University students quit after ‘toxic’ antisemitism in Edinburgh

[shira]

Anti-Israel incidents at Scottish universities have contributed to Jewish students quitting their courses in despair, it was claimed this week.

Attacks have created a “toxic atmosphere” in which Jewish students no longer feel comfortable, a delegation of community representatives told senior Edinburgh University officials.

Among those who felt the need to leave was a former Edinburgh Jewish Society chair who dropped out of his course to study abroad, partly because of the fall-out from an incident in which Ishmael Khaldi, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s most senior Muslim diplomat, was mobbed as he spoke at the university in February last year.

That incident also allegedly affected a Jewish postgraduate student so severely that she was forced to seek an extension for her dissertation before cancelling an option to continue studying in Scotland. She also left for a different course elsewhere in Europe.

more...
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/93495/university-students-quit-after-toxic’-antisemitism-edinburgh

No, no really! It's not anti-semitism. It's just anti-zionism.

[jody]

1. Interesting because we in the US may be facing ‘toxic’ United States-ism. nt

[msongs]

2. anti - israel is not necessarily anti - jewish nt

[azurnoir]

3. did you not include the proper link because the article is almost 2 weeks old?

but okay someone quits recently because of an incident that happened last years well okay then I'm convinced owell of something anyways

[aquart]

4. I was about to say. Comes in mother's milk over there.

[shira]

14. As you can see in the responses, it must not be happening. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

45. Its actually in the water

they say its fluoride they're putting in there, but actually all the water in the UK contains Hysterium, a special compound developed by Prince Philip and MI-5 that turns people into anti-Semites.

All I can say is if you ever go to the UK make sure you drink only bottled water. You don't want to get caught up when the goy-Zombie apocalypse begins.

[intaglio]

5. And how many quit?

Edinburgh University Jewish Society numbers at least 70 and, correcting your link, states that the venom is "Anti-Israeli" not anti-Semitic.

:http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/93495/university-students-quit-after-toxic’-antisemitism-edinburgh

And although the article is given an inflammatory title, the body text only uses the word "antisemitism" once to describe enquiries from outside about that subject. In all other cases the incidents are described as anti-Israeli. It is also notable that there is disagreement within the JSoc .

Nice try ...

[shira]

17. Gordon Brown 'troubled' by CST antisemitism report

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/26857/gordon-brown-troubled-cst-antisemitism-report

Prime Minister Gordon Brown called the rise in antisemitism “deeply troubling”. He said debate over the Middle East conflict was welcome, but “no strength of feeling can ever justify violent extremism or attacks and we will stand firm against all those who would use anti-Israeli feeling as an excuse or disguise for antisemitism and attacks on the Jewish community.

924 antisemitic incidents in 2009
69% increase on 2008
288 incidents in January alone

“Whether online, on campus or on the streets, there is absolutely no place for racism or discrimination of any sort and the CST has my wholehearted support.”

================

Young members of the community faced threats at their schools and university campuses. There were 20 incidents involving Jewish teachers and pupils at mainstream schools and almost 100 cases of abusive behaviour, antisemitic literature and threats reported at university students and academics.

================

[intaglio]

23. A politician reacting to a biased survey in 2010

to gain possible advantage from the electorate. Very impressive. I'm sure you find it persuasive ...

As to the source for numbers of "anti-semitic" incidents I notice that it is the Community Security Trust, a charity whose sole purpose is to find and define anti-semitism to allow it to provide "advice" about security. They do not say how they arrive at their figures, which is in itself a dubious practise. I wonder why they do not use Home Office figures?

Tell you what, go to any of the "Mens Rights" sites and find out what they classify as misanthropy and misanthropic incidents. I think you might find a parallel to figures provided by other organisations of dubious neutrality.

Now to get back to my original question; "How many Jewish students quit the university because of this supposed anti-semitism?"

[shira]

33. We're done. I no longer debate anyone who doesn't take organizations.....

...like the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal Center, or CST seriously WRT antisemitism.

[King_David]

40. Amazing

That anyone thinks they know better on the subject of antisemitism than these Jewish organizations...

[shaayecanaan]

48. I don't take them seriously on much anymore...

the ADL has aided and abetted the denial of the Armenian Genocide, and has also stated that Muslims, while theoretically able to build a house of worship in New York, ought to not exercise that right for the sake of good taste.

Frankly, once you help in denying a genocide on one hand, and seek to limit the religious freedom of another, you cease to be a "civil rights organisation", in my book.

As for the Simon Wisenthal Centre, they hosted a screening of the Islamophobic film "the Third Jihad", a film that even the NYPD concedes is racist, and have been criticised for building a "Museum of Tolerance" on top of a Muslim cemetery.

To say nothing of the company that the SWC tends to keep:-

http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/simon-wiesenthal-center/

We recently posted an article written by Bob Pitt of Islamophobia-Watch concerning controversy over Islamophobic remarks by anti-Muslim speakers that led to several walk-outs at a symposium in London sponsored by the Journal for the Study of Antisemitism (JSA).

The walk-outs are a welcome development but a few of the condemnations of the disgusting and blatantly anti-Muslim remarks by speakers Bat “Eurabia” Ye’or (whose insane hatred of Islam and Muslims Danios covered) and Manfred Gerstenfeld left much to be desired. Take Dave Rich of the Community Trust’s response to Ye’or’s statements; Rich said Yeor’s words “could be construed as Islamophobic.”

No, Rich, they can’t be construed as Islamophobic, they are Islamophobic,

The controversy was prompted by contributions from two of the speakers. One was Bat Ye’or (the pen name of Gisèle Littman) who informed her audience that the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation is “the source of antisemitism” and that “Islam is denying the root of Judaism and Christianity with a profound belief in Jihad”

Manfred Gerstenfeld for his part “asserted that Muslim culture is inferior to Western culture.” In response to the controversy the JSA has this post on its home page: Drs. Richard Landes and Manfred Gerstenfeld’s responses to the British Left’s walkouts and criticisms. London Dec 2 2012.

What is the esteemed doctors’ response? An article with the tired, cliched supremacist title Why the West is Best that reads like it was picked out of the terrorist Anders Breivik’s manifesto. A little less than one hundred years ago the reasons White Westerners were giving for why the “West is best” was the racist claim that they were genetically and racially superior to non-White, non-Westerners, an idea that in part was central in leading to the Holocaust.

I don't doubt that these groups were once genuinely liberal institutions, but they seem to attract a different crowd these days.

[shira]

49. Here's where we disagree...

I'm thinking - and I could be wrong - that you support organizations which routinely work against the interests of human rights and liberal values. I'm thinking of a few organizations I know you support. I think there's a major difference between organizations that prove to be illiberal and those that unfortunately make 1 or 2 mistakes.

[shaayecanaan]

51. I disagree with you on a great many things...

and I could be wrong

and I dare say that you are.

I'm thinking of a few organizations I know you support.

And what might they be?

[intaglio]

61. So you do not believe your "heroes" can be wrong?

Do your research and stop supporting the Zionist excesses of a minority of Israelis and their apologists

[Kurska]

75. "Zionist excesses"

Oh my

I wonder if that is at all related to Jewish greed. We should investigate this



Is that really going to be the term you're going to use? I googled it and it seems the most viewed result from it is the works of David Duke. I'm not saying you're anti-semitic, but it appears a rather questionable phrase. I would recommend you find some other way to phrase what you are thinking, I do not believe that term will go over well much.

[azurnoir]

77. and in my Google search Mondoweiss was the second most viewed

and most likely source as it is used here on DU it is from an article entitled The true crisis of Zionism

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/the-true-crisis-of-zionism-silent-majority-of-us-jews-have-never-supported-it.html

strange indeed that David Duke is the first because in years here searching for various things I have never seen Duke come up first before

[Kurska]

79. If you don't believe me

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Zionist+excesses

Couldn't be easier

David duke predates that source by a couple months

[azurnoir]

81. No that was not what I said I said Mondoweiss was second

and considering that it is used here a more likely source albeit I do understand your wanting to insist it came from David Duke's site

[Kurska]

82. As a Jew I find it an offensive term when applied to the nation of Jews.

I think it is very clear why it could be viewed as an offensive term. Especially if you have an understanding of the stereotypes generally applied to Jews. I'd suggest alternate phrasing if I was sure what is meant by it, I currently do not. Is it that the Jewish state consumes more resources? Is it that the Jewish state desire more than it deserves? Is it that the Jewish has too of much of a certain thing? What is this thing that zionist desire so badly? Is it blood? Are you calling the movement blood thirsty? Please enlighten me to the meaning, I'm rather curious. Zionism is at the core of the Israeli nation so what you say about it applies to the state.

Could you imagine someone using the term Mexicanist laze? Clearly there is a better way to phrase things than to associate negative traits to nation states or their movements?

[azurnoir]

100. I'm not calling the Zionist movement anything

we were talking about the source of a quote and in addition I can no longer define Zionism because it would seem that has as with everything changed over time

[Kurska]

104. Perhaps a better question is what the term is calling it. n/t

[azurnoir]

107. I think your having that discussion down thread n/t

[intaglio]

78. No, I said the excesses of a particular NATIONALIST ideology

Please examine these links and tell me they are supporters of Mr Duke
International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network

Neturei Karta

There are also pro-Zionist Gentiles, notably Christian Fundamentalist and Dominionist nutbags

Would you accuse me of being anti-American if I pointed out the vile excesses of the NRA?

To be frank whatever your personal racial or religious background I would say you are the supporter of a particularly vicious nationalism who has resorted to "guilt by failed internet search"

[Kurska]

80. We're talking about the term, sir, not the validity of the entire movement.

I'm saying the term is offensive because of the traditional stereotypes against the jewish people and incorrect in in reference to the Jewish nation.

I am SUGGESTING you find a new term for whatever concept you are trying to communicate. Is it that the Jewish nation uses more resources than others? Is it that Jewish nation has performed some action excessively?

Or if you want to keep tilting at windmills and implying that I call all people opposed to Zionist anti-Smites, go ahead.

I question your responses to a member of a minority group politely asking you to reconsider the terminology you're using for their nation-state.

[azurnoir]

83. you mean Israel? which is 75% Jewish?

if being a majority in a multi ethnic country makes it solely that groups country we'd better rename the US too huh? it could seem that you wish to deny the existence of other besides Jews in Israel?

[Kurska]

84. Being a Jewish nation doesn't mean non-jews aren't allowed or treated unfairly.

France is the traditional national home of the french people. That doesn't mean that minorities are unwelcome or treated unfairly.The French people are also made up of a variety of ethnic groups just like the Jewish people are.

You're having a wonderful time putting words into my mouth with this "denial" business. Did I ever said that Israel was exclusively Jewish or that non-jews shouldn't be welcome?

[azurnoir]

85. yes but no matter what their racial or gentic ethnic group in France

everyone who is a citizen is French just as in Israel everyone who is a citizen is Israeli

[Kurska]

87. I completely dispute that everyone in France is french.

Some people living in France don't even hold french citizenship and have no interest in being considered french. What about french citizens that reject the french identity like some Bretons or Basque? Do they not have a say in the matter?

Did I ever claim that Israeli Arabs are not Israeli? Just because Israel is the national homes of the Jews does not mean it can't be the home of Israeli Arab citizens.

Tell me do you believe it is impossible for two ethnic groups to share a state or part of a state as a home?

[azurnoir]

88. yes but I specified citizen in my comment n/t

[Kurska]

90. You might have missed an edit to my post

What about french citizens that reject the french identity like some Bretons or Basque? Do they not have a say in the matter?

I do not believe citizenship is the best way to determine who is French, it would force you to include people as French who have no interest in being french. Honestly, it sounds like a rather assimilationist attitude.

[azurnoir]

91. is an assimilationist attitude bad? assimilation has been happening since man could walk

to one degree or another

[Kurska]

94. If you believe that minorities have a right to retain their culture and identity within a national

unit, yes it is a rather bad attitude.

Assimilation is optional and should be rejectable, especially if the preference is for another nation state.

[azurnoir]

98. well anyone has a right to chose whom they marry or have children with

but OtOH assimilation happens one example was a show I think National Geo Chanel or Science concerning genetic marks and who we (humans) really they took volunteers who would have both their mitochondrial (maternal) DNA and paternal DNA tested for placement among ethnic groups and towards the end there was a Turkish couple and the man got quite a surprise when it came out that his paternal DNA was Ashkenazi

eta people have the right to chose as individuals whether or not to remain culturally or ethnically pure but over time there will be be a drift from that what you say alludes to force what I am saying is human nature

eta2 maybe I am a bad one to ask as I am white but my dauhgters are bi-racial actually tri-racial as their father is Black and Native American

[Kurska]

103. What do national identities have to do with ethnic composition?

Surely you're not saying that an the daughter of two Algerian immigrants could not be considered french?

They are two very separate concepts in my mind.

[azurnoir]

106. ah so now your turning around ?

here is the thing and my point of course she's French and parts of Algerian heritage and culture will remain but she is also French those things will merge and blend that is what happens

[intaglio]

86. No you are saying that anybody who is anti-Zionist is anti Jewish

what is more you are accusing me of being a supporter of a racist ideology. As observed not all Jews are Zionist.

Zionism is the founding ideology of the current government of Israel. It was the label under which the various terrorist organisations which became Likud fought. Note that other terrorist groups have also successfully founded governments and political parties and once they abandon their terrorism and the extreme ideology which drove that I find nothing worthy of censure. Unfortunately the extreme ideology that informed the foundation of Israel has continued into the oppression and terrorising of large populations both within and without the borders of Israel.

It is also of note that my personal belief is that Zionism became extreme in part due to the actions of the Mandate forces, especially the British. There is some evidence to show that attempts by Zionists to purchase large swathes of land in Palestine (thus establishing a Jewish state by purchase) was working. Then the Mandate government stepped in and stopped that, which left the settlers no option but to fight.

[Kurska]

89. I never said that

"I'm not saying you're anti-semitic, but it is a questionable term."

Isn't this issue difficulty enough without you inserting your strawmen into my mouth? You're swinging at an imaginary foe. All I claimed was that the term was offensive to some Jewish ears. Especially when it turns out it appears to be in the vocabulary of one of the most disgusting anti-semite of our time.

I suppose consideration of a different term to the express your idea (which remains unclear to me) is too much to ask. The fact that the meaning seems rather unclear might call for another term in and of itself.

[intaglio]

92. What would you prefer? anti-Israeli?

That would be wrong for it is only the ideology that should be censured and that only because of the excesses the ideology currently allows. The nationality should not be so censured because the nationality includes many who oppose governing party methods. Similarly the religious or racial background must not be criticised, just the ideology, because there will be many of that religious or racial background who are not guilty of excess.

I do not criticise the Irish or the Catholics for the murderous tactics of the IRA but to say I cannot be anti-IRA because it is used as code to encourage hate of the Catholics or the Irish by extremist groups is foolish.

[Kurska]

93. When did it get in your head that we are talking about the term anti-zionism?

I believe it would benefit you to review the conversation.

[intaglio]

95. Quote, posted by Kurska Sunday December 23 at 06:46 am (GMT)

We're talking about the term, sir, not the validity of the entire movement.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113426158#post80

[Kurska]

96. The term zionist excesses

I believe you misread my post

[intaglio]

97. Quote. posted by intaglio Sunday Dec 23 7:12 am (GMT)

Zionism is the founding ideology of the current government of Israel. It was the label under which the various terrorist organisations which became Likud fought. Note that other terrorist groups have also successfully founded governments and political parties and once they abandon their terrorism and the extreme ideology which drove that I find nothing worthy of censure. Unfortunately the extreme ideology that informed the foundation of Israel has continued into the oppression and terrorising of large populations both within and without the borders of Israel.

Emphasis added

[Kurska]

101. This has what to do with your offensive term again? n/t

[demokatgurrl]

27. You cannot win with this on a liberal site

And yes I am a liberal but we part ways when it comes to anti-semitism denial. No, being opposed to the policies of the Israeli government SHOULD not amount to anti-semitism. But the line is often blurred and crossed.

[shira]

34. Not following you. Do you agree or disagree with me? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. The headline to the article is disingenuous. It was a protest against Israeli policies.

Color me shocked that you would post this.


From the article.

Among those who felt the need to leave was a former Edinburgh Jewish Society chair who dropped out of his course to study abroad, partly because of the fall-out from an incident in which Ishmael Khaldi, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s most senior Muslim diplomat, was mobbed as he spoke at the university in February last year.

Yeah, he was confronted by a group of students that chanted "free, free Palestine" and "boycott Israel."

Link to video.
http://www.thejc.com/videos/news-videos/protesters-disrupt-ismail-khaldi-edinburgh-talk

It's horrific, just horrific to imagine that students at a university might actually act like students with ideals: students that protest injustice.

I can understand that that some are horrified that the students didn't line up to lick his balls, but Edinburgh is not Israel. Other countries citizens don't have to suck up to Israel no matter how bad Israel's supporters may expect them to.

More from the article.

One source said JSoc had been “decimated by these events” with Jewish students left “arguing with each other” and “scared” to defend Israel on campus.

I would consider it very hard to defend the actions of the Israeli apartheid state. I would hope that these students take some time to reflect on what Israel looks like to the rest of the world instead of pretending that this was anti-Semitism. I didn't hear any racial epithets hurled in the video. Too bad you didn't post that, but I can understand that it wouldn't serve the purpose.

More.

"The university needs to be aware of the international damage that is being done not only to Edinburgh’s reputation, but also to that of other Scottish universities and to the wider nation,” a community spokesman said.

Wrong. Israel needs to be aware of the international damage that it is causing itself by its actions. Instead they apparently plan on doing what they have done in recent history and build more illegal settlement housing and tell the world to fuck off. I guess that people outside Israel have had enough and plan to tell it like it is.

Good for them.

Now if you really want to address anti-Semitism them maybe you should find something really offensive at Edinburgh instead of a student group protesting an Israeli official coming to their school.


Food for thought for those that think. You can excuse yourself from this if you like.
http://www.imemc.org/article/60568

"The IR society had a long discussion about hosting Ishmael Khaldi. We came to the conclusion that providing a platform for a representative of the Israeli state would be at the expense of the millions of Palestinians who live under Apartheid."

[oberliner]

7. The irony of the quotation in that last paragraph is staggering

Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin vice consul of Israel and the first high ranking Muslim diplomat in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. Only to those who wish to blow smoke up other people's backsides.

Last edited Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:26 PM - Edit history (1)

History is full of subservient individuals, who come from minority classes, that will sell out in order to profit while the larger part of their people are suffering. Condoleeza Rice, Alberto Gonzales and SCJ Clarence Thomas are three that come to mind. Oh, yes. You can criticize them, but be careful or somebody might try to call you a bigot... or in this case an anti-Semite.

It's also hilarious how you didn't refute anything else. You just looked for the easiest thing to go after and failed.

The article didn't show anti-Semitism by the protesters in any way. It implied it poorly. I guess that a protest against an Israeli official is anti-Semitism to the author of the article. And conversely the article implies anti-Semitism because of this protest yet the Official isn't Jewish. There's the real irony. I guess you missed that.

Subtext: Protest of Israel is anti-Semitism.

I also guess that some posters of OPs are getting sloppy or don't believe that anybody will check their homework.

Amateurs.

[Scootaloo]

10. Not at all, your inability to understand what it says is laughable

Mr. Khaldi isn't Palestinian, either by nationality, heritage, or self-identification. He's an Israeli and identifies himself as such, and the Bedouin have always held themselves as a separate community. of course, if you wish to ignore the reality of an occupied West Bank, an ever-diminishing East Jerusalem, and a military-blockaded bombing range known as Gaza, I guess that's your perogative.

But what am I to make of the one senior Arab diplomat in a nation that is 20% Arab? He's the senior Muslim diplomat in a nation that is 16% Muslim? Who, himself, says there's a good way to go before full equality is reached for Arabs in Israel? Not apartheid, but as an American, it looks very familiar...

[intaglio]

11. And what is your opinion of former Rep. Alan West?

Do you look at him as a valid representative of the African-American community? Or as a token used by the Republicans because of his extreme views.

As a side note I believe that the Bedouin and the Palestinians are not exactly BFFs historically - but I am open to correction on that.

[shira]

37. Obie, they don't get it. Nor do they want to get it....

Israel's non-Jewish citizenry can do or be anything they wish. They have the same rights as Jews, by law. Arguing whether Israel is an apartheid state is just as much a waste of time as arguing whether or not it's a Nazi state.

[King_David]

64. He says your an "amateur "

Amateur what ?

[shira]

16. Antisemitic hate incidents still on the rise

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/oct2008/antisemitic-hate-incidents.html

Violent assaults fall, but campus antisemitism almost doubles

CST has recorded 266 antisemitic incidents in the first six months of 2008, a 9 per cent rise from the 244 incidents recorded in the same period last year. This rise is based in smaller Jewish communities beyond the main centres of London and Manchester, and may reflect improved reporting from those areas. There is also a significant increase in the number of reported incidents involving students, both on and off campus.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. This doesn't change anything about your original post being BS.

If you had led with just this article I wouldn't have called you on it.

I'm sure you can show corroborating evidence about anti-Semitism, and whomever does it is evil. That goes for any bigotry anywhere against anybody.

But the door swings both ways. What I am calling you on is a hatchet piece you have created to drum up support for your cause at the expense of the truth.

[shira]

35. It wasn't BS. Anti-semitism on UK campuses is a serious problem. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

46. You posted a weak article which screamed atisemitism yet showed no examples.

You failed to post a link to the actual student protest, but I did. It didn't show antisemitism, but it did show students protesting an Israeli politician.

Only after I pointed this out you fell all over yourself to post more articles about antisemitism.

You are an all around first rate second rate person. Stop bullshitting the forum and be honest about your intentions.

[shira]

47. Right. Jewish students hiding their Jewishness, scared to talk about Israel....

Nothing to see here!

And once again, you're fighting a straw-man as the article never stated that the Khaldi event at Edinburgh was an antisemitic hatefest. This 'second rate' nonsense appears to be projection.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

52. That's their problem.

The article's main thrust was over the fallout of the student protest of an Israeli politician. It didn't mention anything in detail except that the students surrounded a Israeli politician. So the gnashing of teeth by the JSoc and departures does little to explain why they left unless there was more to the poorly written story. Perhaps there was less.

From the article.
One source said JSoc had been “decimated by these events” with Jewish students left “arguing with each other” and “scared” to defend Israel on campus.

You posted an incendiary article entitled "University students quit after ‘toxic’ antisemitism in Edinburgh" and have the gall to now say that "the article never stated that the Khaldi event at Edinburgh was an antisemitic hatefest."

You're a hack.

[shira]

53. Jews scared into hiding their Jewishness is their problem? Seriously?

Wow.

The fallout from the protest - that which resulted - has led to students being scared to defend Israel and show they're Jewish. If that's not toxic enough for you, I suppose that's your problem.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

55. Your poorly posted article describes them arguing amongst themselves.

One source said JSoc had been “decimated by these events” with Jewish students left “arguing with each other”

And...

“hide their Jewish identity due to the hostile atmosphere at Edinburgh”


Yet the article doesn't go into any detail as to why. You posted dog shit and want a medal for it.

My only conclusion is that you're still a hack.

[King_David]

65. "Your poorly posted article "

How does one post an article poorly?

Double clicked instead of single click ?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. Have a nice nite.

I'll let the syntax police know you may be looking for a position with them.

[King_David]

71. Thanks,

I will ...

[King_David]

60. 'You're a hack'

I do not feel so bad now, it is not just myself that you get downright personnel and insulting when you disagree with their point of view.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. I made you feel bad? Poor you. Get over it.

[King_David]

19. Can you imagine that the Jewish group and Jews

have absolutely no clue what antisemitism is and needs others to define it for them/us ...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. Can you imagine that I consider what you write of little importance?

The OP failed miserably to do what it could have easily done. Instead it tried to link a series of events to anti-Semitism when the article was more about a student protest of an Israeli official.

Now, the poster is attempting to fix that by loading up on other articles on ant-Semitism.

Crying wolf doesn't always work, and I'll give credit when credit is due.

Amateurs.

[King_David]

22. " Can you imagine that I consider what you write of little importance""

That's just another rude post .

And a sure sign that my posts get under your skin

From you...sigh

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. No. Not really. It's truth that I don't hold you in high regard.

You argue from a position of moral bankruptcy.

If you believe that you get under my skin then I guess that is a fantasy that I will leave to you and your imagination.



Buh-bye.

[King_David]

25. I know that's true

You have a problem with anyone you disagree with .

I used to be the same way as a child.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

26. Buh-bye.

[King_David]

28. QED. nt

[shira]

30. Your rebuttal is a joke. These hooligans you're defending are against free speech...

And of course, a liberal like yourself doesn't mind thugs like the SJP muzzling freedom of expression.

You quoted the article which stated Jewish students were scared to talk about Israel. And you're defending this? Jewish students shouldn't have to fear discussing anything with anyone in a free society.

In addition, the article isn't stating that interrupting the Ishmael Khaldi event was anti-semitic. It stated that "because of the fall-out from" that incident. Do you understand the difference?

You also must have missed this from the article:

One source said JSoc had been “decimated by these events” with Jewish students left “arguing with each other” and “scared” to defend Israel on campus.

The claims emerged after representatives of the Jewish community met university officers last week to discuss their concerns.

Members of Scottish Jewish Student Chaplaincy and the Scottish Council of Jewish Communities told the university bosses that Jewish students had felt it necessary to “hide their Jewish identity due to the hostile atmosphere at Edinburgh” and were now seeking “secure and safe” space on campus.

SCoJeC also reported a rise in the number of enquiries from parents and potential students in the US and Europe about the safety of Jewish students at Scottish universities. In the past three years, the number of queries about campus antisemitism had risen five-fold, SCoJeC said.

So anti-semitism is a growing problem at Edinburgh. I can't see why people on a liberal board would attempt to ignore or deny that. You should also check out Students-For-Justice-In-Palestine. They're the group who muzzled Khaldi rather than debate him. They're radical pro-Hamas warmongers against Israel's existence.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. No, Shira. Your posts are a joke.

[shira]

38. lol n/t

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

[Scootaloo]

9. A speech was interrupted at a university? Flags? Chants?!

I am shocked and appalled!

*cough*

Okay, yeah... No I'm not.

[shira]

15. 'Not enough done' against campus antisemitism

https://www.sodahead.com/united-states/not-enough-done-against-campus-antisemitism/question-1321591/

Antisemitism in universities remains a major concern and the government needs to do more work to address it, an all party group of MPs has warned.

A progress report (pdf) one year after the government's response to the All-Party Inquiry into Antisemitism suggests the Department for Innovation, Universities and Science has failed to do enough to tackle antisemitism on campus.

============

Yair Zivan, campaigns officer for the Union of Jewish Students (UJS), said: "The situation on campus is certainly not getting better. The Community Security Trust recorded 59 incidents of antisemitism on campus in 2007. This year that number will be dramatically exceeded."

[Scootaloo]

29. Okay? It still doesn't make interrupting a speech antisemitic

Now if you've got something to show that the slogans being shouted were antisemitic - and remember Shira, Israel does not equal Jews - that'd be something.

Also, you go to Sodahead? God, why?

[shira]

32. Re-read the article. Antisemitism is resulting from the fall-out to that incident.

You don't have a problem with those thugs muzzling Khaldi and his right to speak freely?

As to 'sodahead', I never heard of the site until you just mentioned it. I was just googling campus antisemitism in the UK and came across that article.

[Scootaloo]

59. I did. I even read the linked PDF

No mention of Edinburgh, Khaldi, or anything else specific.

"thugs muzzling his right to speak freely"? Last time I heard that phrase, it was a bunch of Paultopians screeching it about people protesting some libertarian economist. You're not making it sound any smarter than they did.

You could argue that what they did was rude, and I'd be inclined to agree. it wasn't antisemitism, and it sure as fuck wasn't curtailing his "right to speak freely."

And Sodahead is just a really dumb place in general.

[shira]

62. And the result from that event was more animosity towards Jews on campus....

...to the point they were scared to debate Israel, and worse, be openly Jewish. That's the point of the OP.

It's interesting that all the enlightened "progressives" here who are attacking the OP couldn't care less what is happening to Jews on UK campuses.

My guess is, that if Arabs @ Edinburgh were scared to discuss mideast politics, for fear of being attacked - or if they were Muslims who were too scared to practice their beliefs - our enlightened friends here would be horrified. At least I hope they would.

[Scootaloo]

66. Actually, they would be laughed at in an identical situation

because frankly, "A speech was interrupted and i'm afraid to be jewish / Arab / White / Whatever" is fucking ludicrous. perhaps if the interruption had actually targeted said group with hostility, I could see it... but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

What it looks like to me, is a few students taking pointers from their christian counterparts; You know, "the darwinists and sodomites must be silenced for my comfort on campus!"

If you can dig up some instances of actual antisemitism, and not just "arguing with the Delivered Wisdom about Israel is antisemitism!" then sure, then I'm sympathetic. But from the OP and your follow-up, it just looks like some students feigning oppression in order to silence opinions they disagree with.

[shira]

72. You have a pattern of writing off antisemitic attacks vs. Israelis & Jews....

Be it by word or deed...

Weeks ago, it was the "ermagerd rerkerts" which put millions of Israelis in bomb shelters. I expect that kind of mocking from extreme rightwing bigots @ Stormfront, not here.

And now it's students who are being intimidated and fear being outwardly Jewish. Here you are accusing them of dishonesty in order to deflect from criticism of Israel? Seriously??? Is that how you initially react to Gay, Black, or Muslim claims of racism and bigotry? How gross.

Thinking back, when faced with the most revolting, murderous incitement by Hamas and Fatah to murder Jews you denied it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113413538#post98

Remember Greta Berlin? She's still a leader of FreeGaza, where the new board enthusiastically supports her. She and her organization were ripped torn apart by EI's Ali Abunimah and a fellow activist who exposed her hateful Facebook group....
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/if-only-it-was-just-one-tweet-one-activists-experience-in-the-our-land-facebook-group.html

You couldn't even admit that was problematic:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113417963#post276

==============

This is a disturbing pattern.

Do you have an explanation?

[Scootaloo]

74. I'm afraid you've misunderstood me, Shira.

"Ermagerd Rerkerts" is a mockery of you. It's not me belittling the danger rockets pose - a subject I've commented on often, and which I have taken other DU'ers to task for when they belittle those dangers. Rather, I was belittling you, personally. No matter how many civilians die, no matter how many innocents are turned into flying meat by the Israelis "Defense" forces, you are first in line to tell me they deserved it "because rockets." That Israel is perfectly right to slaughter civilians because Hamas is launching rockets. In my head, I see you running around screeching "ERMAGERD, RERKERTS!" like a spastic little... thing. it amuses me.

I'm trying to see where I denied anything in that post, Shira. I think it's time you came to the rtealization that making shit up does not mean it's true.

As I said in the post above, show me these students facing antisemitism, and they'll certainly have my sympathy. But all you've managed to do is show me that an Israeli diplomat's presentation was interrupted by people waving a Palestinian flag. Rude, perhaps, but not actually antisemitic. I've asked you for more evidence of the claim three times now, you've completely failed to produce. I'll hold out hope that you've got something other than wild-eyed tangent, but... well.. you've never risen above that level in our past discussions so I guess I hope in vain.

[shira]

12. UK academic union faces claims of ‘institutional anti-Semitism’

http://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-academic-union-to-face-claims-of-institutional-anti-semitism/


Two of the three witnesses who testified during the opening session Monday discussed UCU’s decision to allow the international relations spokesperson for the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU), Bongani Masuku, to speak at a UK conference promoting boycott and divestment of Israel in December 2009. Just two days earlier, the South African Human Rights Commission had publicized its finding that Masuku was guilty of hate speech against the Jewish community of South Africa. The statements, which were made at a student rally at the University of Witwatersrand the previous March, included threats to South African families with children in the IDF, as well as a promise to make the lives of Zionists in South Africa “hell.”

===========

“Whether Israel is or is not an apartheid state is academic discourse; it’s often discussed in the South African media,” she said. “When comments are made, ‘I came to the conclusion that Jews are arrogant’ or ‘Jews control the US’ — these comments are unacceptable, that’s when you go to the Human Rights Commission. When Jews are talked about as having blood dripping from their hands, that they should leave the country — that’s when you go to the Human Rights Commission.”

===========

[King_David]

20. Most Jews don't understand antisemitism

That is why we require others to explain to us what is and what is not?

[azurnoir]

31. That is your quote not mine once again we're back to do you speak for all Jews

or only those who participate in what could be called Rightwing pro-occupation groups such as WZO?

the others you mention are almost impossible to access because most have very local and differing affiliates

[King_David]

39. I explained how I'm in the community

Mainstream Jewish community and active participant in all facets of Jewish life


Explain how you presume to know better.. Maybe your more in touch with average Jewish opinion than I am ?

Tell us ..

I am awaiting in anticipation.

[azurnoir]

41. you explained that you were a member of several organizations at least one of which

is markedly rightwing and pro-occupation

however as I do know several Jews who do disagree with Israel's current actions you can not claim to speak for the mainstream wich is all over the board so to speak

oh and I never said that which you chose to state I did but your answers to speak loudly for you and only you

[King_David]

42. Not all correct,

But there is a mainstream yes , and mainstream opinion is ...the opinion of those of us posting on this forum .

[azurnoir]

43. ah so you are claiming to be a spokesman glad we cleared that up

thank you

[King_David]

44. No problem. nt

[Scootaloo]

99. The Tea Party considers its opinions "mainstream" as well

A general rule of thumb is that if someone talks about how mainstream they are, the less likely that claim is to be true.

Call it Scootaloo's Law of Reverse Hipsterism.

[shira]

13. Jewish Students Say U.K. Groups Ignore Anti-Semitic Acts on Campus

http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=104172


In front of a packed hall at the group's annual conference, Luciana Berger, 23, a graduate student at London's Birkbeck College, announced that she was leaving the union, as were colleagues Mitch Simmons and Jonny Warren.

In an emotional speech, Berger, the co-organizer of the union's anti-racism and anti-fascism campaign, accused the NUS leadership of having failed consistently to address a full year of anti-Jewish incidents on campus.

"While I accuse no one of anti-Semitism, this year NUS has been a bystander to Jew-hatred," Berger said. "In the past three days, at the heart of our democratic union, to my horror, I have seen the events of the year replayed."

Berger said she was disgusted by the union's failure to take action against anti-Semitic leaflets distributed at the conference -- including one that cited the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and compared the Jewish people to the Nazi

===================

"We shouldn't be the only ones fighting anti-Semitism. Everyone should be fighting all forms of racial prejudice," Simmons added. "People pay lip service to ideas of equality but don't seem to care about anti-Semitism."

[shaayecanaan]

50. How many years ago was this?

She also was angry at the union for not living up to its commitment to provide kosher food for around 70 Jewish delegates at the conference.

My guess is the food was largely vegan anyway, at least based on my experience of student union gatherings. I am pretty sure that a lentil patty is sufficiently halal or kosher for anyone's purposes.

Anyway, apparently this little bunfight was all fought out over seven years ago:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2005/sep/20/studentpolitics.students

NUS cleared of anti-semitism claims

Tuesday 20 September 2005

The National Union of Students (NUS) was today cleared of failing to tackle anti-semitism against its members, but criticised for not having rigorous complaints procedures in place and reacting too slowly to allegations.

Hopefully the standard of catering has improved to the extent that Ms Berger can now sleep at night.

[shira]

54. Doesn't matter. It's ongoing and arguably worse now.

The other articles linked here are just a google sample of UK campus antisemitism.

You're free to mock all of them.

[shaayecanaan]

56. Worse?

You mean that student union delegates have been reduced to tea and biscuits for lunch? I'll bet that its not even kosher tea. Surely Hitler is spinning in his grave.

The other articles linked here are just a google sample of UK campus antisemitism.

And such a compelling sample it is. I am sure you have far more persuasive examples of actual, real anti-semitism at UK universities, but you're refraining from citing them due to the delicate sensibilities of the forum participants here.

You're free to mock all of them.

But you make it so easy.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

57. The OP link is a crap article yet it is being beaten worse than a dead horse.

Last edited Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

And the usual suspects cling to it as if it were the word of god.

If somebody or some group is going to be called out for anti-Semitism then at the very least the article should have something in it like actual documented anti-Semitism.

The whole OP is farce.

[shaayecanaan]

58. They have it in for Britain...

there are countries in Europe where there is serious anti-Semitism - Romania and Russia come to mind. The Hasbarados on this forum tend to ignore those countries where it is a genuine problem, and instead prefer to concentrate their energies on conflating support for the Palestinians with anti-Semitism in more progressive countries such as Britain and Norway.

There are a few reasons for this. British news agencies are often regarded as the outlets of record in much of the globe - the BBC and the Guardian newspaper, for example. The British still outpunch the Americans in that regard - CNN and Voice of America don't carry the same weight or credibility, and generally the British press is more even-handed in its coverage of I/P issues than the Americans.

There is also a historical animus towards Britain, although ironically Britain was in effect the architect of Israel if not its creator. The 1948 war (called the War of Independence by Israel) was in effect a British-Jewish war rather than an Arab-Jewish war. The main opponent of Jewish forces in that war was the Arab Legion, led by Pasha Glubb and other British officers, who fought mainly (and successfully) to preserve an Arab presence in the West Bank and to prevent Palestine from being wiped out entirely.

[oberliner]

67. You've made more posts on this thread than anyone else

Seems like a lot of time and posting to spend on a "crap" article.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

68. Opinions vary.

Also, you may want to check your math.

[oberliner]

70. Meaning what?

And the math checks out.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

73. Shira 19 posts. R. Daneel Olivaw 14 posts.

Have a nice nite.

[JDPriestly]

76. It's really anti-semitism, and it is common on DU.

[Democracyinkind]

102. Where's the antisemitism?

Even your articke can't seem to find it. -10 points for the old protestibg israeli foreign policy is antisemitic schtick.

[LeftishBrit]

105. As perhaps the only person on the forum with lots of experience with British university life

Last edited Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:42 AM - Edit history (1)

(1) Yes, antisemitism is a problem.

(2) Some other forms of racism are more extreme here; and as Shaayecanaan points out, antisemitism is not nearly as bad a problem here as in some other Europaean countries. Poland and Hungary are probably the worst, though Eastern Europe in general is not great from this point of view, and neither is Spain.

(3) But there was a REALLY shocking incident about a year ago, pretty much on my doorstep:

http://oxfordstudent.com/2011/11/08/leaked-documents-reveal-ouca-as-corrupt-from-top-to-bottom/

Note that the Oxford University Conservative Association is not just any old bunch of drunk students causing problems for others; it has long been, and doubtless will be in the future, a key breeding ground for Tory politicians and prime ministers.

(4) This is not a new phenomenon - I remember a fellow student in the 80s pontificating about how Hitler's only real flaw was his invading other countries; if he'd stayed at home and stuck to his policies, it would have been OK.

(5) I perceive a tendency on one side to downplay or deny the existence of antisemitism in Britain, and on the other to equate it with leftwing anti-Zionism. Yes, there are certainly times when anti-Israel sentiment (especially perhaps in universities with a high proportion of overseas students from Middle Eastern countries such as LSE) can go off the rails - as can sentiment against other countries. But a lot of antisemitism at universities is part of right-wing elitist bigotry, sometimes fuelled by drunkenness, as in the example that I gave.