US is moving away from that sort of thing.

[Major Nikon]

82. By cross country I mean more than just a local trip

The range of the car appears to be 265 miles. I expect that Tesla's goal is to have a station at least every 200 miles between major cities so that you can drive the car to most of the places anyone would want to go for whatever reason they have. The limiting factor for electric only cars is that they are limited to where you can recharge them. Tesla appears to be addressing that problem in a very interesting way.

[GeorgeGist]

4. The stupid is strong.

[tinrobot]

64. Stupid... as in?

[Android3.14]

5. This sounds like BS

Free recharge? Pull the other one.

[Motown_Johnny]

43. What don't you get?

The company will provide the electricity for their vehicles if you make it to one of their stations.

It is a way to sell more cars.

[Android3.14]

45. I'll believe it when I see it

I'm all for electric cars. But free electricity is too good to be true. If it were a real plan, I'd zip over there every morning, get a charge, then toodle on home and run my house AC off of the cigarette lighter in the car. Heck. I'd get one of those reverse electric meters and just sell the electricity back to the electric company. I could probably quit my day job.
This isn't real.
Time to turn up the squelch on the ol' mental radio, folks.

[Motown_Johnny]

51. How much do you think the electricity costs?

Last edited Sat Jun 1, 2013, 07:28 PM - Edit history (1)

^edit because I had my monthly usage for electricity wrong (very wrong)^


Looking at my DTE bill I am paying less than 7 cents per kWh but I seem to be getting a better deal than most. It depends on where you live but for the sake of argument I am going to go with ten cents per kWh.







The starting price for the 60kWh Model S is $62,400 (after the $7,500 tax credit). Since this is the 60 kWh model and you might be able to sell the electricity for about ten cents per kWh that means a fully charged vehicle has six bucks worth of electricity. Less really because you will use some of the energy driving back from where you charged it and you will need some to get back to the charging station again. This is just a hypothetical so it is impossible to know exactly how much would be used. I am going to estimate five dollars worth of electricity which could be sold per charge.

Now the question is "How quickly can I drain the battery?". I honestly don't know the answer to this.

I will let you do the math from here. $62,400 plus tax title and license for the vehicle itself. Then there is insurance and maintenance above and beyond that. Plus your time to go to and from the charging station, all for something like five bucks worth of electricity. Even if we double the estimate for the cost of electricity up to twenty cents per kWh you still end up with only ten bucks worth of electricity per charge to sell/use. Good luck with that.



Link to cost of the Model S: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

Here is a link that has average electric cost at twelve cents per hour. We can use that math if you want but it won't change much.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/10/27/141766341/the-price-of-electricity-in-your-state


P.S. Yes, the mental radio does seem to need some adjustments.

[oldhippie]

60. I question your electric bill or your math .....

My DTE bill has me using anywhere from ~7 to ~13 kWh per month (depending on the month). So even when I am using electricity the fastest, with air conditioning running, 1 kWh lasts me over 2 days.

I don't think so. So your electric bill is 13 kWH X $0.07/kWH or less than a dollar a month? I think you need to check your bill again. Even if you use gas for your heating and water heating and stove, you'd use more than 13 kWH/mo for lights and refrigerator.

And yes, the typical house uses ~ 908 kWH/month. My 2000 sq ft house uses a minimum of 790 kWH in spring and fall, and up to 1800 kWH during the summer cooling months. I pay about $0.10/kWH.

[Motown_Johnny]

61. My personal usage is besides the point.

How are you going to make enough money to quit your day job when you will be lucky to get ten bucks out of each charge on the Tesla?


But since you questioned my energy usage...



sorry that it is a little small. use the magnifier if you have trouble seeing it.

[oldhippie]

65. OK, it's as I suspected ...

... You don't know how to read your electric bill. The kWH rates you quoted previously are your average DAILY usage, not your monthly usage. I'll admit that the way your bill presents it is kinda confusing. At first it looks like the bar graph is monthly usage, but it's not. Not sure why they do it that way.

And I'm not the guy that was going to quit his day job. (I already did, I'm retired except for a little solar consulting.) I'm the guy that calculated his return at about $3.00 per hour.

[Motown_Johnny]

69. To many conversations going on at once

I am glad I posted that.. clearly I did read it wrong. Thanks for enlightening me. I will edit my other post.

Even so, my personal usage is still besides the point. There just isn't any way for someone to use the free charges for the Tesla the way the other poster said. I didn't read your $3.00 per hour post but I will go look for it now.


Sorry for the confusion.

[oldhippie]

72. And I'm sorry for being so snarky ......

My internet persona is much different than real life, and I realize it. I get snarky when I get frustrated. And I get frustrated when I see math and physics being abused. (It's an engineer thing.) I'll try to do a better job of controlling my tendency toward snarkiness. You really didn't do anything to deserve it (unlike some others here I could name. )

I'll try to comment on the other sub-thread about the hybrid over the road truck tomorrow and point out a couple of issues in your idea. Too late and too tired tonight.

[marble falls]

73. Almost the whole DU community needs to take your pledge. One old hippie to another:

Thanks, man.

[oldhippie]

55. While I admire your entrepreneurial spirit ...

... I hope you have some pretty big wires on your 12 volt cigar lighter plug to power your AC.

I'd get one of those reverse electric meters and just sell the electricity back to the electric company. I could probably quit my day job.

A little back of the envelope ciphering: Hmmm, run over to the charging station and spend 10-15 minutes (if there's no line) charging the approx. 50 kWHr battery pack. Drive home and hook up to the grid and sell that 50 kWHr back to the electric company. For about $5.00 if you can get $0.10 per kWHr. (Oops, don't sell the whole 50 kWHr or you won't have enough juice to get back to the charging station.) With a typical home's 200 amp service that will take about an hour without popping your 200 amp breakers. So with round trip, charge and discharge time, and price of electricity, you're making about $3.00 an hour.

Again, I admire your moxie, but suggest you don't quit your day job.

[tinrobot]

66. I think it is a brilliant idea.

The power is cheap - because they use solar. The chargers are a fixed cost. The land is in the middle of nowhere, so it is cheap.

The capital costs are low, and it removes a major mental block most people have about EVs (range)

Oh, and the stations already exist. Not BS at all.

[enough]

6. The electricity for the free recharge comes from where? (nt)

[Triana]

9. Mostly, coal. n/t

[joshcryer]

31. Even with coal, they use less electricity than fossil cars.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-to-go-100-miles-than-evs-do/

http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline

[Motown_Johnny]

41. less than half isn't really "mostly"

but I can see where you are comming from. Even so the energy used in an electric vehicle is only about 1/3 of a similar internal combustion vehicle.

[Rain Mcloud]

71. Ah but the refineries use coal to make gasoline

actually to be more clear,the refineries use coal to generate their own electricity to refine the gasoline.
To make one gallon of gasoline uses the same energy to propel an EV 40 miles.
The long tailpipe is a bullshit argument.
Solar City will provide the stations and the solar energy to fuel the cars,it is run by Elon Musk's brother.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. 73% hydro in Washington State.

The rest mostly wind and sun, with a little NG.

(No reason the Tesla stations can't be solar powered or 'other', either, unconnected to the grid.)

[rightsideout]

27. Some stations will have solar

Elon Musk also owns/runs/is part of SolarCity so some stations will have solar panels to offset electricity from the grid.

The panels will be grid connected so when no one is charging the panels will feed clean energy into the grid.

[tinrobot]

67. It comes from a more efficient source than your gas powered car.

n/t

[4dsc]

94. All renewables are dependent upon oil

While a noble effort here lets remind people there's not such thing as free energy.

[BlueToTheBone]

10. Would they only be for Teslas?

Or would a Leaf be able to plug in as well?

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Proprietary fast charging system.

A leaf can't mate with it. Nissan and other car makers might license the technology in the future though, and offer it as a model option.

(The leaf's own main charging system is also proprietary, but the Tesla system kicks it's ass in speed, etc.)

[BlueToTheBone]

15. Well, then, it's middle finger in the eyes of all.

In order to reach economy of scale, they have to interchange. Old world greed has got to go if planetary life is to survive.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. The voltages are different.

It's not a matter of giving Nissan the finger. It's a matter of not melting the Leaf's charging circuit and setting the batteries on fire.

The Tesla has, among other design differences, a liquid cooled battery pack to actively extract heat while jamming the charge in. Tesla is focused, laser-sharp on the biggest drawback of EV-only vehicles: long recharge times, and this represents a light-year leap ahead of other auto manufacturers.

NOW, it's up to the other manufactures to catch up. Develop their own, or license the technology. Tesla can't hold their hands and do it for them.

[BlueToTheBone]

17. Thanks for that info.

Common technologies would help. But, it is a new industry and we'll see whose chargers are abandoned on the journey. Sort of like old electronics in the closet.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. It's going to be an arms race.

And, unfortunately, some consumers will get bitten, like those that invested in Betamax players, when the market moved to VHS, or HD-DVD, when the market moved to Blu-ray.

So far, the consumers that jumped on the Prius Hybrid seem to have made the best/wisest choice so far, with Gen1 Priuses STILL on the road with their original battery packs that STILL, astoundingly, work.

Which pure Electric Vehicle 'wins' or turns out to be a good long term investment remains to be seen. Other technologies can bounce back and surprise us too, like hydrogen fuel cells. It's not impossible.

Right now, Tesla's biggest hurdle is the VERY high cost, even by luxury car standards, to buy the car up front.

[BlueToTheBone]

20. Yes, the cost is prohibitive

and that's where economy of scale comes in. I wonder how long it will really be before carbon neutral vehicles will be on the road as normal transportation.

[donquijoterocket]

47. true enough

With better battery technology Electric autos would have been more competition for internal combustion right from the get go when there were several competing technologies- gasoline IC ,electric, steam. Not only the battery technology,but the transistor-based control technology made possible by technological advances in electronics and computing.The first gas/electric hybrid came out in 1911 but was too slow for the price and too costly to maintain.Hybrids and plug in hybrids are the wave of the future.The full electric may have to wait a bit longer. Tesla's is an interesting experiment in the business model.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. I could actually do something like 99% of my daily driving with a Leaf.

But if I change jobs in the next year, or something else unexpected happens, that could change.

I think I'll wait for the Leaf MKII, whatever they call it, or perhaps the next generation of the Focus EV. But I am basically right on the edge of pulling the trigger on grabbing one of these.

The Volt is interesting, but ... dunno. Still an IC car, at the end of the day, even if it's just a backup, more or less.

[wtmusic]

58. Correction: biggest perceived drawback of EVs by non-EV owners.

Right now the biggest drawback is price, and several manufacturers are ahead of Tesla.

Perception is important, but in reality fast charge times are not a significant issue.

[joshcryer]

32. Obviously you need a standard.

Gas pumps were probably designed differently in the beginning too, now you have standard parts on them that are seen across all pumps (one thing that comes to mind is the break away valve in case someone pulls off with the hose still attached, all gas pumps must have them).

In the future if Tesla is successful they will be able to license it. So all the more reason for them to build out the infrastructure as quickly as possible.

[BlueToTheBone]

44. Thanks. I realize that things have to shake out

But, when they do standardize then we can actually all take advantage of the technology.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Impossible.

There are always costs, even if it is the property taxes of the site hosting the recharging station, and that will be paid for one way or another, even if it is buried in the capital outlay for the car itself.

That said, this is FUCKING COOL.

(Looks like they are setting up a charging route for the 'mother road', route 66)

[Motown_Johnny]

39. Free to the customer, the company is picking up the costs.

[AtheistCrusader]

83. Meaning the people buying the cars are picking up the costs.

The cost is simply part of the capital outlay for the car up front.

[xtraxritical]

19. I believe it's free only for their highest priced model.

[gejohnston]

21. as soon as they get a model I can take down my dirt road and put the kayak on

I'm in. BTW, gas taxes pay for road maintenance. I know a couple of people who use B100 and E100, and got a bill for road taxes. How is that going to work?

[lindysalsagal]

23. Me, too. Gotta charge at work, and I'm in.

[Motown_Johnny]

40. .

You would need to buy Tesla's charging system and I would suggest the batteries for the Model S. I am driving a Ford Ranger with the intent of doing something like this, eventually. My mortgage will be paid off in about a year and I should be able to invest once that payment goes away.

[donquijoterocket]

48. Don't know

about Tesla but Subaru has just introduced their first hybrid it's based in their crossover which ought to give you the ground clearance for that dirt road.That tax situation might vary by the state you live in.

[riqster]

22. As soon as I can haul my bass amp and axes in one

I'm in. Here's hope.

[FogerRox]

25. :~) thats a legit concern, tube amps?

I have a Fender Blues Jr, about 13 yrs old.

Gimme tubes...

[riqster]

26. Hellz yeah, gotta have the glowing glass

'72 Ampeg SVT. Weighs more than some small countries. Add in 1 X 15 and 2 X 10 cabinets and a pair of basses, and you are talking cargo space.

[joshcryer]

29. The model X should work.

I don't like the gullwing design but many reviewers say it's super practical.

[riqster]

33. Possible. :-)

I'd take a tape measure into the dealership to make sure it's big enough/

[joshcryer]

35. You can see the reveal here:

They show how much room it has. But definitely seeing it in person is always the best way to go.

[donquijoterocket]

49. in the

picture of the X model reveal below that door looks more like a bifold airplane hangar door than the gull wing as used on the old Mercedes 300 Sls and brought back in the new SLS AMG GT. I'd think them eminently practical.

[joshcryer]

50. Yeah, Musk calls them "falcon wings."

I used the wrong word there, my bad.

Still, I think it looks ugly.

But as I said, reviewers were impressed and looks aren't everything.

[PoliticAverse]

28. 'Forever' - "I do not think it means what you think it means". n/t

[joshcryer]

37. It's a good slogan. It's basic branding.

And cost-wise it's far far cheaper than using gasoline fuel. It's going to be interesting to see how they are doing the numbers.

If solar comes down to a few cents a watt or even a few cents a kilowatt (Moore's Law), then it's completely dooable and they will win the future electric car war and "forever" will never be tested in court because it will be free ... for as long as civilization can inhabit the planet and the capitalist system is still adopted, etc.

[midnight]

34. This is really exciting....

[mettamega]

36. AMAZING AMAZING

and now I have to start saving up for a used tesla

[liberal N proud]

76. Tesla - The Game Changer!

Let's hope so!

[Bennyboy]

77. My Mind is BLOWN! (the naysayers)

Why when it comes to this, does a goodly number of otherwise sane people fail to see the obvious? they turn into almost republican lite with their "it doesn't solve every single issue when it comes to energy and is not perfect so let's continue with a totally fucked up system that we know poisons the earth and creates terrorism" point of view.

80% of households can supply at least 50% of the power they need through solar and it is over 50 % that can supply 100% of all electric needs. Your solar guy will come to your home and show you how, the very next day, you will be saving money on your electricity. depending on where you live, there are all kinds of subsides, leases, incentive programs etc available. Your professional solar pro will be able to navigate that for ya. I prefer the 20 year plan that usually rounds out a bit more today than what you pay for power now, but you own it and it is a better selling point for a home than some of the other ways to put solar on your home.

Turn your home into a power station. even if you can only supply a smaller percentage of power, it is enough to supply your electric vehicle. And at a fixed cost. Let's face it, if it is a break-even situation at the moment, when you figure in fixed cost versus energy cost fluctuations over 20 years, it is a no brainer. (gas will be what, $20 a gallon in 2023?)

out here in CA solar vehicles are all over in the farms. those little utility trucks are all over the place and are supplied with a large solar array that also powers the winery and all the buildings. Everywhere you look solar is going in. from big business to small and on rooftops in mansions and tract homes.

Imagine 85% of your driving done without supporting EXXON or BP or SHELL or whatever.




buy your Tesla or electric car. Use it go to work and back and run around town. Keep your gas car for long trips or until there is a system for recharging in place at your destination. That keeps the miles off the gas car (electric motors run forever and ever) extending the frequency that you need to spend and buncha money to buy a new car. 85% percent of Americans drive less than 60 miles a day. And that is within the range of all electric vehicles, including the Segway. Here in Sacramento there are FREE charging stations in every parking garage and in metered parking. they are powered by solar panels. So are the parking meters.

Solr Power works well enough that WALMART is fitting every store with panels.

[greiner3]

78. "...the U.S. will be covered by Tesla stations. Free. Forever."

I thought it said that we'd all get free Tesla's.

Sweet!

[drm604]

79. What does "covered" mean?

Will there be one near enough for people who can't charge at home? Will it be as convenient as the local gas station?

How will they generate the electricity? If it's coming from the regular grid, then there's probably no environmental benefit in most cases, since most electricity is generated by burning coal.

[happyslug]

91. look at the narrowest difintion, and you will have an idea.

The Tesla has a range of 245 miles (The roadster from Wikipedia cite on Tesla Motors). Thus we can use 200 miles as being within range of another charging station. The US is 3.79 Million Square miles, but the lower 48 states are only 2,959,064 miles (or 2.9 Square miles)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors#Smart_Fortwo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

200 miles range covers means a 200 miles diameter or a 100 miles radius

Remember the formula for area of a circle
Area = π × r2

π = 3.12 thus the area within a 200 mile driving range (the diameter) is 3.12x100x100=31200 square miles.

The lower 48 states equal 2.9 million square miles. 2,900,000 divided by 31200 equal, just less then 94 electric charging station.

Now for area for a square is side x side or 200 x 200 or 40,000 square miles.

2.9 million square feet divided by 40,000 square miles within any 200 mile box, you get 72.50 or 72 and a half stations.

Given that most charging stations will be closer then 200 miles, but you would have areas where it would be hard to find one within that distance, 75 charging stations would be enough to provide a charging stations within range of 98% of Americans.

Please note, east of the Rockies a County is about 20 miles across (East-West or North-South). Now once you hit the Rockies the counties grow to two to three times that size, but East of the Rockies 20 miles in the norm. Thus you would be within range of a Charging station if one is within 10 counties of where you live. A charging station in Philadelphia and another in New York City would not only over those two cites, but all of New Jersey and Delaware and all of Pennsylvania East of the Appalachian Mountains within that 200 miles range limit

Baltimore is just 100 miles from Philadelphia, DC is 141 miles from Philadelphia. Thus a charging station of Philadelphia would cover into Northern Virginia

Thus if we assume a 200 miles range, thus a charging station every 200 miles, you only need 75 to cover the whole country. That is the MINIMUM number needed.

If you define coverage more narrowly, i,e, one every 100 miles, you have to have four times the number of charging station at one every 200 miles (i.e. you would need 300).

I hate to say this, if I was Tesla, I would try to get a charging station outside every major city (and try for 4 in that major city). Elsewhere I would opt for the one every 200 miles. Thus I would do the 75 charging stations throughout the US, and then add additional ones outside the Major Cities. Here is the list of Major METRO areas. It is a City's metro area that is important, not the size of the city itself. Some Cities contain most of their metro areas, other very little of it, thus Metro area is a better guide then actual city size:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

The top 52 metro area each have more then a million people and thus a good spot for a Charging station. There will be some overlap with the one every 200 miles, but four per major metro area would be 208 (four per the 52 over 1 million person metro areas). Thus to cover the US 283 is what you would need, but you can get away with 75 (Get away in the sense you are NOT lying, but it would be a poor marketing , the additional 208 in the Major Metro Area would be a clear marketing tool).

Just pointing out, 75, which is NOT that many would meet this stated goal. 283 would be a better number (Through some of the Metro charging station would also be a one every 200 miles charging station, thus the actual total would be less). The goal is NOT that far out of reach, once you look at the number and see how few it takes to "cover" the US. I did not say cover well, just cover the US.

One more comment, many metro areas border each other. If you decide to have four per metro area, one to the north, one to the south, one to the east and one to the west of the Metro Area, you often will overlap anther's metro areas charging station. Thus to cover the US you may need less then 200, but that depends on how you define "coverage" and in the above I am trying to determine what is the narrowest definition of "coverage" I can determine.

[Warpy]

92. The plan all along was to sell enough speedsters

and other luxury models to be able to set up production of family sedans.

I'm really looking forward to that. I just hope I'm still alive and can see well enough to drive one.

ETA: anybody who thinks refueling them is going to be free needs their screws tightened. I can see recharging stations sprouting up for these, the Volt, and the Prius.

[joshcryer]

93. Apparently they stayed alive by doing in-house financing.

Which is actually pretty fucking remarkable and risky, at that.

http://www.techspot.com/news/52472-tesla-revises-in-house-financing-plan-for-model-s-buyers.html