They want to outlaw Palestine solidarity

[TexasTowelie]

Lawmakers of both parties are proving that they will stop at nothing--even blatantly unconstitutional bills--to smear the BDS campaign against Israel, writes Eric Ruder.

PRO-ISRAEL ORGANIZATIONS are pushing for legislation in Illinois and at the federal level to punish institutions and corporations that honor the Palestinian call for boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) on behalf of the internationally recognized legal rights of Palestinians.

Illinois State Bill 1761, which compels state entities such as pension funds to divest from any company that refuses to do business with Israel, passed the Illinois Senate and House without a single "no" vote in either chamber, and now heads to Republican Gov. Bruce Rauner, who has pledged to sign the bill.

Illinois legislators are playing with fire with this legislation. Boycotts are a constitutionally protected form of speech and association--a point carefully argued in another context in this open letter by leading pro-Palestine legal voices. Not only that, but Illinois should not be shielding Israel from boycotts to protest Israeli human rights abuses and settlements, and it should not be punishing companies that have decided to adopt an ethical posture toward Israel.

At the federal level, Rep. Peter Roskam (R-Illinois) and Sens. Rob Portman (R-Ohio) and Ben Cardin (D-Maryland) succeeded in amending fast-track trade legislation pending in congressional committees to add similar punitive measures against boycotts of Israel. According to the American Jewish Committee, which supports the amendments, the revision to the trade promotion authority legislation sought by the Obama administration establishes:

a principal trade negotiating objective of the United States to discourage trading partners from taking actions that could prejudice or discourage commercial activity between the U.S. and Israel, to seek the elimination of state-sponsored foreign boycotts against Israel, and to end compliance with the Arab League Boycott of Israel.

Read more: http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/19/they-want-to-outlaw-palestine-solidarity

[aranthus]

1. Good.

Our government should stand against the hate that is BDS.

[Scootaloo]

7. The only hate in the picture is Zionism.

As you show us every day when you support, cheer, and help perpetuate the murder and oppression of Arabs, while getting your pickle in a twist over the very idea that someone might have a problem with you doing that, and call for a boycott in response.

[aranthus]

8. Nothing you have written in your post is true. n/t

[Scootaloo]

13. Everything in it is true, Aranthus.

You're labeling a boycott movement "hate" - which is pure nonsense, but is clear proof the idea of it pisses you off.

It pisses you off because, as your posts make abundantly and frequently clear, you cannot tolerate criticism of Israel at any level. Certainly not active opposition! Why is this? Well because as an ardent Zionist you by default - and by conscious choose - cheer, support, and defend the brutality inflicted upon the Palestinian people. Whatever is done to them by Israel, you will always justify it as their own fault. Israel is eternally blameless, and so criticism and opposition you label "hate."

Sort of like those fundy christians who call pro-LGBT activists "haters" because they read support for LGBT rights as "hatred of christianity."

[King_David]

18. Agree , absolutely nothing. nt

[leveymg]

53. Your essential equation of boycotts of apartheid regimes as pure hate is utterly untrue.

In your version of things, Nelson Mandela must be added to your Big Book of Haters. Here's what he says on the subject:

https://sites.google.com/site/boycottapartheidisrael/mandela-nelson
1. Nelson Mandela in an address at the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, Dec. 4, 1997: “The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians”. [1].

2. Nelson Mandela speech on International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinians (excerpt) : "The temptation in our situation is to speak in muffled tones about an issue such as the right of the people of Palestine to a state of their own. We can easily be enticed to read reconciliation and fairness as meaning parity between justice and injustice. Having achieved our own freedom, we can fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others faces. Yet we would be less than human if we did so.

It behooves all South Africans, themselves erstwhile beneficiaries of generous international support, to stand up and be counted among those contributing actively to the cause of freedom and justice.

Even during the days of negotiations, our own experience taught us that the pursuit of human fraternity and equality -- irrespective of race or religion -- should stand at the centre of our peaceful endeavours. The choice is not between freedom and justice, on the one hand, and their opposite, on the other. Peace and prosperity; tranquility and security are only possible if these are enjoyed by all without discrimination.

It is in this spirit that I have come to join you today to add our own voice to the universal call for Palestinian self-determination and statehood." [2].

3. Nelson Mandela, anti-apartheid campaigner, former South African president and Nobel Peace Laureate (2001): “Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians contrary to the rules of international law and waged war against a civilian population, in particular children.” [3].


[1]. Nelson Mandela quoted in “Nelson Mandela quotes: A collection of memorable words from former South African president”, CBS News, 5 December 2013: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nelson-mandela-quotes-a-collection-of-memorable-words-from-former-south-african-president/ .

[2]. Edward. C. Corrigan, “Israel and apartheid: a fair comparison?”, rabble.ca, 2 March 2010: http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/03/israel-and-apartheid-fair-comparison .

[3].Nelson Mandela quoted in “Voices against Israel’s apartheid system”, Green Left Weekly, 10 April 2011: http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/47300 .

[aranthus]

58. BDS is about replacing the Jewish state with an Arab state.

The founders of BDS have said that an essential element of their movement is the enforcement of right of return which they are honest enough to admit means the end of the Jewish state. That is antisemitism per se. Even Mandela is only speaking of a separate Palestinian state. He doesn't speak for the Palestinians who have made their intentions and their movement clear.

[oberliner]

60. Mandela quote is fake

This "quote" from your last link is fake:

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians contrary to the rules of international law and waged war against a civilian population, in particular children. — Anti-apartheid campaigner and former South African president Nelson Mandela, 2001

https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/47300

It actually comes from a satirical post by Arjan El Fassed writing a made up memo from Mandela to Tom Friedman.

See below:

Editor’s note, 28 June 2013: This article was written by Arjan El Fassed in 2001 in the satirical style then being employed by Thomas Friedman, of writing mock letters from one world leader to another. Although it carries El Fassed’s byline, it has been repeatedly mistaken for an actual letter from Mandela. It is not. It is a piece of satire and has never been presented by EI as anything other than satire. El Fassed has written this history of the piece and how it subsequently was mistaken for a real letter, on his personal blog.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/mandelas-first-memo-thomas-friedman/4826

Edit to Add: Maybe you can write to Green Left Weekly and let them know so they can correct their error and remove the fake quote.

[leveymg]

61. It's always a pleasure to debunk the debunkers. Here's the speech posted at the ANC website. Fake?

http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3384

Address by President Nelson Mandela at the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People

4 December 1997, Pretoria

Mr. Chairman;
Mr. Suleyman al-Najab,
Special Emissary of President Yasser Arafat;
Members of the diplomatic corps;
Distinguished Guests,

We have assembled once again as South Africans, our Palestinian guests and as humanists to express our solidarity with the people of Palestine.

I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the organisers of the event, particularly the United Nations Information Centre and the UNISA Centre for Arabic and Islamic Studies for this magnificent act of compassion, to keep the flames of solidarity, justice and freedom burning.

The temptation in our situation is to speak in muffled tones about an issue such as the right of the people of Palestine to a state of their own. We can easily be enticed to read reconciliation and fairness as meaning parity between justice and injustice. Having achieved our own freedom, we can fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others faces.

Yet we would be less than human if we did so.

It behoves all South Africans, themselves erstwhile beneficiaries of generous international support, to stand up and be counted among those contributing actively to the cause of freedom and justice.

Even during the days of negotiations, our own experience taught us that the pursuit of human fraternity and equality - irrespective of race or religion - should stand at the centre of our peaceful endeavours. The choice is not between freedom and justice, on the one hand, and their opposite, on the other. Peace and prosperity; tranquility and security are only possible if these are enjoyed by all without discrimination.

It is in this spirit that I have come to join you today to add our own voice to the universal call for Palestinian self-determination and statehood.

We would be beneath our own reason for existence as government and as a nation, if the resolution of the problems of the Middle East did not feature prominently on our agenda.

When in 1977, the United Nations passed the resolution inaugurating the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people, it was asserting the recognition that injustice and gross human rights violations were being perpetrated in Palestine. In the same period, the UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system.

But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians; without the resolution of conflicts in East Timor, the Sudan and other parts of the world.

We are proud as a government, and as the overwhelming majority of South Africans to be part of an international consensus taking root that the time has come to resolve the problems of Palestine.

Indeed, all of us marvelled at the progress made a few years ago, with the adoption of the Oslo Agreements. Leaders of vision, who saw problems not merely from the point of view of their own narrow constituency, had at least found a workable approach towards friendship and peaceful co-existence in the Middle East.

I wish to take this opportunity to pay tribute to these Palestinian and Israeli leaders. In particular, we pay homage to the memory of Yitshak Rabin who paid the supreme sacrifice in pursuit of peace.

We are proud as humanists, that the international consensus on the need for the implementation of the Oslo Agreements is finding expression in the efforts of the multitude of Israeli and Palestinian citizens of goodwill who are marching together, campaigning together, for an end to prevarication. These soldiers of peace are indeed sending a message to us all, that the day is not far off, when Palestinian and Jewish children will enjoy the gay abandon of children of God in a peaceful and prosperous region.

These soldiers of peace recognise that the world we live in is rising above the trappings of religious and racial hatred and conflict. They recognise that the spurning of agreements reached in good faith and the forceful occupation of land can only fan the flames of conflict. They know from their own experience that, it is in a situation such as this, that extremists on all sides thrive, fed by the blood lust of centuries gone by.

These Palestinian and Israeli campaigners for peace know that security for any nation is not abstract; neither is it exclusive. It depends on the security of others; it depends on mutual respect and trust. Indeed, these soldiers of peace know that their destiny is bound together, and that none can be at peace while others wallow in poverty and insecurity.

Thus, in extending our hands across the miles to the people of Palestine, we do so in the full knowledge that we are part of a humanity that is at one, that the time has come for progress in the implementation of agreements. The majority of the world community; the majority of the people of the Middle East; the majority of Israelis and Palestinians are suing for peace.

But we know, Mr. Chairman, that all of us need to do much much more to ensure that this noble ideal is realised.

As early as February 1995, our government formalised its relations with the State of Palestine when we established full diplomatic relations. We are proud of the modest technical assistance that our government is offering Palestine in such areas as Disaster Management, women`s empowerment and assistance to handicapped children. But the various discussions with our counterparts in Palestine are an indication that we can do more.

We need to do more as government, as the ANC and other parties, as South Africans of all religious and political persuasions to spur on the peace process. All of us should be as vocal in condemning violence and the violation of human rights in this part of the world as we do with regard to other areas. We need to send a strong message to all concerned that an attempt by anyone to isolate partners in negotiations from their own mass base; and attempt to co-opt tes is bound to hurt the peace process as a whole.

We must make our voices heard calling for stronger action by world bodies as well as those states that have the power, to act with the same enthusiasm in dealing with this deadlock as they do on other problems in the Middle East.

Yes, all of us need to do more in supporting the struggle of the people of Palestine for self-determination; in supporting the quest for peace, security and friendship in this region.

But at least we can draw comfort from the fact that, our meeting today is yet another small expression of our empathy.

We hope that, by this humble act, we are strengthening the voice of peace and friendship in Israel and Palestine; so that, as we enter the new millennium, we shall all have taken a giant stride towards a world in which our humanity will be the hallmark of our relations across colour, religious and other divides.

I thank you.

[leveymg]

62. Another quote posted at the CBSNews.com website - fake?

“Nelson Mandela quotes: A collection of memorable words from former South African president”, CBS News, 5 December 2013: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nelson-mandela-quotes-a-collection-of-memorable-words-from-former-south-african-president/

The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.

--Address at the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, Dec. 4, 1997

[oberliner]

63. The fake Mandela quote is the one I identified for you

From the Green Left Weekly site that you posted. It presents a "quote" from Mandela that was not actually said by Mandela. It was part of an op-ed by Arjan El Fassed where he crafted an imaginary memo as a piece of satire.

To reiterate the note from Electronic Intifada:

This article was written by Arjan El Fassed in 2001 in the satirical style then being employed by Thomas Friedman, of writing mock letters from one world leader to another. Although it carries El Fassed’s byline, it has been repeatedly mistaken for an actual letter from Mandela. It is not.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/mandelas-first-memo-thomas-friedman/4826

With respect to Mandela's address in 1997 that you posted in full above (and a few sentences here), he makes clear his support for the Oslo Agreement and pays tribute to former Israeli leader, Yitzhak Rabin for his pursuit of a peace agreement.

Mandela was deeply supportive of the Palestinian struggle for independence, but never deviated from his view that this could only be attained through all parties recognizing Israel’s legitimate right to exist within secure borders.

To that end, here is an excerpt from another of Mandela's speeches:

"As a movement we recognise the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism just as we recognise the legitimacy of Zionism as Jewish nationalism. We insist on the right of the state of Israel to exist within secure borders but with equal vigour support the Palestinian right to national self-determination."

I hope you agree with those sentiments.

[leveymg]

65. There's one para in there that isn't in the original. The rest in real.Thanks for pointing that out.

Last edited Tue May 26, 2015, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Yes, I do, along with Nelson Mandela, support the Two State solution, as I don't see any realistic alternative.

[oberliner]

66. No - the entire quote is fictional

It was a complete invention from top to bottom. Nothing in it is real.

Have you not read the link I have provided for you several times?

http://electronicintifada.net/content/mandelas-first-memo-thomas-friedman/4826

Although it carries El Fassed’s byline, it has been repeatedly mistaken for an actual letter from Mandela. It is not. It is a piece of satire and has never been presented by EI as anything other than satire.

[leveymg]

67. Are you claiming the entire Mandela speech posted verbatim at the ANC website is a fake?

Click on http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3384 , and take another look. Do you claim the website is fake, too? Or, perhaps, you're saying the ANC is an invention of the Electronic Intifada?

Tell us exactly what you think is fake.

[oberliner]

68. The quote from Green Left Weekly

You posted a link to Green Left Weekly with this quote included:

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians contrary to the rules of international law and waged war against a civilian population, in particular children. — Anti-apartheid campaigner and former South African president Nelson Mandela, 2001

https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/47300

That quote is fake. It comes from a satirical article by Arjan El Fassed:

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/mandelas-first-memo-thomas-friedman/4826

I am not sure why you are misunderstanding this.

[leveymg]

69. Glad you clarified that. Your original "fake" remark made it seem the entire set of Mandela quotes

are fake, which they aren't. Aside from the three suspect sentences quoted in Green Left Weekly, the rest of Mandela's statements are irrefutably genuine, and Mandela has clearly stated that, in his view, the Israelis are practicing a form of apartheid:

We would be beneath our own reason for existence as government and as a nation, if the resolution of the problems of the Middle East did not feature prominently on our agenda.

When in 1977, the United Nations passed the resolution inaugurating the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people, it was asserting the recognition that injustice and gross human rights violations were being perpetrated in Palestine. In the same period, the UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system.

But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians; without the resolution of conflicts in East Timor, the Sudan and other parts of the world. (as quoted on the ANC website)

Indeed, Israel and the apartheid South Africa had close military and economic ties while Mandela was a political prisoner. In addition, Israel was responsible for proliferation of nuclear weapons and technology to the South African regime while it was a practicing apartheid state.

Is there a reason why you think Nelson Mandela is misguided in his condemnation of Israel for its own apartheid policies against the Palestinians?

[oberliner]

70. OK good - sorry about the misunderstanding

To your other point, you make this claim:

"Mandela has clearly stated that, in his view, the Israelis are practicing a form of apartheid"

I would respectfully say that Mandela has not done this.

He was certainly critical of Israeli policies but he did not "clearly state that Israelis are practicing a form of apartheid" in any of the quotes you've provided or any that I've found.

He has spoken in support of those Israelis and Palestinians who promoted the two-state solution (which I also support).

[aranthus]

2. And by the way.

Socialist Worker? Way to marginalize yourself.

[Israeli]

5. How so aranthus ?

You have a problem with Socialism ?

Just asking as someone who was born into the HaShomer HaTzair movement .

ref : https://www.hashomer-hatzair.org/pages/english.aspx

[aranthus]

9. Have you read Socialist Worker?

I was referring to the publication cited, not the entire ideology. I do have issues with Socialism in general that I don't have time to discuss right now. But Socialist Worker is a radical Marxist rag (to be charitable). On a site that is nominally a Democratic Party support group, that's marginal.

[guillaumeb]

10. The article referenced in the post also appeared in the Chicago Tribune.

A right wing newspaper.

So you reject an article and the facts stated in it because you take issue with the politics of the publication? An interesting approach.

The sponsors of the legislation are basically acting more as representatives for Israel than as representatives from their districts in Illinois. If they were more concerned about Israeli land theft and genocide there would be no need for sanctions.

[aranthus]

12. Not relevant to any of my posts.

My comments on Socialist Worker were an aside. It doesn't matter which publication the article was in, though it's interesting that the original poster cited to the Socialist Worker rather than the Chicago Tribune. And I did not reject the facts in the article. I applauded them. I'm glad various legislatures are acting against BDS because at its heart it is anti-Semitic and fraudulent. Your ranting drivel about land theft and genocide notwithstanding, BDS is at its core about replacing the one Jewish state in the world with another Arab state. That's antisemitic per se, and pretty heinous even if it isn't antisemitic.

[guillaumeb]

14. In your world anti-Semitic means

any criticism of the Israeli government? When did the two become equivalent?

Also interesting that you treat Israeli land theft and genocide as irrelevant.

Is it necessary to consider the Palestinians as subhuman in order to dismiss what the Israeli government is doing to them all in the name of "Greater Israel"?

[King_David]

19. No I think you should re-read Aranthus' posts because he said nothing of the sort that you have

written there.

[aranthus]

22. The problem that everyone should have with your post is this.

I have been posting on this site for long enough that it should be obvious to anyone with an unbiased mind that I don't believe the things you claim I do. I have always been very careful to state that what is antisemitic is the denial of the right of existence of a Jewish state. Nowhere have I EVER claimed that any criticism of the Israeli government was antisemitism. I certainly did not do so in the posts in this thread. This isn't even a close call. Your charge against me is so obviously false that one has to draw conclusions from the mere fact that you made it. Add to that that this isn't anything new (from your side) The false charge that pro-Israelis equate anti-Israel government with antisemitism is one that is frequently made either by antisemites, by those who want to smear the pro-Israel side, or by those who simply don't have anything to say in response to valid critique of their position. So re-read my posts and let us all know if you want to change anything in your post 14. By your answer we will know you.

[guillaumeb]

23. Here was my post/response in its entirety:

"In your world anti-Semitic means

any criticism of the Israeli government? When did the two become equivalent?

Also interesting that you treat Israeli land theft and genocide as irrelevant.

Is it necessary to consider the Palestinians as subhuman in order to dismiss what the Israeli government is doing to them all in the name of "Greater Israel"?



Notice that the first sentence is a QUESTION. As was the second. I did not state that you said it. I asked for a qualification.

And I have said before that SOME here SEEM to equate ANY and ALL criticism of the actions of the Israeli state as "proof" of anti-Semitic motivation.

And my reply about land theft and genocide was a response to the dismissive nature of your initial response.

So no, I will leave the reply as it stands.

[aranthus]

32. Here's the reality.

You asked a leading question along with a follow up that assumed the answer you wanted to the first question. In doing so you raised a complete non-issue. You made up a position that I don't have (and that hardly any pro-Israelis have), and you asked questions about it. You don't get to duck making the accusation just because you framed it as a question.

[guillaumeb]

34. We have a clash of realities here.

When you stated:
" You made up a position that I don't have (and that hardly any pro-Israelis have), and you asked questions about it."

Unfortunately, I have read more than a few posts here that implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) equate any criticism of the Israeli government as prima facie proof of anti-Semitic intent.

So the question that you call a leading question is one that in my mind needs to be asked.

[aranthus]

36. What is the evidence of your reality re me?

Is there a prior post of mine that you think lumps me in to this group? And as far as anyone else, can you point to a specific post so that I can see what you are talking about?

[guillaumeb]

43. My previous post explained the "why" of my question.

I did not accuse you. I could point to specific posts, but I prefer not to do so. I do not wish to single out anyone specifically.

[aranthus]

48. There are some problems with that.

First, you asked a leading question that was really an accusation. King David saw it as well, which is why he posted about it. As for not wanting to point to specific posts, then I have to assume that there aren't any. Certainly not any that apply to me. Second, if you don't point to specifics then I can't evaluate your claim that the post linked criticizing the Israeli government (as opposed to the Jewish state) with antisemitism. Finally, anyone who actually does argue that criticizing Netanyahu is antisemitic deserves to be called on it.

[guillaumeb]

49. I asked a specific question. You may interpret it as leading.

As to specific posts equating opposition to the Israeli government with anti-Semitism, I have seen them on the I/P site. They can be found if you search.

And I never accused you, as I have mentioned previously.

[aranthus]

51. Yeah. It's leading.

We're done.

[shaayecanaan]

26. zionism was about replacing palestine with israel

either in whole or in part. By your own logic, it is at least as racist as BDS.

[aranthus]

27. Not the same.

First, there is an actual state called Israel. Palestine was never a state. Second, that "in part" is a huge difference. It's the difference between allowing the other side their own self determination and not. Third, before the British created Jordan, the part of Palestine east of the river could have been the Palestinian state (assuming that the Palestinians wanted independence, which is questionable).

[shaayecanaan]

29. it was certainly a state

It issued passports to its citizens, who were called citizens of the state of palestine. They looked like this:-



Of course, it was not an independent state, but a British dependency, but it was no different from Canada or Australia as far as that went. Do you think that Jews were entitled to seize the lands of Canada and Australia as well?

[aranthus]

31. Did you happen to notice the words at the top?

Last edited Thu May 21, 2015, 12:00 PM - Edit history (1)

"BRITISH PASSPORT" A "state" is an independent political entity. If someone else issues your passports, you're not a state.

[shaayecanaan]

33. then Australia is not a state

because the exact same words appeared on Australian passports until the early seventies, when Australian nationals no longer had British subject status:-



So I put my question to you again:- do you think that Jews are entitled to steal the lands of Canada and Australia?

[aranthus]

37. It certainly is now.

Palestine was not only always subject to the British crown, it was never an independent state. It's government was always subject to Britain or to the Ottomans before that. This one isn't even close.

[shaayecanaan]

38. neither was australia

Pursuant to section 59 of the Australian constitution, the queen of england may veto any legislation passed by the Australian parliament within a year of its passage, and the queen is also responsible for the appointment of ministers at both state and federal level, including the prime minister. Of course her role is ceremonial, and bound by convention, as it is in Britain. However until Australia becomes a republic it is technically not an independent state.

In any event, australia was certainly not independent at the time that the naqba occurred. So I put the question to you a third time: would Jews be entitled to steal the lands of Canada and Australia, given that neither of them were independent states? Its a very simple question.

[aranthus]

50. If Canada or Australia were not sovereign and if Jews had a homeland there then yes.

Of course none of those factors actually existed as they did in Palestine. Canada and Australia were sovereigns. Even if they weren't they were then sovereign territory of Britain. Britain was sovereign in Palestine and could allow the Jews in (which it did). It could then abdicate sovereignty (which it did), so that what ever national communities existed in the territory could create their own states. What you seem to reject is that the Jews were an independent nationality that had historical claims to Palestine and had as much right to create a state there as anyone. They didn't steal anything.

[shaayecanaan]

52. Really?

So any group of people claiming a "homeland" in a British or French dependency (such as Tahiti, Gibraltar, New Caledonia etc) can simply turn up whenever the colonial power leaves and take as much as they want? The claims of indigenous people themselves mean nothing?

They didn't steal anything.

They stole plenty. About 70% of Israel and the Palestinian territories, give or take, was simply stolen from Arab title holders pursuant to the Absentee property laws:-

The Custodian of Absentee Property does not choose to discuss politics. But when asked how much of the land of the state of Israel might potentially have two claimants — an Arab and a Jew holding respectively a British Mandate and an Israeli deed to the same property — Mr. Manor [the Custodian in 1980] believes that 'about 70 percent' might fall into that category (Robert Fisk, 'The Land of Palestine, Part Eight: The Custodian of Absentee Property', The Times, December 24, 1980, quoted in his book Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_land_and_property_laws#The_.27Absentees_Property_Law.27

Britain was sovereign in Palestine and could allow the Jews in (which it did).

And consumers have a perfectly valid right to boycott the products of a particular state, which they do frequently. Citizens of a state are perfectly entitled to lobby that state to divest or sanction another country. Nothing illegal there.

So to return to my original point, if BDS is racist (even if its intention was to replace Israel with Palestine, which I doubt) then Zionism (which sought to and did replace Palestine with Israel) is racist as well.

[grossproffit]

56. Next, they'll post that mandate coin.

I can't stomach this forum much which is why I rarely visit.

Aranthus, you give me hope. Thank you!

[Scootaloo]

16. It's fascinating to watch...

Every time you and your buddies fail an argument, you try to make a "but democrats!" smokescreen.

[Israeli]

17. No ...

.....and sure you were aranthus

But Socialist Worker is a radical Marxist rag .......

My grandparents were radical Marxists aranthus.....they helped build the kibbutz I still live on .

Marginal for America maybe .....but this is the Israel/Palestine (Group) and not all of us are Americans aranthus.

[King_David]

20. What do you think about radical Marxists in 2015 in any country?

[guillaumeb]

21. If I may respond to your question King David:

What do you think about end stage capitalism in the US?

Do you feel that the US is going in the right direction when money rules and votes do not matter?

Do you feel that the 1% getting richer while the bottom 90% face wage stagnation or outright wage loss is a good thing?

Do you feel that the endless wars for the US empire are a good thing?

Do you feel that the US ranking number 1 of all the OCDE countries in social inequality is a good thing?

Capitalism has failed in every country where it has been practiced, except as a means to make the rich even richer at the expense of all others.

[King_David]

24. We were talking about radical Marxism

Has that been an unbridled success in your opinion?

[guillaumeb]

25. I think that Karl Marx offered much valuable political analysis.

If you are asking if I feel that Russian or Chinese style state socialism was a success the answer is no, I do not.

Now, what is your response to my questions about end stage capitalism, or predatory capitalism, if you prefer?

[Ken Burch]

72. We haven't had "radical Marxism". We've had "Marxism-Leninism"(Stalinism-Maoism)

That "ideology" ended up having little to do with Marx's writings and almost no radicalism to it(since radicalism is meant to be quick steps taken to create a humane and just world, not about putting "the leading role of the party" above the project of actually inventing revolutionary democracy(as the early Bolshevik Revolution did try to do, prior to 1921 or so when it degenerated into "War Communism&quot .

Marx isn't the enemy. The problem was Lenin, Stalin, and the hacks who obeyed them.
And the revolution of 1917, for the first couple of years, produced the only time in Russian history in which life ever got better for Russian Jews(it would never have improved for them under Kerensky, who cared only about staying in World War I and licking the boots of the antisemitic aristocrats).

[Israeli]

39. Thanks for responding to him guillaumeb....

I never will .

[King_David]

41. No need to

I craft my brilliant posts so that no reply necessary- it's more convenient for all.

Thanks for reading them though.

[guillaumeb]

44. Are you more brilliant than humble,

or more humble than brilliant?

Plus you have not yet responded to my question about capitalism. I await your response.

[King_David]

46. Maybe post that question in the right forum

This is IP.

Suffice to say I'm a Democratic Party leftish supporter in the vein of our President Obama and not the Conservative type government that you have there in Canada.

[guillaumeb]

47. Your current score is one evasion and one avoidance. eom

[King_David]

54. With a bit of luck Canada next year will have a new Prime Minister

Justin is very hot and sexy too.

[aranthus]

28. So?

I don't see how it matters that your grandparents built a kibbutz. Good for them, but so what? According to the teaching of the ideology you claim they were part of, they had no right to be there in the first place. How many Knesset seats did the Communist Party win in the last election? Finally, this is an American Democratic Party web site, so marginal is what's marginal in the US.

[Israeli]

40. I am not " claiming " anything aranthus.....

...its a fact ...also I am not the one that is lying to this group .

BTW I am not a Communist I am a Socialist ....a post zionist socialist .

[aranthus]

42. That's fine, but it doesn't change my point.

Who said anything about lying? I wrote claim because neither of us was your grandparents. I can't read their minds and know exactly what they believed or if they changed in any way. I did not mean to imply that you were not telling the truth and I apologize if it read that way. And if you're going to make that charge against me, don't you think you should be explicit about it and cite some evidence?

Also, I didn't say that you were a Communist.

In any event, none of that changes or challenges my point. In the US Socialist Worker is a pretty marginal publication.

[guillaumeb]

45. It may be a marginal publication,

but the ideas and analysis expressed in the articles are gaining acceptance all the time.

[Israeli]

57. No apology necessary ...

....and it was not a charge against you ....and no I dont think I need to be " explicit about it and cite some evidence " ....anyone on here on a regular basis and with more than two gray cells knows exactly who I was referring to.

[King_David]

30. I'm proud of your Zionist Grandparents...

Real Halutzim....

Kol Hakavod

they helped build the kibbutz I still live on .

Zionist Pioneers....

[Ken Burch]

59. Those Zionist grandparents would hate the occupation and everything Netanyahu does.

There is nothing in the current situation in Israel that the country's humane, social democratic founders would approve of.

[oberliner]

64. Israel's founders were humane social democrats?

I wonder if there is consensus here on that score.

[Ken Burch]

71. They weren't saints, but they were far more decent than anyohe in current Israeli politics.

Other than those who are slandered as "far left&quot as if admitting that Palestinians have been persecuted is the same thing as joining the Khmer Rouge or something).

And it goes without saying that none of them would defend keeping the IDF in the West Bank for going on forty-eight years.

I'm pretty sure that, in hindsight, most of them would admit Plan Dalet was a mistake.

Ben-Gurion ALWAYS opposed the idea of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and the state waited until after he was dead to start that insane and totally unjustifiable project.

[guillaumeb]

11. Thank you for the very interesting link Israeli.

From the link:

The three leading principles of the Movement have always been: "Towards Zionism, Socialism and Peace among nations". These are the values that have been imbued into educating towards Zionism, social justice, peace, equality and democracy. Our motto is: " Be strong and brave!" This is taken from the Book of Deuteronomy Book 31 and tells of Moses giving over his leadership to Joshua so that he should take the Jewish people into the land of Israel. This motto represents the connection of the Shomer Hatza'ir Movement to the Jewish people, its heritage and the leadership and responsibility expected of its members.

Plus there have been many prominent Jews who were Socialists.

[Scootaloo]

15. Because Aranthus says so!

OBEY!

[shenmue]

3. They couldn't possibly 'outlaw Palestine solidarity'

whatever that is.

[Little Tich]

4. This only a victory for the one-staters.

The goal of the bill is to blur the distinction between Israel and the settlements. The only thing that prevents Israel from being an apartheid state already, is the existence of this distinction.

I perceive that this may be the future; more bills that legitimize the settlements will be passed. Eventually, there won't be any American politicians left who support the two-state solution.

Then what?

[Israeli]

6. Little Tich is right ....

as in ... " The goal of the bill is to blur the distinction between Israel and the settlements. The only thing that prevents Israel from being an apartheid state already, is the existence of this distinction. "

They are not " PRO-ISRAEL ORGANIZATIONS " TexasTowelie....they are pro-status quo and pro-occupation organizations ....in other words ...they are anti a Two State Solution and anti anything Palestinian .