Hamas says return to peace talks a 'disaster'

[oberliner]

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- The United States has deluded the Palestinian Authority into thinking that there will be a positive outcome in negotiations with Israel, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum told Ma'an Saturday.

The senior Hamas official said the PA's return to negotiations is a "disaster" and a cover for the Israeli agenda of Judaization, settlement building and the displacement of Palestinians.

The recent breakthrough in a return to talks places Palestinian reconciliation at risk, Barhoum added, stressing that it would lead to a great loss of Palestinian rights and a "grand prize" for Israel.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=615432

[azurnoir]

1. I guess there is no over emphasizing a point huh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113444857

but do keep up the good work

[oberliner]

3. Thanks for resposting that link

As anyone who bothered to read the two pieces can tell - these are two different articles featuring completely different comments from completely different people.

It would seem that various members of Hamas are doing their best to emphasize and re-emphasize the point.

I am sure we are all hopeful that, if by some miracle a peace agreement is reached, that the Hamas leadership won't try to derail it with some of the sorts of things they have done in the past under those circumstances.

Hopefully a different Hamas member can buck the trend and speak up in support of peace. I'd be very happy to be able to post that article!

[azurnoir]

17. and what are the chances that abu Mezan will come to an agreement

that the Palestinian people themselves will support?

[oberliner]

20. Fairly sizeable

Here's hoping, in any case!

[Scootaloo]

2. Crazies gonna crazy

[oberliner]

4. But what happens in Gaza if the Israelis and Palestinians reach a peace agreement?

Would the Hamas leadership there be willing to sign on? Would they even be asked to do so? Where does Gaza figure in as far as the PA is concerned?

[Scootaloo]

5. In my opinion? That's a humongous "if"

Right now, the idea is to talk about having peace talks. The idea is both sides have preconditions to talks neither is likely to back away from, and Kerry is going to try to reframe the positions.

Now, on this subject I'm a cynic - And i've learned too much on the subject not to be. What's going to happen is that neither side will budge, and Kerry, in his role as Israel's lawyer, will try to force Palestine into acceding to the precondition demands of Israel while abandoning their own. That will fail, and then Kerry will get all solemn and tell us how the Palestinians "aren't willing to negotiate," Israel will declare "there's no one to talk to!" and the tired old cliches will continue.

Since there's no reason to think it'll reach the level of actual talks, worrying over what Hamas thinks is premature. However, that's no reason to not try - who knows, maybe, just maybe this time the US will act as an honest broker. Maybe, just maybe Zipper will get over her earlier interest in freezing things at "talking about talks." Maybe, just maybe Saeb Erekat will put something out there that just blows peoples' minds. It's all a long shot, but the potential is there, so... no reaon to not show up and see what's up.

[oberliner]

9. It is indeed

Here's hoping for a miracle.

[pelsar]

6. ask yourself.....

would you be willing to give up your beliefs for anything?

Hamas is not just a political group, they are a religious movement, they're beliefs are they're very foundation and its not about material possessions or political gain.
______________________

When your willing to give up your beliefs and join the tea party because you'll get "larger house" better schooling (that is against your core beliefs), etc then you can ponder if Hamas will do the same.

if your not willing to give up your beliefs for a "better life" why would you expect them to?

[oberliner]

10. Stranger things have happened

Anything is possible.

[pelsar]

11. the future is one of surprises....

for all we know one of the families in gaza might decide their economics are more important than hamas and take them on....(family ties are stronger than political leanings).

But asking hamas to give up their core beliefs is like asking any fundamentalist to give up their beliefs...its their identity, the very core of who they are, what they believe in....and who is asking? the west, those who are pushing for democracy, values that the hamas beliefs are fundamentally against.

[shira]

12. If only the West were pushing for western democratic reforms in Gaza....

Most don't know or don't care to be bothered.

Those who do have little to no political support anywhere.

[oberliner]

13. Fundamentalists have given up their beliefs

It happens rarely, but it does happen. Perhaps enlightenment will come - like when Yossi Gurvitz "saw the light" and stopped believing in Judaism.

[pelsar]

14. but these aren't individuals

its a movement with power. I'm not saying it can't happen but I dont see any fundamentalist group negotiating away their beliefs.

sure individuals will leave, while others join...but to remove them from power is more than an individual "seeing the light" . And like all political groups, some are there just for the jobs and will quickly leave if its no longer worth it.

but once in power, i think the only way out is what the Egyptians did and what used to happen in Turkey (until they got smart- and put their fundamentalist believers in the army, rendering the army useless as a counter to the fundamentalist take over that is now happening there).

Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc......these are single party/fundamentalist groups that reject western values......hamas is one of them and they aren't going anywhere.

to answer your original question: The Palestenians for the time being have two mini societies with different cultures, different laws: one a secular dictatorship with a more educated population and the second a religious fundamentalist one who has plans on taking over the west bank....neither is going to budge, and neither is stable

[oberliner]

15. But they are

Hamas is made up of individuals, as all movements are. They have also evolved somewhat over the years. Change is possible.

And to your last paragraph, what a hopeless way to look at the situation!

[pelsar]

16. hamas...

why do you think they have evolved? They've adapted from an opposition party to the one in control, but i dont see any change in their beliefs. Unlike Morsi, they slowly putting in the change in to the society, but no one i know has seen any change in their actual beliefs.


I dont see the situation as "hopeless" i just dont believe in the immediate horizon things will change for the better. Syrias war will continue, and have some spill over in to Lebanon, Jordan is weak and maybe soon, Egypt is a real mess and they no longer control the sinai...Abbas is dictator with a "spring" just waiting to happen and throw him out, while hamas seems to strengthening their own position.....

its not hopeless but i do believe thats a realistic view of the area.

[oberliner]

21. You answer your own question

Adapting is evolving. Also, there is not uniformity in the beliefs across membership of Hamas. Even across leadership of Hamas there seem to be some discrepancies.

[pelsar]

22. of course they're not uniform....

Last edited Mon Jul 22, 2013, 01:20 AM - Edit history (1)

no political body is, but they do have a fundamental series of beliefs that run though the organization...and i simply think it would be foolish to believe that they're religious beliefs are any less strong than any other with strong beliefs.

and public opinion is not really a factor when the belief is religious based, since they know whats best for the "unwashed masses"...i.e. the unbelievers.

the question is if you won't change your beliefs for material gain, why would you think they would?

[shaayecanaan]

18. The last time there genuinely seemed to be change in the air...

the Jewish underground responded far more forcefully than Hamas. I honestly think that if an Israeli PM attempted to withdraw from the West Bank he would meet with the same fate as Rabin did.

[oberliner]

19. Not true

Here's how Hamas responded the last time there was "change in the air":

Passover massacre

The Passover massacre was a suicide bombing carried out by Hamas at the Park Hotel in Netanya, Israel on 27 March 2002, during a Passover seder. Thirty civilians were killed in the attack and 140 were injured. It was the deadliest attack against Israelis during the Second Intifada.

Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The bomber was identified as Abdel-Basset Odeh, a 25-year-old from the nearby West Bank city of Tulkarm. Hamas claimed that the attack was specifically designed to derail momentum from a recently announced peace initiative of the Saudi Arabian government at the Beirut Summit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre#The_perpetrators

There were 47 suicide bombing attacks carried out in 2002. Hamas claimed responsibility for more than half of them.

[shaayecanaan]

23. I dont think that there was much change in the air in 2002

but granted, Hamas and the Jewish underground seem united in this instance.

[delrem]

7. I agree. Abbas hasn't the authority. It's a recipe for disaster. n/t

[oberliner]

8. Who does?

Who has the authority to negotiate for peace on behalf of the Palestinians?