Pink Floyd bassist Roger Waters...'open hater of Jews'

[King_David]

Former Pink Floyd bassist Roger Waters has fallen into a bitter race row after a leading rabbi branded him an 'open hater of Jews' Pink Floyd bassist Roger Waters in bitter race row after leading Rabbi calls him an 'open hater of Jews' over 'pig' prop he used in show
The musician, who is a vocal pro-Palestinian campaigner, came under fire last week after he floated a balloon of a giant pig emblazoned with the Star of David above the stage in Belgium.

The move sparked fury within the international Jewish community, including that of Rabbi Abraham Cooper, of the human rights group Simon Wiesenthal Center, who branded the showpiece a 'grotesque display of Jew-hatred'.

Video of the concert posted online shows the pig, also painted with dollar signs, the logo for oil conglomerate Shell and the Communist hammer and sickle symbol, drifting over the crowd during the climax of the show's finale.


'With this disgusting display Roger Waters has made it crystal clear: forget Israel, never mind "limited boycotts promoting Middle East Peace", Waters is an open hater of Jews,' Rabbi Cooper told Jewish website The Algemeiner.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384843/Pink-Floyd-bassist-Roger-Waters-called-antisemitic-Rabbi-race-row.html#ixzz2d8UM6c11
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[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. From the article.

In a functioning theocracy it is almost inevitable that the symbol of the religion becomes confused with the symbol of the state, in this case the State of Israel, a state that operates Apartheid both within its own borders and also in the territories it has occupied and colonized since 1967.

Poor Dave. Just can't get away from apartheid now can you?

[oberliner]

3. "In a functioning theocracy"

That is a pretty ignorant prepositional phrase to kick off that sentence.

And claims apartheid for Israel "within its own borders" as well.

Seriously, off the charts.

He should talk to former President Carter for clarification.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

4. Like I wrote to you yesterday, ober. No criticism of Israel will ever be valid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=575875

You'll always find something to lament about. Perhaps you and Dave could create a support group?

And claims apartheid for Israel "within its own borders" as well.

Did you just let the mask slip there, ober? Are you admitting that there is apartheid outside of Israels borders?

[Israeli]

8. doubt you will get an answer .....

look here @
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=46858

my post to him #63
and #95 to shira

same subject , they both just ignored me .
talk about burying your head in the sand

No criticism of Israel will ever be valid

and that is the problem right there R. Daneel Olivaw .... blame it all on the Palestinians ,
we are as white as snow and can do no wrong

[oberliner]

11. Doubt away!

An answer has been provided. As well as one to your question on the other thread that I missed (apologies).

Here is the quote from President Carter that I posted there for easy reference:

“I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew. And so I very carefully avoided talking about anything inside Israel.”

[Israeli]

25. you did not answer what I asked you oberliner....

instead you put your own spin on it .

[oberliner]

29. My own spin on it?

Isn't my response to a question naturally going to be my own spin?

You asked my opinion of a person's views - that's going to have my own spin.

I respect and admire former President Carter and think he makes very reasonable points about Israel.

I encourage everyone to read his book on the subject.

[Israeli]

39. then answer my question ...

" Did man of peace President Carter truly err in concluding that Israel is creating Apartheid? Did he exaggerate? "

and stop beating around the bush .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

46. To paraphrase ober.

"Criticism of Israel is definitely valid, but not if you use the term Apartheid."


And to back this up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=47151

[Scootaloo]

76. And remember for his "very careful avoidance," Carter was still demonized as an antisemite

Which is hilarious, as his book was about the most mealy, soft-spoken, hand-wringing, non-accusatory book on the subject I have ever read. Half-decent introductory material for a sixth-grader perhaps, but hardly the hardcore neonaziism that was accused of him.

One might almost get the impression that it doesn't matter what hoops you jump through, no criticism of Israel, no matter how softened and cautious, will ever be recognized as valid.

[shira]

79. Accusing Israel of apartheid is not criticism. It's a bullshit charge & demonization....

Accusing Israel of nazi policy, starving the Palestinians, etc... is also demonization.

That's why Carter was ripped.

[Scootaloo]

82. Never read his book, have you?

And frankly, someone who asserts Palestinians are child-sacrificing death cultists who control the world media doesn't get to say what is and is not acceptable discourse. Save that shit for when you're talking to your JDL trashbag friends.

The 'crime of apartheid' means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime

This not only fits Israel very well, but it fits pretty much every argument you've ever made in "defense" of Israel. Unsurprising, of course, as your usual rhetoric makes P.W. Botha look like a reasonable, well-centered person by comparison.

[King_David]

14. Lucky for us there's a few righteous Jews left

So that those ones like you can "explain " the deviant ones to the rest of the world.

Because your the only ones who "get it" within the Jewish world.

We who are not part of this elite , just do not "get" it.

See this thread here for another example where you "get" it and only in those in the elitist club you belong too do too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113447074

Thank G-D for the self righteous Jews such as Chomsky , Levy , Shulman , Hass, etc etc and a handful of other self described "post Zionists" to explain the evilness of the rest of "us to them"... Ha ha ha ha

Keep on believing

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. Even a broken clock such as yourself may be right at times.

We who are not part of this elite , just do not "get" it.

[shira]

20. I wonder why you, Waters, & your "anti-Apartheid" chums don't get....

....that there's GENUINE Apartheid going on in Lebanon vs. the Palestinian refugees there.

Why don't you "get it"?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. GENUINE Apartheid is being executed by Israel against Palestinians, but Shira just needs to

look everywhere else but right in front of her.

Poor, poor Shira. Spin away.

[shira]

31. You're pointing to bullshit while ignoring the real thing vs. Palestinians

You don't even care about a future Jew-free Apartheid Palestine.

Obviously, a phony like yourself doesn't want to "get it".

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

40. "You're pointing to bullshit..." Really?

My dear, I was pointing at you. Even a child of limited intellect could have seen that.

[shira]

47. Always a pleasure pointing out the phony concerns of Israel haters. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

54. Israel = Apartheid is not hate. It's accurate.

Run now, old hare.

[shira]

60. Your definition of apartheid could apply to any country in the world....

So unless all countries are apartheid, your accusations are meaningless.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. It applies to Israel, and that is what sticks in your craw.

Are you ready to scream that I am an anti-Semite for telling the truth?

[shira]

66. You can't even make a clear case for Israeli apartheid. You've got nothing....

...but slander while you tacitly support apartheid vs. both Palestinians and Jews in that region.

I'd say the joke's on you, but you're the joke.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. .

[King_David]

71. Not in DU

Not allowed.

But imagine if a democratic congressmen said that on DU or anywhere else...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

72. In time, dave.

Until then keep up with the charade that Israel is a victim, and that the Palestinians deserve what they get.

[King_David]

73. It can be a long lonely wait ,

The Middle East is a complete mess... And Israel is the very least mess in that neighborhood .

People without prejudice are more concerned with the hundreds of thousands of innocents dying in the neighborhood , and rightfully so .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

80. Israel is a lead contributor to the mess in its backyard.

Anybody that is not blind to reality can see that. Anybody that is honest enough will admit that.

My above statement does not condone what some Palestinians do, encourage or promote it, but I also don't cast a blind eye towards bankrupt Israeli policy while pointing at the flaws of everyone else.

The pretense that Israel is less evil than the other evil players in the region because it is a Democracy is, at face value, a fool's argument.

[King_David]

86. That's what this threads all about,

This threads all about those that believe that " Israel is a lead contributor" and is always to blame .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

88. Well, dave, when it comes to their treatment of the Palestinians

and theft of their land Israel is to blame.

I'm not going to blame the Aztecs for it. I wouldn't have the heart to do that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

92. I'm sorry dave, I missed you last reply.

Want to get something off your chest?

[Israeli]

27. I prefer the term Israeli King_David...

if you dont mind .

I'm not part of your " Jewish world "

Thank G-D for the self righteous Jews such as Chomsky , Levy , Shulman , Hass, etc etc and a handful of other self described "post Zionists" to explain the evilness of the rest of "us to them"... Ha ha ha ha

you have a problem spelling out GOD ?

Keep on believing

thanks .... I have every intention of doing so .

[King_David]

74. You can categorically state that you are not a part of " my Jewish world "

I know this BUT people and groups such as David Duke , Neo Nazi groups , Hamas and Al Quaida etc etc would beg to differ.

Read a little history , as recent as Entebbe there was a Seleksia and I don't recall them "excusing " any "post-Zionist" or
" interim Zionist" Jews or even "Orange" Jews.

As for me being "scared to spell out God"... I don't even believe in GOD but writing it like G-D is a cultural thing for any of us Golah Jews ... Whom you don't understand except for ,as you told us,Chomsky

[Israeli]

75. thats their problem not mine ...

I dont need to read about Entebbe I lived through it .... I was 25 at the time .
In fact a member of my kibbutz, and a very old and dear friend to this day, was part of the rescue mission .
My sons name is Yoni or Yonatan ... so that should give you a clue .

I don't even believe in GOD but writing it like G-D is a cultural thing for any of us Golah Jews ... Whom you don't understand

How many times do I have to say it !!!!
Your culture is NOT my culture .

and your right ....I dont understand you ..... and you so clearly dont understand us .

[King_David]

89. I never did understand those

Thinking themselves more Elite and superior than the rest of the tribe .

Wakeup call ... Your views on this matter do not represent just about any Israeli Jew except for this "elite" few.

The vast vast vast Majority of Israeli Jews do not belong to your elitist world.

Your Past Zionist or Post Zionist movement can all fit into Aroma Cafe in Tel Aviv for an annual meeting .

You speak for Israeli Jews ... ?

I think NOT

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

91. Ahhhhhh. Now we get to the nugget of truth.

You believe that you speak for Israeli Jews from your keyboard in the USA, but Israeli is just an elitist and cannot possibly speak for anybody but a select few?

Thinking themselves more Elite and superior than the rest of the tribe.

I'm not sure I can find enough dip to go with that 500lb chip on your shoulder.


Oh, I am also bookmarking your hostility towards Israeli; not because anything will come out of it but just for the comedic value alone.

[King_David]

93. OK thanks ,

Ask Pelsar if that's a common view or not.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

94. You're welcome. Any time, dave.

[Israeli]

96. yeah ...

ask Pelsar .... born in America

[King_David]

98. Where were your grandparents born?

Mine were born in Pakestine.

Sweeeeeet

[Israeli]

95. I dont consider myself as part of any tribe that you belong to King_David

I dont speak for Israeli Jews .... your religion means nada to me .
My country means everything to me ... and you haver are not my countryman .
You are American .

[King_David]

97. I'm not American and wasn't born in America

As I said my grandfather was born in Palestine and had that passport .

By your bizzarrio logic Israel is more my birthright than yours .

Thankfully your views are marginal and Radical within the Jewish State.

[King_David]

99. Unfortunately the realities of the world will make that very difficult for you

You can stamp your feet on the ground and hold your breath till you blue and get a certificate from all of us saying she is not a part of us ( gladly given )

That's what a lot of Jews did in the 1930's by the way..

BUT :

Many evil people and groups such as David Duke , Neo Nazi groups , Hamas and Al Quaida and many more in many countries etc etc would beg to differ.


Edited to add : you can even post a lawn sign on your pavement saying that your an interim Zionist or Past Zionist or Post Zionist or whatever ... But I don't think that will help either.

[shira]

18. An Israeli and a Palestinian scathed by South Africa apartheid rhetoric

The two of us, an Israeli and a Palestinian, went to South Africa recently to speak about the Middle East. For understandable reasons, South Africa is a major source for the "Israel is apartheid" accusation; it stems from the fact that many South Africans, especially blacks, relate Israel's treatment of Palestinians to their own history of racial discrimination.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/an-israeli-and-a-palestinian-scathed-by-south-africa-apartheid-rhetoric-1.428234

[oberliner]

10. Criticism of Israel is definitely valid

I was just pointing out two portions of the statement that show some ignorance. The one about apartheid within Israel's borders and the one about Israel being a theocracy.

What mask do you think is slipping exactly?

Edit to Add: In the other thread I was just asking if you thought Nazi terms were appropriate to use in the context of discussing Israel. I stand by my assertion that they are not.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

15. "Criticism of Israel is definitely valid."

I doubt that you really believe that on any significant level.

[shira]

21. Are claims of Lebanese anti-Palestinian Apartheid valid in your view? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

23. Are claims of Israeli anti-Palestinian Apartheid valid in yours?

[shira]

33. Nope, for reasons stated all over this thread. Now answer me please....

Are claims of anti-Palestinian apartheid in Lebanon valid?

How about a Jew-free Palestine? Is that a valid apartheid claim?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. Why would I want to converse with a poster who's head is buried

deep in their behind with denial?

Point everywhere else, poor Shira, except for where Israelis practice apartheid on Palestinians in Palestine.

[shira]

48. At least I'm willing to discuss what is & isn't apartheid. You fear it. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

52. You don't discuss it. You distract from it.

Israel = Apartheid.

[shira]

59. I discussed it on this thread. Look below. It's you who supports Apartheid....

You'll see the argument that Israeli settlers consist of Arabs as well......Arabs who are governed the same way as Jews in the territories.

No apartheid.

Israel treats foreign nationals differently than their own citizens, just like all other nations do.

Not that you have even a half-ass logically consistent reply to that, other than to level more slander at the Jewish state.

Now, OTOH, you intentionally blind yourself to real anti-Palestinian (Lebanon) and anti-Jewish apartheid (future Palestine that you support).

Why do you support those obvious forms of apartheid?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

62. You really are a punchline with no place to go.

[shira]

65. Means so much, coming from an apartheid supporter/apologist like yourself. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

68. Stop it...

[shira]

69. You support apartheid vs. Palestinians as well as a future Apartheid Palestine....

Own that POV of yours.

Go on...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

70. Hmmmmmmm....

Now what part of your statement is erroneous?


All of it.

Nice fail. try again.

[WCLinolVir]

83. Do you ever just dial it back a notch or are you paid by word?

[oberliner]

30. I believe it absolutely 100 percent

There is a lot to be critical of about the Israeli government and leadership that's for sure.

And it can totally be done without using any Nazi (or even Afrikaans) terminology.

[shira]

34. But it's no fun bashing Israel w/o the Nazi/Apartheid accusations. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

42. "I believe it absolutely 100 percent." Not possible with your last sentences.

And it can totally be done without using any Afrikaans terminology?


You can't believe anything 100 percent if you wish to hide from extremely valid criticisms of apartheid...which seemingly is now less of an Afrikaans definition than an Israeli one.

The spirit of Botha resides in Tel Aviv.

[King_David]

6. Interesting thread this has turned out to be. nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

17. Aside from the OP.

[Bluenorthwest]

5. Of course Waters can not even get along with his own bandmates and they sue one another and

bicker over who owns what and who has the right and who has to not sing this one and the whole time he knows how to make world fucking peace. What a fuck head.
Those who want to see peace and justice should be able to get along with their own collaborators for more than twenty minutes without having an ego spasm.
Roger Waters is a twit.

[Mopar151]

7. The pig (sans logos) is an icon to Floyd fans

And hard-righties, all over the world, become apoplectic of anything that they can interpret as criticisim.

Yes, I think Roger Waters is an egotistical twit. That alone does'nt make him wrong.

[shira]

19. The Star of David on a pig is a slam against all Jews....

He'd have an excuse if were an Israeli flag.

The ADL recently wrote a scathing open letter to Rogers:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abraham-h-foxman/an-open-letter-to-roger-w_b_3805206.html

[azurnoir]

61. why didn't you pst an excerpt from the letter?

just wondering

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. Probably because she can't defend it: like all her rants.

It's easier to scream racism and *anti-Semitism than actually face the fact that Israel is an Apartheid state.

*Does this even work any longer? Just screaming it over and over doesn't make it true and dilutes the term altogether.

Sure there are anti-Semites, and there are also those who are labeled as such for political ends.

[azurnoir]

55. here is what the ADL said about the pig balloon the letter linked to is not about the balloon

The Jewish watchdog Anti-Defamation League has defended British rock star Roger Waters, a critic of Israel, after he released a pig-shaped balloon decorated with a Star of David over his stage performance of The Wall.

The stunt, performed at a show in Belgium, angered other Jewish organisations including the Simon Wiesenthal Centre who called Waters - a well-known activist in the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement against Israel - "an open hater of Jews".

But the Anti-Defamation League said that the pig was not new and in context was not anti-Semitic.

"This is the same thing he's been doing for years," said Todd Gutnick, director of media relations. "We believe there's no anti-Semitic intent here in the use of the Star of David symbol."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/494580/20130725/roger-waters-star-david-pig-baloon-antisemitic.htm

[Alamuti Lotus]

9. Great musician, remarkable showman--shrill heckling from the peanut gallery notwithstanding *nt

[oberliner]

12. How is that relevant?

Would it matter if he was a poor musician and showman?

[Alamuti Lotus]

13. On some level, that was mostly a vehicle for me belting out the phrase "peanut gallery" again

I had a longer posting originally in mind, but the energy evaporated and those skeletal bits remained for the aforementioned reasons. Character length limitations in the title prevented some appending of "adept commentary" in there. The praise of his astounding strength as an artist was a commentary on those who reflexively impugn him otherwise at the moment.

[oberliner]

32. Gotcha

Just as an aside, I take it you see no cause for objection to his putting the Star of David on the giant pig in his stage show?

[shira]

22. Waters is silent about Lebanese Apartheid vs. Palestinians there.....

So are you.

Are you guys just shills for the Lebanese government?

[Scootaloo]

77. And you're silent about it as well

At least, when you're not either exploiting them in order to deflect from Israel, or defending Israel's identical policy towards those refugees (to say nothing of your defense of making them refugees in the first place)
Frankly Shira, your crude attempt to reinvent "What about Tibet!?" is far more embarrassing than your actual use of the "what about Tibet?!" argument... and that one involved a demand for delivering goods by boat to Tibet.

[shira]

78. It's because I don't pretend like you to have the greatest of compassion for Palestinians.....

You and yours show phony concern for Palestinians and it's your opponents here who remind you that your advocacy is nothing but a sham.

This is how we play the game here.

You constantly tell us we're racist illiberals who hate everyone, including Palestinians (without a shred of evidence) while we remind you of how fake your concern is for the Palestinians, who you only show concern for if Israel can be bashed (otherwise, you couldn't care less for them).

[Scootaloo]

81. Now wait a second...

You constantly tell us we're racist illiberals who hate everyone, including Palestinians (without a shred of evidence)

Didn't you call Palestinians death cultists who sacrifice their own children just a few days ago? Why, yes, you did.

Mind, this is the very same thread where I pointed out (again) your utter reliance on neoconservative sources, leading you to back up and pretend you don't have a problem with any sources.

And I've lost count of the many countries you've labeled as being inherently antisemitic (Poland, Russia, the Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland, the UK, to say nothing of every place that practices Islam in the world). In addition to your rage directed towards the UN. And liberals. And NGO's. And Jews who disagree with you (to the point where you defend antisemitic attacks against say, Richard Goldstone.) Incidentally your only argument for anything is to accuse your opponents of being antisemites. Really, that's all you've got, so that's another layer of irrational stupid hatred from you.

Characterizing you as a racist illiberal who hates everyone (especially Palestinians) is actually pretty accurate.

Now again. Let me know when you've got something interesting to say.

[shira]

84. You're embellishing again....

Didn't you call Palestinians death cultists who sacrifice their own children just a few days ago? Why, yes, you did.

How else would you describe the PLO, Hamas, or Islamic Jihad other than death cultists? They encourage, support, praise, and glorify Palestinian child sacrifice (martyrdom) vs. the hated Jews. Oh wait......you think I believe all Palestinians are like that, right? And that's what makes me racist? Well then what do we call it when you deny any of this is happening? An apologist, supporter, defender? I'm curious...

Mind, this is the very same thread where I pointed out (again) your utter reliance on neoconservative sources, leading you to back up and pretend you don't have a problem with any sources.

I don't think you know what a neo-con is to tell the truth. The neo-cons are the ones who called for elections in Gaza 2005, in Egypt 2011, support for the elected Muslim Brotherhood & Hamas. Neo-cons believe an election makes for a democracy. I don't think you'll find anyone who is pro-Israel here at DU's I/P dungeon for that. Seems all our opponents (the anti-zios) are the neo-cons here.

Actually, your sources are megaphones for far rightwing, conservative fascist Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and PLO views. You're one to talk.

And I've lost count of the many countries you've labeled as being inherently antisemitic (Poland, Russia, the Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland, the UK, to say nothing of every place that practices Islam in the world). In addition to your rage directed towards the UN. And liberals. And NGO's. And Jews who disagree with you (to the point where you defend antisemitic attacks against say, Richard Goldstone.) Incidentally your only argument for anything is to accuse your opponents of being antisemites. Really, that's all you've got, so that's another layer of irrational stupid hatred from you.

Uhhh, no. But we can discuss all this case-by-case if you really want to.

I find it hilarious that you're hypocritically accusing me of what you do here (accusing your opponents constantly of racism) all the time, constantly.

Characterizing you as a racist illiberal who hates everyone (especially Palestinians) is actually pretty accurate.

See? You did it again. It's pretty much all you do.

[Scootaloo]

85. I rest my case

Thanks for helping out with it. I just hope that you're not a lawyer, 'cause your clients would be very fucked.

[shira]

87. You were just embellishing, were called out for your bullshit & now you rest your case?

Amazing.

You really do equate all Palestinians with their leadership. Therefore, any criticism of their leadership is an indictment vs. all Palestinians in your view.

Thus, all criticism of Palestinians (their leadership) is racist.

Loving the logic there.

Loving it every bit as much as your neo-con accusations (when it's you guys towing the neo-con line here).

[Scootaloo]

100. Well, you weren't criticizing their leadership, Shira.

You were taking a senile scumbag who's been dead for seven years and using him to define the mindset of all Palestinians. When called on that nonsense, you tried to pin your own argument on me, which is even more laughable than your original attempt. You labeled all Palestinians as child-murdering death cultists, and used Arafat as the definitive example, asserting that Palestinians all believed as he did (and frankly I don't think even he went to the depths you're accusing)

You spent your last post basically flailing all over the place in an apoplectic fit after having it pointed out you're a neoconservative racist hatemonger. To contest this you asseted that calling for elections is awful, that every source you disagree with is a megaphone for terrorist organizations (after claiming you don't have a problem with nay sources, interestingly!) and again trying to accuse someone of racism for pointing our the hatred you direct at pretty much every single human being on earth who doesn't share your peculiar beliefs.

When my case was that you are a racist illiberal hatebag.

So yeah. I rest my case, and again thank you for your aid.

Give me a call if you ever have something interesting to say.

[shira]

101. That's exactly what I was doing. Abbas is the same when it comes....

...to sacrificing children, encouragin, supporting, praising, and glorifying their "martyrdom" missions. I can show you at least a dozen PMW videos clearly showing the PA calling for what Arafat did a decade ago.

Of course you're not at all interested in that. You're still in denial about it and don't want to discuss it rationally, which goes to show you could care less about Palestinian children. You have no compassion or concern for them, as all you have and all you're about is hate for Israel.

Point proven. Again.

Neo-cons have a noble goal of getting other nations to become democracies, and it appears you share the same goal. I have no problem with that goal either, except in its execution. You and the neo-cons believe that an election makes for democracy when it's actually MUCH more than that (like civil liberties, equal rights, secularism, separation of powers). Israelis are generally against the neo-con agenda (which you, John McCain, and Lindsey Graham support). Nice idea but poorly executed.

Finally, yes, some sources are megaphones for terror orgs. It doesn't mean they're 100% wrong all the time. No sources are 100% wrong 100% of the time. So long as they're able to separate fact from opinion/fiction, but all sources (even the best) have to be viewed skeptically. Some more (or WAY more) than others.

[OmahaBlueDog]

102. Hi Shira & Scootaloo. Non-Combatant here.

I just got off a jury for a post up-thread. I'd just like to say to both of you that maybe it's time to just walk away from this one.

Give peace a chance.

[Scootaloo]

103. Oh don't worry.

I know better than to tell people what I really feel

[OmahaBlueDog]

104. Equestria would be proud of you!

(it's a "My Little Pony" reference, for those scratching their heads)

[Scootaloo]

105. I love and tolerate the shit out of people!

[JI7]

26. he shouldn't have put the star of david on the pig

[bravenak]

28. Why the star on David on a pig?

I'm ignorant. Is it because Jewish people don't eat pork? Or is he saying they're pigs?
Okay I re read it.
Pig, dollar signs, Star of David. Is this another one of those stupid things where people accuse Jews of having all the money?
How classy.

[shira]

35. We Jews are assured it's only anti-Israel so it's all cool. n/t

[bravenak]

37. I can't believe I finally agree with you. But i do. That some foulness right there.

Kinda racist I think. The pig thing let me know it was not kosher. ( I made a joke!)
I had a Internet argument with some guy the other day and he blamed Jews for everything from the financial crisis to George RR Martin making the golden haired Lannisters evil ( he called them aryans) and the Starks the good guys. Apparently in his mind the Starks are Jews. I properly made fun of him and gave him my pity. I never realized that there were so many of these creeps running around. Ignorance is bliss.
Not that I'm comparing the two men but both have issues. And I don't think this stunt went over very well. He embarrassed himself.

[Laelth]

36. The pig is a reference to an album cover, an album, and a specific couple of songs.

"Pigs" is a song on Pink Floyd's album, "Animals." That, in turn, is an allusion to Orwell's "Animal Farm," in which the pigs are exploitative capitalists. The "flying pig" is a reference to the song called "Pigs on the Wing" which also appears (with a reprise) on "Animals." The album was first released in 1977. It's cover features a flying pig watching over an old industrial facility.

This is the first time I have ever heard of a connection between the pig and either Israel or Judaism. Roger Waters is a dedicated liberal. I hate to see him bashed, but we are all susceptible to occasional lapses of judgment, and that's what this stunt appears to have been.

-Laelth

[bravenak]

38. Dang I guess the album was before my time. I was born in the time of cassette tapes.

Maybe he just did something stupid he'll regret later it just seems wrong. If its from his album cool, but putting the Star of David on it makes it distasteful. I'm an atheist and I leave people's religious symbols alone, they tend to get offended. He could find another way to protest without offending a whole religion/race of people.
I won't bash him. People make mistakes.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

43. Perhaps his criticism is valid.

If he also added the Stars and Stripes or Union Jack would it be a political statement?

I'm an atheist and I leave people's religious symbols alone...

Alright. Israel also uses a religious symbol on their flag.


Perhaps a Magen David that was made out of barbed wire would be more appropriate.


I don't see it as a mistake. Israel is, and has been for many years now, consuming what remains of Palestinian territory. Israel is also planning on moving another half million Israelis onto Palestinian territory.

Proponents of Israel willfully ignore that Israel has been waging a campaign of conquest and colonization of a people that they claim are just Arabs and can go live some place else. Israel has systematically dismantled the Palestinian state, and it has interests to consume as much of it as it can.

But if you protest this you are accused by the screamers of being an anti-Semite.

[bravenak]

44. I have definitely been called an anti Semite, as I am against the occupation and colonization

Of Palestine. I'm for BDS. I find that religious people can be very possessive and serious about their symbols and such so I leave it alone. I can see how some may be offended by the use of the symbol on a pig. Just like you can't draw a picture of Mohammed or somebody might try to shoot you.
My BFF's dad is an actor and does these shows in California in Farsi, where he dresses up like some religious leader of Iran and makes fun of him. When he went on a trip to England some fools stabbed him. He knew they had a hit out on him but he never thought they would actually stab him in London.
As for the singer, maybe he doesn't know why it's offensive to them. I'm not trying to dog him out.
But he shouldn't pick on one religion exclusively, pick on all of them like I do at home. Especially Scientology.
I've said before that the Occupation will be the cause of Israel's downfall. You can't have first and second class citizens ( or non citizens) without there being conflict and war. People need self governance, freedom of movement, and all of those other inalienable rights we think we have.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. Waters is not picking on one religion exclusively when he is

criticizing the state of Israel for their practice of Apartheid. The Magen David that was used on the Pink Floyd piggy appears to be the same one used on the flag of Israel.

There is nothing wrong with criticism (or making fun) of Iran's fekked-up theocrats, the Catholic Church's sex scandals (i.e rape of children) or Israel's acts of land theft and Apartheid (let's not also forget murder, torture and two sets of laws: one for them and one for Palestinians). Period.

If any of the above don't like it then perhaps they should stop lying to the world and themselves about what they really are and accept their crimes against humanity. Period.

It doesn't mean that they can get offended and put out a hit on others, scream anti-Catholic or anti-Semite and believe that the screams cover their offenses against others.

They are the offending parties, and if they don't like the criticism then fekking change.


So in this case that is why the screamers choose to label Waters, you, me or anybody else that is critical of an Apartheid regime as anti-Semites. They believe that screaming keeps them in the victim column when they are in actuality the victimizers now.

[Dick Dastardly]

49. Waters use of the Star of David is pretty disgusting.

While the Star of David does have some religous connotations, it is not a religous symbol but is a symbol of the Jewish people and or nation as a whole including both secular and religous.

Jews are not just a religion but a people, a nation and a culture as well. Using the symbol as Waters did is a dispersion against all Jews in the classic blood libels of Jews being greedy and having all the money just as you correctly assumed it meant in your prior post.



The Star of David is a six-pointed star made up of two triangles superimposed over each other. In Judaism it is often called the Magen David, which means the "shield of David" in Hebrew. It doesn’t have any religious significance in Judaism but it is one of the symbols most commonly associated with the Jewish people. Many Jews wear jewelry with the Star of David as part of the design and the flag of Israel has a blue Star of David in the center. In many ways it has come to be a symbol of unity.

More
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/starofdavid.htm



he Star of David, known in Hebrew as the Shield of David or Magen David (Hebrew מָגֵן דָּוִד; Biblical Hebrew Māḡēn Dāwīḏ [maːˈɣeːn daːˈwiːð], Tiberian [mɔˈɣen dɔˈvið], Modern Hebrew [maˈɡen daˈvid], Ashkenazi Hebrew and Yiddish Mogein Dovid [ˈmɔɡeɪn ˈdɔvid] or Mogen Dovid), is a generally recognized symbol of Jewish identity and Judaism

Clip
As a symbol of Judaism
In the 17th century, the Shield of David as the hexagram began to represent the Jewish community generally, when the Jewish quarter of Vienna was formally distinguished from the rest of the city by a boundary stone having the hexagram on one side and the Christian cross on the other. By the 18th century, the Shield appeared to represent the Jewish people in both secular (politics) and religious (synagogue) contexts. The Star of David can be found on the tombstones of religious Jews in Europe since the 18th century.


Following Jewish emancipation after the French revolution, Jewish communities chose the Star of David to represent themselves, comparable to the cross used by most Christians.[citation needed] Then in the 19th century, it began to signify the Jewish people internationally, when the early Zionist movement adopted it as the symbol of the Jewish people, after the Dreyfus affair in France in the 19th century. From here, other Jewish community organizations adopted it too.
More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David

[bravenak]

50. So it is a very important cultural symbol.

And pork is forbidden. To put them together like that may not be noticed by me, but would be noticed by a Jewish person as an attack. Like rubbing bacon on a Koran?
He should stop doing that. The dollar signs, the star, the pig, it looks bad when you put it together.

[David__77]

51. The inclusion of both the capitalist and communist imagery makes this clearly anti-Semitic.

Classically anti-Semitic, since of course those types ascribed both plutocracy and Bolshevism to Jewry. Haven't seen that creep up too much except among the outright national-socialist forces.

[DontTreadOnMe]

57. I am taking it you have never even heard of Roger Waters, Pink Floyd or any of the lyrics.

just a knee jerk reaction to something you don't understand.

[David__77]

58. If there is some other meaning, it is a highly unfortunate coincidence, and hard to believe.

For people who are familiar with anti-Semitic imagery, it has more than just a couple components going on. I'd think if the people involved had such knowledge, they would have avoided this.

[bunnies]

53. Roger Waters is not a fan of any religion.

on edit:
Holy shit. I didnt see the underside of this latest pig...

"If I had my way I'd have all of you shot"

[DontTreadOnMe]

56. Maybe those not familiar with the song "Pigs on the Wings", and the entire "Animals" LP and

"The Wall" should do some research first about what Roger Waters, and what he means when he uses the flying pig over an audience.

Pink Floyd and their solo tours have been flying the "pig" for almost 40 years, each tour usually has different themes or icons placed on the pig. Hint: It has nothing to do with pork.

"If you didn't care what happened to me,
And I didn't care for you,
We would zig zag our way through the boredom and pain,
Occasionally glancing up through the rain
Wondering which of the buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing."