Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumFirst time since disengagement: a whole month without rockets
Figures published by the GSS shows that during December Not even one rocket was fired into Israel. Senior Southern Command: "20 years ago there was such a quiet area." Throughout 2012, the Palestinian terrorist organizations carried out a record number of 1893 launches
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ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)if only the Israeli terrorist organization of IDF killers hadn't been shooting to kill Palestinian civilians in that same time period. . ., injuring many more. But that's par for the course.
On the upside, if we all continue to agree to use the term "terrorist" selectively and relentlessly to describe Palestinians, and continue to agree never to use it to describe Israelis, then these Israeli killings won't matter to us at all. Such is the power of words. Well, until some Palestinian decides to strike back, in which case it will once again certainly be totally unprovoked terrorism, as to be expected of a terrorist people - justifying the military measures Israel must and does take to pacify them.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Israeli army is a terrorist organization?
My general point was the use of loaded language in the "war on terror", and the continuous use of that language to describe the opposing forces that Israel/US faces. Of course if only Israel/US are allowed to designate who is/isn't a terrorist, which organization is/isn't terrorist, then Israeli/US forces will always be on the side of the angels. But it goes without saying that such a view would be biased.
Some say that the Nakba was a large-scale terror operation dispossessing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and erasing their history, and that the subsequent occupation/siege and targeted assassination program is a continuation of that terror - so in that view terrorism is the routine activity of the IDF. You may disagree, but if the same were perpetrated against your people, your view might be different - in fact, your view might then be recorded in the history of your people as a defining moment of persecution.
The routine IDF murders of Palestinian civilians along the border walls/fences, the IDF shooting into Palestine at will, would no doubt be called terrorism if it were foreign forces shooting Israeli citizens going about their business inside Israel. In that case such killings would get one hell of a lot of media play, and the media play wouldn't die down after a day or two but would continue until it was sure that the terrorist killings wouldn't be forgotten.
The historical roots of the IDF, and some Israeli Prime Ministers, encompass classical terrorism.
In any event, what I think about who or which organization is/isn't terrorist is beside the point. The point I was trying to make is that were it Israel and Israeli forces/leaders who were continually, in every case where they are mentioned, labelled "terrorist", it would certainly have an effect on perceptions. The continuous use of this word would by itself define a narrative justifying continuous retaliation, and the impossibility of compromise or diplomacy.
And we see this every day, in every action in the great unending WoT. The WoT can expand to any arena, any country at will, by the simple expedient of describing the enemy as "terrorist". On the other hand, many of these same fighters, when deployed in Syria or Libya, paid for and armed by Saudi and Qatari sources, are designated "freedom fighters" and acquire the mystical appeal of selfless idealists.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)which is why your confused;
terrorism at is base is simply the targeting of civilians.
hamas rockets for the most part as we have seen have targeted israeli cities landing randomly..i.e. terrorism.
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this is why your confused
The routine IDF murders of Palestinian civilians along the border walls/fences, the IDF shooting into Palestine at will, would no doubt be called terrorism if it were foreign forces shooting Israeli citizens going about their business inside Israel
I have never heard of any IDF policy that includes " just shooting into Palestine at will.....going about their business"
if you actually knew the actual IDF policies, the actual events, you wouldnt be so confused and would see a clear difference between the hamas policy vs the IDF policy.
but thats not really relevant...i already know that.
delrem
(9,688 posts)That comes with the territory that you set out. That doesn't mean that (for one example) the IDF sniping of random Palestinians going about their business in Palestinian territory isn't terrorism.
You might think that you have the unique right to employ this terminology, but you don't, nor do your semantic niceties have any import beyond the fact that they display your state of mind.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if your words were accurate, then you wouldnt be able to compare hamas and the IDF as the same, thats is why the semantics are important, and why you dismiss them
got any real examples where you have real information? of your statement...or is it just something you prefer to believe?....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113428314#post5
for a recent discussion of same.
Where did I say that Hamas and the IDF were "the same".
The most I suggested was that they are similar in that both engage in terrorist activities.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so if everyone who gets near the gaza fence is a civilian...just who is planting the bombs on the fence that suddenly blow up when the patrol jeep drives by?
who is sniping at the soldiers who are patrolling
who exactly shot the school bus with a anti tank missile
who is lobbing those mortars in to israel...(the have limited range are are launched from near the fence area)
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care to explain....or is the IDF so incompetent that they can only shoot farmers and dont even see the actual shooters?
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)i also have a strong preference for honesty..which includes not leaving out relevant information. An honest viewpoint, would mean that BEFORE you used the list to make your point, you would have at last done a simple cross check with attacks from gaza and shooting dates
who knows what you would have discovered?...perhaps with some research you would have discovered that those innocent farmers are not so innocent....
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but its okay, i also believe in "localization" and i know that here at the DU, ideology and agenda with the "ends justifies the means" mentality is always to be taken into account, real research and conclusions based on that research is not really part of the online culture here.
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Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...and has no significant support within the general population.
OTOH, the terror that Hamas and the PLO incite, plan, and celebrate is mainstream in Palestinian society, as most Palestinians approve of it.
You couldn't be more confused or disingenuous trying to equate the 2 societies.
Look up the definition of the moral equivalency fallacy and you'll find that's exactly what you're doing here.
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)If you did, you'd already know my answer: that the Israeli populace don't *recognize* IDF/Israeli terror because it's not part of their narrative. The entire focus of the Israeli narrative is on Hamas/Palestinian terror. Because that narrative is necessary, they use the word every time Hamas is mentioned.
Your own posts illustrate this. You can't see terror where it exists as part of the subjugation and control of the Palestinian population, because to see it would contradict a comfortable narrative which portrays Israel as innocent victim of terror. You can't put yourself in a Palestinian's shoes because it would be uncomfortable and would force a major rethink.
shira
(30,109 posts)If you have proof, provide it.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)zellie
(437 posts)Of course it might be one of those scam HUDNA'S but I'm willing to see.
When do the Nobel Peace Prize nominations have to be in ?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)zellie
(437 posts)Just wipes the slate clean, doesn't it?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Unless you like lots of violence, that's a good thing.
Edit: and yes, it has been much in doubt at times whether Hamas would be obeyed.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Could be can't rather than won't at this point with respect to rocket launching.
Good faith negotiating is not a hallmark of the historical relationship between Israel and Hamas.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)One can speculate about all sorts of reasons for no rockets now, I would tend towards a desire not to piss off Morsi, but the fact is there are none, and I doubt that is a result of IDF suppression or chance.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Maybe Israel actually has legitimate defensive reasons for their actions in Gaza after all.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Not particularly effectively, mind you, but still shooting. I would think if they were not disrupted then, its hard to argue they are being disrupted now.
shira
(30,109 posts)...knowing that more rockets would bring about heavy consequences.
Probably the same deal Israel made with Hezbollah (notice the north border has been quiet for years).
Hamas could have stopped the rockets years ago if it wanted to.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Hamas has split off from Iran, largely due to Syria killing an inordinate number of Sunnis and also because Iran really doesnt have the money to keep funding Hamas any more. Its worth noting that Iran was spending more than twice on Hamas and Islamic Jihad than what it was contributing to Hezbollah.
The Qataris have stepped in to fill the void, as have others. Their interests are somewhat different from Iran. They apparently want to build infrastructure in Gaza, and they would prefer that it not be blown up from time to time.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)However, I guess this nullifies for all time the argument that Hamas can't control the rockets and that is it the "righteous anger" of their citizens that is behind the attacks.
delrem
(9,688 posts)or at least put a lid on them.
The "righteous anger" of the people living in Gaza exists, and is totally justified. But that's just an emotion determined by circumstance, not a plan. The rockets, as a "plan", has got to be the stupidest ...
On the other hand, Israel's use of F-16s, etc., is totally effective. Just compare the kill ratios.