Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPhotos: With Gaza under attack, children pay the price
As I write now, I am back in my home. While I was editing pictures, I could hear the frightening sound of the bombs. The street emptied of cars, and there is almost no light. I moved far away from the window, which can get easily smashed by some of the explosions from nearby.In Al Shifa Hospital, there was total chaos, with so many injured people constantly coming in. When I reached the section where they treated burn injuries, some women collapsed in grief. They had just found out that one-year-old Omar Jihad Masharawi had just died of his wounds. One of the women was his mother.
I had arrived with other photographers. I cannot describe in words what I saw, nor can I post the grim pictures of a burned baby. It is just too horrific.
Later, the father carried Omar to the morgue, sobbing. I went home. I feel nervous, with news coming in about more attacks, more injured. There is nowhere to escape in Gaza.
Israel is attacking a civilian population that has committed no crimes other than being Palestinian. Dont talk to me about rockets. Palestinians have been dispossessed of most of their lands since 1948. The occupation started in 1967. The rockets started in 2001.
MORE...
http://972mag.com/photos-with-gaza-under-attack-children-pay-the-price/59860/
intaglio
(8,170 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)who want this either ignored (of course) claim it's just an oops on IDF's part (unimportant collateral damage) or would otherwise want to make this somehow palatable
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)by screaming about how bad the Palestinians are is this.
Palestinians have been dispossessed of most of their lands since 1948. The occupation started in 1967. The rockets started in 2001.
I don't want to see Palestinian rockets killing Israelis, or being built for that matter, or the IDF indiscriminately killing Palestinians when they get the itch.
If any nation subjugates a people, whether it is another group or their own citizens, to the point that these same people feel they have to other choice then to rebel then the UN should attempt have final jurisdiction over these same people: providing humanitarian and political support if necessary. Understandably, that is not always possible considering the hostility of the host country, but once that country becomes so insensitive or inured to the suffering or objections of one group over the other needs of the other then they have lost the right to administer to that group of people.
Gaza has become a ghetto. Its inhabitants prisoners. This is clear to any person or persons that have the ability to see and reason beyond the myopic lens of colonialism.
shira
(30,109 posts)They have choices.
Gaza is hardly the only nation on the planet that's occupied, or it's people stateless. The question you have to ask yourself is why is this type of 'resistance' happening only WRT the Arab/Israel conflict, and no other?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Is that what you say?
shira
(30,109 posts)They could have chosen to make Gaza into a paradise after the 2005 withdrawal.
They chose poorly.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Are we supposed to think those children have choices? Are responsible?
Have a nice day.
shira
(30,109 posts)And the more you try equating Israel's defensive countermeasures to Hamas' intent to mass murder, the more you sanitize their vile actions.
FWIW, Israeli babies, children, and women do not have it coming either. WTF is Israel supposed to do? Lie back and enjoy hundreds of rockets?
Which other country on this planet would take that and not do what Israel is doing, or worse?
Name one.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Is it actually solving the issue?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)where fisherman aren't allowed to fish more than three miles offshore(thus making actual catching of fish impossible)and where it's effectively impossible to come and go as you please.
There was no chance to make anything better for anyone in Gaza under those conditions. You can ONLY improve your country when it is totally free of outside interference.
shira
(30,109 posts)...renounce terror, trade with Israel, collaborate on projects, etc.
Nothing.
It's not that it's impossible. They never even tried and you're here making excuses for them.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)If any nation subjugates a people, whether it is another group or their own citizens, to the point that these same people feel they have to other choice then to rebel then the UN should attempt have final jurisdiction over these same people: providing humanitarian and political support if necessary. Understandably, that is not always possible considering the hostility of the host country, but once that country becomes so insensitive or inured to the suffering or objections of one group over the other needs of the other then they have lost the right to administer to that group of people.
It has become increasingly apparent that you don't read what other people post so, like bemildred, all I have to say to you is have a nice day.
shira
(30,109 posts)You were posting about people who feel they have no other choice than to fire rockets at Israel. My response was based on that nonsense.
Israeli subjugation is bullshit considering they've offered Palestinians their own state several times. Desperate people would have, at the very least, either taken the offer or they would have made a reasonable counter-offer. The desperate victims you champion felt they needed to start an Intifada in response to Israel's offer.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)fight for their freedom, only in Palestine? '
That is utter nonsense. When someone's land is stolen they will fight for centuries to get it back. See Ireland, for 8 hundred years they refused to accept the occupation of their land. The British tried to paint Irish heroes as 'terrorists' also. But finally, after 800 years, they prevailed and those 'terrorists' many of them executed, are now heroes.
Until Israel shows some indication that they are interested in peace and not the occupation of land that does not belong to them, there will be resistance. At the very least they should accept that.
And today's 'terrorists' will be Palestinian heroes in the future when eventually they have their freedom. History will write the narrative on who is and who is not a terrorist.
aquart
(69,014 posts)You think Gaza is viable as a nation? How would that work?
Your freedom is the massacre of MILLIONS OF ISRAELIS. Oh wait. You expect them to self-deport.
To where?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)What should be done with Palestinians in your opinion? You seem to be saying there is no two state solution? Is that Israel's position?
shira
(30,109 posts)People don't fight for freedom vowing to obliterate the other country and mass murder its civilians. Suicide bombs? Rockets into the other's territory? Pallywood campaign to demonize?
That's not happening elsewhere.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)Thousands of people, many of them civilians, killed by the conflict, and yet more through the famine and disease that are indirect results of the conflict. MUCH worse than anything that's happened on either side of the I/P conflict.
'Pallywood campaign to demonize?' - ALL groups in any violent conflict demonize the others, and use propaganda against them. As has been said, 'The first casualty of war is truth.'
You are exceptionalizing the Palestinians in exactly the same way that some other people and groups exceptionalize the Israelis.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:49 AM - Edit history (1)
...do not vow to obliterate the other nation and its people. This is not what freedom fighters who have been offered a state (many times) do. Desperate stateless people do not resort to suicide attacks and rockets against a nation willing to give them what they're asking for (land on pre-1967 WB/Gaza territory).
Also, this support for Hamas is unique. Let's be honest here and call support for Hamas for what it is. The UN supports them, so do NGO's, and much of the media. All are in on, or part of, Pallywood productions to demonize Jews. They believe rockets are legitimate resistance. That Israel really has no right to defend. That's why we see so little condemnation from the UN, NGO's, media, flotillistas, etc...of Hamas' use of women and children as shields, using children as militants, or their rocketry. It's support of Hamas. If Hamas were to start suicide bombings again, the world wouldn't allow Israel to defend against that either. That's pure, unadulterated 100% anti-semitism. And in no way is it progressive.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)Do you seriously think that Palestinians are worse than anyone on the planet, or even that Palestinian terrorist groups are worse than any other terrorist groups on the planet? Because that's what you're sounding like. As though no one in modern history has EVER been as evil as the Palestinians; as though they are somehow utterly unique.
It's just as much rubbish, as when people act as though no one has ever been as bad as Israel and ignore the fact that our own countries have been involved in long-term bombing in two countries recently.
I detest and condemn Hamas, but they are not the only nasty terrorist/warmongering group in the world; nor is the I/P conflict the only one that is happening, even in the Middle East. What about Syria? And while one party is definitely the oppressor there, one can't deny that there is violence on all sides.
shira
(30,109 posts)....as freedom fighters and poor victims desperate for their own land and peace; and they could not do so as successfully without the help of the UN, NGO's, and the MSM (the so-called human rights community).
In no other conflict is such a grotesquely ultra-rightwing theocratic, regressive, misogynistic, homophobic, antisemitic organization defended by progressives AGAINST a genuinely liberal/progressive democracy that is demonized as though it were a mix between fascist Germany and apartheid S.Africa.
Hamas' true character is denied and ignored by so-called leftists. All they do to women, gays, and children is written off as morally equivalent to what a progressive democracy like Israel does on a daily basis (what Israel does is supposedly exponentially worse). In no way does a Marx, Luxemburg, Kausky, or Engels ever support or do propaganda for such a psychotic entity.
Hamas is largely what they are BECAUSE of all that support. It's unprecedented. If they and others like them were rightly condemned for the disgusting entity they are, we'd be a lot closer to peace these days. Contrary to popular opinion, they do react to being humiliated and shamed.
Finally, let's not equate Hamas to Palestinians in general. I'm pretty sure that the Palestinians Hamas victimizes daily don't appreciate that.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)nation on the planet that engages in violent resistance? Including terrorism against civilians? That is simply not true. It happens in many places. I am not saying that it SHOULD happen, in Palestine or anywhere else. But I am saying that it DOES happen. For example, it was happening in the UK until the 1990s (the Provisional IRA and spin-offs, and the Protestant 'paramilitary' i.e. terrorist, groups)
shira
(30,109 posts)...sanitized, whitewashed, explained away, and defended by the human rights community. Their antisemitic demonizing Pallywood attempts going back decades wouldn't be happening without supportive westerners, ngo's, the UN, media, and flottidiots. In no other situation on the planet and in modern history is there such a collaborative effort WRT total war vs. a liberal/progressive nation. A vile, unprecedented effort that unites the most ultra rightwing fascists, David Dukes, and BNP'ers with hard leftists.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)They live at its mercy. And Hamas is militarily invincible.
It is unfair and immoral to punish the people for what the leaders do.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)in a long time.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)This is why there will never be peace ... only one side can be right which means only one side can win.
Until you're willing to discuss the rockets, you can't expect the other side to discuss the missiles.
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but perhaps the idea of too many (Palestinian) deaths is foreign to you ?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm starting to suspect it's performance art.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)After you go through a war zone, see the dead, meet the grieving families... No, you don't want to hear the other sides' justifications right then. I think that's pretty understandable, it's a human empathy thing.
You're looking at someone who's still dealing with what they've just experienced. Don't take the sentiments too deeply.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... but until the empathetic hyperbole is taken out of this discussion all you're going to see is more bloodshed on both sides.
Fanning the flames is counterproductive unless your goal is to achieve more suffering. In that case, it's just the right way to go about it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Their leadership simply had no regard for the safety of the people of Gaza, including the children.
shira
(30,109 posts)The fail rate of their rockets/mortars is somewhere b/w 30-40%. Meaning that those rockets/mortars never make it across the border. They're exploding within Gaza, harming Palestinians.
Now where's the outrage?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Whom they also seem to have no regard for with their indiscriminate rocket fire.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)rDigital
(2,239 posts)aquart
(69,014 posts)Can you show me evidence of that rescue/relief effort?
Lotta talk about supporting the Palestinians. Turkey and Jordan are awash in Syrian refugees. How many tents has Egypt set up?
subsuelo
(4,002 posts)aquart
(69,014 posts)Saw it on House Hunters International.
Palestinians have loudly proclaimed Egyptian support. And Egypt controls the Rafah Gate.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Egypt has blockaded Gaza on Israeli orders(that was the ONLY reason Mubarak ever did it...there was no justification otherwise for Egypt to prevent Gazans from leaving, since Gazans never did anything to Egyptians).
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)IT is impossible to kill your way to peace...and all killing is the same.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Mosby
(16,318 posts)kayecy
(1,417 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:15 AM - Edit history (1)
09.00GMT Monday BBC reports:
80 Israeli attacks overnight killing another 18, mainly civilians.
3 Hamas rockets between midnight and dawn killing NO kids, NO civilians.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for their missiles ? and doesn't Israel reputedly do surgical strikes? but of course only Palestinians target people Israel only has accidents
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And it goes without saying that what the Israelis are doing here can't possibly get rid of Hamas at all.
Don't punish civilians for what the bad leaders do. There is nothing the people of Gaza could do to control Hamas' choices.