Yom Ha’atzmaut resource list

[King_David]

The following information is provided by The Jewish Education Center Of Cleveland in Cleveland Heights.


http://m.clevelandjewishnews.com/news/local_news/yom-ha-atzmaut-resource-list/article_143b9fb0-e44a-11e4-af39-bf12b3535f51.html?mode=jqm

[Little Tich]

1. But isn’t the website promoting Revisionism?

Where did you find this horrible site?

[oberliner]

3. What Israeli Independence Day resources do you prefer?

Remember these are geared to those who are celebrating this as a joyous holiday along the lines of the 4th of July.

[oberliner]

12. OMG It's the Cleveland Jewish News

The horror!!

[Little Tich]

14. Check the book list. n/t

[oberliner]

22. They are pretty standard books one might find at a Jewish day school

Not everybody goes in for the "New Historians" - at least not until college.

[Little Tich]

23. I really hope that they have some other books to counter this revisionist rubbish.

I did a quick search on some of the books, and yes, it's revisionism...

I don't mind bias, but falsification of history is so wrong.

[oberliner]

32. Is there a particular book on the list that you think is "revisionist rubbish" ?

Or are you saying that every single one of them is a "falsification of history" ?

[Little Tich]

36. Gilbert, Martin. “The Routledge Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict.” Tenth Edition.

Just take a look. I’m not sure if you know it, but maps can easily be used to distort facts.

[Israeli]

30. There is a reason for that oberliner....

...one is indoctrination ....the other is the freedom to think freely .

[oberliner]

33. If you say so

I mean one can argue that all of schooling is indoctrination.

I remember learning about US history in a way that made the US look generally pretty positive.

[King_David]

2. That's a mainstream American Jewish community website

Your gripe is with mainstream American Jewry?

[Lithos]

4. Hmmm...

This is not a news item... it's a resource item.

Question to the community. This should technically be locked per forum rules. However, I have thought for a long time (DU2 times) to create a "Resource/FYI" thread with common links to items which are helpful to anyone wanting to join in. There would have to be some level of reasonableness to these. Ie, sources would have to follow forum and site standards and have some "gravitas".

Thoughts? Should I create a resource thread and let it be persistent (pinned?)

L-

[Taylorz]

5. I am all for it.

I would love to see such resources like that.

And also have that pinned for reference.

[King_David]

6. Why not give it a trial period and see?

If it goes nasty, discontinue.

[oberliner]

11. It's already gone nasty

See reply #8 which calls your resource BS/revisionist/false.

[azurnoir]

7. why sure but a couple of questions

are you suggesting this thread be the resource list or part of a larger one?

and if this thread is the resource list for I/P then would one with resources for Palestinians be allowed also or will that have to be part of this one?

[Lithos]

13. not suggesting this thread

Had an interesting alert on this thread which said this was not appropriate (true), but in the explanation made me resurrect my old thoughts about a Resource/FYI thread.

To your point, I would allow "equal time" provided existing controls would be maintained. No hate sites. No sites which diminish either the Holocaust or the idea of Palestinian Nationalism.

L-

[azurnoir]

24. Thanks and as an example would B'tselem be acceptable?

or even Adalah for that matter

[Lithos]

26. Good questions

Would have to think about those.

Leaning now towards a locked/pinned thread...

L-

[Little Tich]

27. I'm against anything that erases the Palestinian connection to their homeland.

I'm also against anything that erases the Jewish connection to their homeland.

I have no valid objections to something that's pro either side, it would work for me if most resources would be advocating Zionism, as that is the general consensus of the American public.

[Lithos]

47. That's been the main hold-back

I do not want it to be a "rah-rah" type of resource, but something which gives good background and helps expand people's knowledge. more of a Wikipedia site vs a Marketing brand management type of site.

L-

[Little Tich]

48. I have a suggestion:

If the sources were divided so there were a an Israeli perspective and a Palestinian one respectively, then they wouldn't have to be considered canonical by the other side, but could be referred to by both.

I would then propose Ilan Pappe for the Palestinian perspective, and if the Israeli perspective would contain some of the material in the OP, I could actually acept that.

[Little Tich]

8. Yes. A resource thread is good, but this should not be one of them.

This is a revisionist (as in falsification of history) reading list that promotes the idea that the Palestinians are just passing through, and that Jews have all the God-given rights to their homeland.

As for a resource list, I would wish to have something from Ilan Pappe and / or Benny Morris. But basically anything that isn't complete BS is good enough for me. However, if a resource like the OP here was pinned, I would have to stop posting in the I/P group.

[oberliner]

10. Ilan Pappe?

That's your non-BS resource?

[Lithos]

15. Only one of many

I have many historians and sources who I use. My contempt is more towards those who take a political bent over history or facts. You will find me against Allison Weir and Dershowitz while supporting Uri Milstein and Benny Morris. Edward Said is interesting, though flawed while I find Chomskey not so interesting and even more flawed. (Both are allowed)

Does that help?

L-

[oberliner]

17. Pappe definitely takes a political bent. He actively advocates for a total boycott of Israel

Academic and otherwise.

Also he is keen on doing interviews where he says things like this:

Professor Ilan Pappé: Israel Has Chosen to be a "Racist Apartheid State" with U.S. Support

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/28/professor_ilan_pappe_israel_has_chosen

He is the "Israel is the worst" yin to Alan Dershowitz's "Israel is the best" yang.

[Lithos]

21. He is definitely emotional...

But he is also just one voice in the equation. There are many, very valid and thoughtful voices who write and talk about I/P). Ilan is definitely one of those in that chorus.

L-

[Little Tich]

25. What about Benny Morris then?

I really don't mind anything as long as it's factually correct.

[oberliner]

34. He's kind of flipped a bit, hasn't he?

In recent interviews he seems to have gone back on some of what he had written previously so it's hard to know how seriously to take his older texts when he himself has done some revisionism on them of late.

[Little Tich]

35. I’m not so sure that he backtracked,

I think he rather justified the events that took place. His books on the Palestinian refugees would be a good source to use when the subject of how the refugees became refugees comes up.

[King_David]

28. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134100547#post2

[Little Tich]

29. What's your point?

Would you be able to stomach Benny Morris? He's the enemy of all things hasbara, but he is staunchly pro-Israel.

I think the subject of this thread has changed from bashing to actually being constructive.

[oberliner]

9. I don't think it's a good idea

One person's resource is another person's propaganda.

There won't be any kind of agreement among the folks here as to what constitutes a neutral resource.

[Lithos]

16. That's been my main concern...

You are an old timer and know the issues with maintaining a balance which allows for any norm of peaceful conversation.

[oberliner]

18. I definitely share that concern

From time to time guests have visited this forum asking for recommended reading on the subject. That doesn't ever seem to go very well. I cannot even name a single resource that I think would be uncontroversial for one side or the other on any topic related to I/P.

[Lithos]

19. Do you think that if I crafted a statement that it would be accepted?

I do not mind maintaining in a "locked" state.

L-

[oberliner]

20. Might be worth a shot

If you think it would be something valuable, then I guess you can go for it and see what happens.

[Israeli]

31. Why not ...

Let it all out Lithos....you are not dealing with children here .
People can make up their own minds .

I'm not a great lover of Benny Morris as an example of how you and I could disagree .

I lean more towards Gideon Spiro...who I am sure nobody on here knows from Adam .

ref : http://hagada.org.il/author/%D7%92%D7%93%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95

Freedom of thought ...freedom of speech .

oberliner obviously does not like the Israeli Left ...he even views 972 with suspicion .
Like he says " One person's resource is another person's propaganda.
There won't be any kind of agreement among the folks here as to what constitutes a neutral resource. " ......and he is right .

Your the boss ...you decide .

[King_David]

37. Everyone's "left " is different

I remember you for example on your arrival here on DU singing the praises of communists?

[Israeli]

38. :)

Misrepresentation..........link KD ?????

My grandparents were communists KD , so were Rabin's parents :
http://www.rabincenter.org.il/Web/En/LifeWork/childhoodandfamily/Default.aspx

You have a problem with that ?

They were Hashomer Hatzair :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashomer_Hatzair
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/artzi.html

I'm a socialist KD .....what are you ??

[King_David]

39. My mother belonged to Hashomer Hatzair

I belonged to Habonim youth all my life and now very much belong , involved in and support The Democratic Party.

[Israeli]

40. What no link ????

....and not one answer to two direct questions .

HaNoar HaOved VeHaLomed.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaNoar_HaOved_VeHaLomed

...a sister movement of Habonim Dror, the Labor Zionist movement.

Along with Hashomer Hatzair of Israel, Histadrut HaNoar HaOved VeHaLomed are member of the International Falcon Movement – Socialist Education International.

A movement graduate whose ambition is to live in the state of Israel and takes part in its defense and building.
A movement graduate whose ambition is to live in a Kibbutz or in any other socialist and cooperative way of living.

Pull the other one KD ...it has bells on it .

What about your plan of moving here when you have saved up enough to buy an apartment in Tel Aviv ...that few of us can afford ...and when you are old enough to avoid enlistment ??

[King_David]

42. My plan to avoid enlistment? Link ?

But I have many many years to go before that would happen.





Very strange that an "Israeli living on a kibbutz" would need Wikepedia to "explain" these things.

[Israeli]

43. Strange that I need to explain ....

...to someone that claims to have " belonged to Habonim youth all my life " what belonging to
Habonim means ??????????

A movement graduate whose ambition is to live in the state of Israel and takes part in its defense and building.
A movement graduate whose ambition is to live in a Kibbutz or in any other socialist and cooperative way of living.

You dont have " many many years to go before that would happen " KD ....not that I believe for one moment that you have any intention of doing so .

[King_David]

44. You don't need explain to me what Habonim is I was a member for many years

Strange you need Wiki though.

Really really moozaar

[Israeli]

45. Bit of advice ...

....before you enlist .....do try and study up on your Hebrew ...

" Really really moozaar "

'strange' is moo-ZAHR.....or מוזר

[King_David]

46. Hebrew has "set spelling " when written in English?

Rubbish !

Hannukah / Chanukah

Look how Yom Haatzmaut is spelled here and compare it to the OP :


http://www.reformjudaism.org/jewish-holidays/yom-hazikaron-yom-haatzmaut

You sure you live in Israel ?

You think Hebrew words have correct and incorrect spelling in English?

However the way you spelled it is one of the ways it's written phonetically at the top of the list when googled.

You googled it.



LOL

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. I would welcome that. It would be even handed of course.