Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumCabinet OK's Razing Bedouin Towns To Build Jewish Settlement In Their Place
After being expelled and relocated in the 1950s, the residents of Umm al-Hiran are about to lose their homes once again this time to make way for a Jewish national-religious settlement.The Israeli government on Sunday made one of its most outrageous decisions in recent years (and there is no shortage of those, as you know). The cabinet held a special session in Sde Boker the Kibbutz in which David Ben-Gurion is buried to approve plans to build a new Jewish town (along with several others all for Jews) in the northeast region of the Negev desert.
The symbolism of meeting at Sde Boker is clear: Ben-Gurion believed that the Negev is Zionisms final frontier, and all Jewish pioneering effort should take place there.
There is no better example of how Zionism as a state ideology represents, in practice, the ongoing dispossession of Palestinians. Two Bedouin-Palestinian villages, Umm al-Hiran and Atir (where members of the Al-Qiaan tribe live), are the location where the kibbutz is planned.
Last year, Lia Tarachansky of the Real News produced a comprehensive video report about Umm al-Hiran and the Israeli governments plans for it:
MORE...
http://972mag.com/government-to-confirm-destruction-of-bedouin-village-jewish-town-will-be-built-on-site/81638/
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)---
Despite the fact that it was the state who told the Al-Qiaan tribe where to move, the new villages were never made part of a zoning plan, and their residents still lack basic infrastructure like water and electricity. The government is finally deciding to build a proper settlement there but not for the Palestinian Bedouin (who are citizens of Israel, some of whom even served in the IDF).
In remarks at the start of the cabinet meeting, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke about the new Jewish towns but did not mention the Bedouin who will be displaced to make room for them. The plan, he said, will expedite the development of the entire Negev, which Israels first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, very much wanted to do.
---
The Bedouin residents of Umm al-Hiran will be pushed to the township of Hura, one of the poorest cities in the country, according to the socio-economic index of towns and municipalities. I suppose the government believes that things are so bad in Hura that its residents wont mind another 500 refugees.
Apartheid, pure and simple.
One wonders how this latest insult to Palestinians will be spun like a top in order to justify erasing their presence from Umm al-Hiran.
But ya know, somebody else claims to have lived there two-thousand years ago so its only fair.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Is that correct?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And the Bedouin are, themselves, Israelis.
Even if it's inaccurate - and I think we all know that's probably not the case - it's still an utterly reprehensible move. Expelling a community, in order to put a preferred community on the same site? What the fuck.
You want to come up with a defense for it, Oberliner? I'm honestly curious to see where you'll go. SinceIsrel's building a town in the same spot, the whole "preserving the land" argument is gone, so what's that leave?
delrem
(9,688 posts)There's got to be something wrong with the entire project and of the planning that the project is part, don't you think?
Doesn't there have to be a reassessment?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Right? How is this not apartheid?
delrem
(9,688 posts)The 'legality' of it is built into the deep structure of Israel's founding law -- and to the Zionist mind (and in Israel's law) to work in any way to counter that law is to work for the destruction of Israel. That's the bottom line.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you can play all kinds of games with your "zionism = racism" but what you can't get around (unless you want to make up it) is that its illegal in israel ......
and thats the bottom line
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I find it all very strange indeed.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its just the law
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That doesn't make sense to me. Sounds bad. Why tear down people's homes anyway? What's up with that?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)thats his world view, but he doesn't make the laws, and the law is clear.
The bedouin in many places are basically living on state land, with no sewer, no roads, no schools, no lighting, no running water (dogs that roam freely). There are a few "Bedoiuin towns but not enough, plus they have developed a "tradition" of just making their home wherever they feel like it (they are no longer nomads), which no jew, druze, christian,is allowed to do....
so the state is exercising its rights, to develop standard housing on state land. Given the political pressure on the State, they wont be "homeless" but will have options as has happened in the past.
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)its just something that is very noticable when one enters them.....hence i mentioned it. I gather you don't like the description, so perhaps its time you came to over here and see for yourself?
delrem
(9,688 posts)so that's not saying much for your veridicality.
You don't like dogs, pelsar? Or is it just Bedouin?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so please explain how your inferring that I been inside bedouin settlements:
bent on enforcing dispossession
i don't like dogs
i don't like bediouin
please be precise in your explanations and how you've come across this conclusion, i'm sure this will be a fascinating look at how you've come to various beliefs:
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)come on....lets see some of that "internet courage of yours"....you've made an accusation, now try to back it up
(you'll note the word was corrected)
delrem
(9,688 posts)Do you have a problem with evicting Bedouin communities (twice) to make room for Jews?
Or do you just have a problem with how the Bedouin allow their dogs to roam free?
It's your point to make, pelsar. not mine.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if i don't like Bedouin
or if I don't like dogs....
and that i "enters them" (sic) as an IDF guy bent on enforcing the dispossession of the Bedouin,
and why you assume i have disposed Bedouiin?
delrem
(9,688 posts)which "justifies" the eviction of the Bedouin in favor of new purely-Jewish communities, using phrases that refer to dogs.
hmmm?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so explaining the law and describing the environment makes me a racist (i assume that is what your trying to say)
gosh i'm sorry i didn't know certain word combinations and facts are "forbidden"....i'll have to find that software that warns me about it so that next time i'll know how your PC mind works..and will ignore it.
_____
fact: the bedouin villages are in fact illegal and israeli laws forbid discrimination and lots of dogs run around freely in the bedouin villages..but just for fun so you can really get in to the racist thing:
did you know:
a lot of their homes have satellite dishes on their tin roofs
some have brand new pickup trucks as well
they don't pay any city taxes (no city)
they're kids work when they're very young and they have lots of kids
they have high unemployment (must be because they're all lazy or just busy making kids)
smuggling from egypt is part of the livelihood of many
would you like some more?...I'm really into the racist thing (must be because I'm a zionist, don't u agree?)
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)just do so...i don't speak "PC" and don't know the proper word combinations: perhaps you can help me out with the following,which are non racist and which are?
arabs usually don't have dogs as pets
jewish israelis have more "gardens" than arab israelis
many jews have dogs a pets
many christians have gold fish, but many times flush them down the toilet when they die
Some Bedoiun have camels
Druze and jews have no camels and camels can be dangerous on Roads
Cats run around freely in jewish communities but they tie up their dogs, Bedouin communities don't tie up the cats nor the dogs
Haridim don't have any pets, but lots of children
will you grade them for me 1 -10 on the level on racist statements? i assume you do want me to learn to speak your PC language correct?
delrem
(9,688 posts)You should get out more - and try to quit accusing people of all kinds of crimes... shee, talk about sensitive about yourself, insensitive about others.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)or was that not your point? You were not clear, so i had to guess ...perhaps you would like to clarify what your actually trying to say in stead of talking in circles.
just "spit it out"
and to clarify the matter..i definitely do NOT believe in PC talk and this ultra sensitivity to 'others" (it tends to make communication about facts and the real environment rather difficult)
and in case you missed it, I'm making fun of the way you interpret putting the words dogs and Bediouin in the same paragraph to mean something "sinister"
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)some kind of code to mean something else?
you really should lay off the PC talk and just say whats on your mind, i think when you comments were "fuk u", you were at least being honest and straight forward, now you just being confusing
Do what you want, feel free, just don't expect me not to reply to posts that are not factual
delrem
(9,688 posts)My statements are straightforward. It's you who listen to the demons in your own head explain how to "interpret" them, then make accusations on that basis.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)commenting that my description of the Bedouin villages that have dogs run around is some kind of racist statement...or so i understood (you don't like stating things very clearly)
so since i don't have a demons in my head, i figured it was another one of your accusations,..since i have no idea what that means.
perhaps you would like to write it clearly what these demons are, as i have no idea how you interpret things, call it accepting multiculturalism...
delrem
(9,688 posts)I didn't think so.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I don't speak "progressive" or canadian" or buzz words or PC or whatever language your writing. What is clear and it becomes clearer more an more are two strong traits in your writing:
no patience/ tolerrence for those who either disagree with your or don't comprehend your point of view. This colonialisitic trait shows up more and more. What it does not show is any greater intelligence or knowledge.
A disdain for others..those not like you. This trait, this "looking down" is rather ironic since you write about places you've never been, you write about thinks you have little experience in and apparently refuse to accept information from those that your disdain. What we call in english a very narrow and bigoted mind.
at any rate, you've improved and one should note that you've stopped calling me names directly...i'm assuming one of your peers explained you to about anger management or they took you outside to see the real world...., so congrats on that.
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)didn't you claim we're all on ignore?...even that you can't even do?
delrem
(9,688 posts)Is some demon forcing you to post your "interpretations"?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)that you believe that everyone all over the world sees things as you do, and if they don't they are not worthy of you (excuse the pop psychology) is clear.
your the one who gets upset and post emotionally laden posts, short, but emotional. In my world, your little postings are amusing at best. Your nothing more than an opening for me to see how others think, a cultural experiment of 'the other." A new character to "play with."
i like your replys.....its a game, to see what kind of post you'll be writing:
1) the nonsensical dismissive post
2) the reply post
3) the pseudo intellectual post based on zionism = racism
delrem
(9,688 posts)I apologize for being such a central character in your imagination.
Do you think it's possible that your "interpretations" of me, the "interpretations" that you've been scolding me with, are not what *I'm* about, but about what your demons are about?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i have no idea what these demons are that you seem to be on a "roll" with.
but you are not a "central character"....you have to "get over yourself"
delrem
(9,688 posts)Of course I know that's true.
Your demons are the "central characters" in your diatribes.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)The Israeli govt moved them there in the '50's....
pelsar
(12,283 posts)in that particular instance they were moved there, i was writing about the more general aspect of the hundreds of bedoiun home that "dot the negev"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Since they are already there? That should be looked at as a possibility.
And do you ever wish Netanyahu would pipe down? Does he represent the views of most Israeli people?
I have never thought that he does, but I wonder about it sometimes.
Is Israel stuck with a leader who is not representing the people?
I tend to believe that most Israelis that I have met seem more reasonable and kind.
Maybe it's time for some changes in government. We are having problems with our house of reps not representing the people very well and it is hard to vote certain people out of office.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I don't know the specifics, the politics involved in this particular one.
Netanyhu is an astute politician...and was elected twice, Like in the states and democracies everywhere, politics go right and then left and back to right and back to left and we have a very strong entrenched elite here.....just normal democracy
first somethings about the player not mentioned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund#Leasing_policy_controversy
and it's role in this
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/the-huffington-post-some-things-never-change-the-prawer-plan-and-the-l
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:04 AM - Edit history (2)
in a different thread you made it very very very clear that the internal politics of a country is "none of your business"...remember? You don't have the paternalistic, colonialistic attitude that gives you the right to tell some other country "how to govern"
I would think you should want to add to your post that in fact whatever the JNF in cahoots with the israeli govt does to its own citizens is simply none of any body's business....you made that very clear in that post of yours.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)if I remember you were laying pout requirements and needed guarantees before the Palestinians could have a state all of which were far more rigorous than any I remember in recent history
besides I was not telling anyone "how to govern" I pointing out the facts behind this story sorry if you would rather those things remain hidden
pelsar
(12,283 posts)and why do you think that...please explain clearly, why i am against, as per your opinion here, freedom of the press
and this is your quote from the previous quote
...would you let them do this to themselves" and the answer is yes
so if i understand you still believe, that what israel is doing to its population is israels business and no one should be telling israel how to govern
_______
this does require a comment: btw, though this belongs on the other topic
needed guarantees before the Palestinians could have a state all of which were far more rigorous than any I remember in recent history
why are you so against democracy?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)about my posting additional info on the Prawer Plan?
and oh I am not against democracy
pelsar
(12,283 posts)where do you see a complaint?
____________
and since you have no objections to creation of a non democratic state...apparently if your not against democracy (as you claim) you are definitely against civil rights, freedom of speach. etc for the individual
why else would you be promottingthe formation of such a state?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)really I can not answer what is to be honest bull puckey
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you are clearly in favor of a Palestenians state, where the present leaders and polls are anti democratic and clearly will make such a state a dictatorship. This is not a secret.
and you apparently don't have a problem with this....perhaps you would like to explain to me using simply english, how you can be pro civil rights, and yet promote a new country that will in fact be anti civil rights?
and if your telling me "thats what the people want' what happens when they no longer "want it"?....like the next generation?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Plan which you now deny, given that and the fact that I already explained myself to you and you chose to twist it around to suit your own needs why bother
here is that post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113450998#post29
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i happen to like freedom of the press and the exposure it provides to a govt.
i was just curious as to one who promotes the concept that every state should govern as they see fit, without outside interference since it might be construed as 'colonialist" and you appear to believe that israels internal affairs should infact be "interfered with".
so i was just wondering about that...why are you promoting israels "warts" if its none of anybodies business?
and in fact I've never ever seen you post anything to that affect when it comes to israels internal affairs...so do you believe that what israel does to its citizens i non of anybodies business?...just looking to clarify it, in real clear english
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I do understand why though, weren't you saying up thread that Israeli law prevents exactly what Israeli law allows the JNF to do?
delrem
(9,688 posts)He doesn't seem to understand the value of consistency.
Also, I've never known him to actually acknowledge a point made - whether in discussions with Ken Burch, you, me, scootaloo, whoever that's not on team hasbara. In lieu of that pelsar "interprets" words in ways most suitable for attacking the person/character, and he *cannot* distinguish his interpretations from reality.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)then i can understand..use dictionary definitions, this is part of communicating using a common base
and since you mentioned it..i easily acknowledge the warts of israel and in fact i detest the concept of a "utopia" and do not want your version or anybodies elses version of a "perfect society' hence the warts and injustices are an integral part of the imperfect society, that i prefer to live in.
but i suspect you have no idea what all of that means..
delrem
(9,688 posts)I think you should tackle that devil, pelsar. Or get a new choreographer.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you apparently have a very very very narrow view of the world, with an even narrower understanding of the different worlds cultures....
have you ever and i mean ever left your cozy environment for a strange and foreign one, where you didn't understand the culture, the language the people? ever?...anything?..because you desperately need some cultural education.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)in fact israeli law does prevent what the JNF has in their charter....buts that obvious to anyone who understands that the State makes the laws. Of course you have made it clear before that you don't believe certain groups with certain genes have to follow state laws.....you do remember this of course.
i think you should post everything you want...just want an explanation as to why, given your philosophy, as i see a contradiction...... care to answer this time?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well okay then the Bedouin will be allowed to stay in their present homes?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)is there something in the question that you cannot answer? this is like the 4th time i'm asking. Perhaps just say, your never going to answer it...
so i'll try again:
you've made it clear that what a country does to its own citizens is none of anybodies business, outside of that country, so why are you so interested in israels internal problems and why bring them up publicly? since, and i repeat, according to you, its nobodies business?
answer that and as an israeli citizen i'll explain to you the inner workings of israeli society and govt
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)years now ans once again with the claims that i said something i didn't
pelsar
(12,283 posts)as far as i understand your answer consists of "what am i trying to hide the info, or why don't i want to publicized". Well as a strong advocate of the free press and free speech without any hindrance, infact i do want that stuff publicized, and talked about and fixed.
as a believer of "all politicians lie" as per their profession, they are not to be trusted to do the right thing without public pressure, i want everything talked about....
BUT....you are an advocate of "each country should do what it wants to its own citizens and its none of anybodies business" that you made very clear since it strikes you as paternalistic and colonialistic.
so the question is WHY do YOU, publish the internal problems of israel as to its own citizens?....this is a personal question. Obviously if you don't want to explain your personal reasons, that more than reasonable, I'm just asking how you justify the apparent contradiction.
but here is the basis for your claims that i am antidemocratic- based on your statements that the Palestinians should not be allowed a state unless they can guarantee a government that satisfies you, it was an interesting exchange to say the least
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50831
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 07:25 AM - Edit history (1)
so it probably best to just ask directly, hence i am asking again.....
______
as since its my life on the line, my kids, my family, so yes i do believe my govt should definitely have a say in the type of govt that is developed ...and if i had the power, yes again, they would have to satisfy my minimal demands for a govt that protects the civil rights of its citizens, as would all up and coming countries.
you obviously are against such a principle and put civil rights as a secondary issue (if at all) and are more concerned with nationalism as far as I understand. (reminds me of the nationalism we saw in kosvo...)
i define that as being anti democratic
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)deny civil rights to Palestinians but not for the Palestinians to do it to themselves-got it
pelsar
(12,283 posts)and i will answer, you, but first......i've now been asking over 5x and you have simply refused to answer....i request either answer or say you wont answer
if you would like, shall i repeat the question?
Mosby
(16,310 posts)Recognizing that the Bedouin of the Negev need assistance, the government of Israel created a comprehensive policy aimed at improving their economic, social and living conditions, as well as resolving long-standing land issues. This new policy constitutes a major step forward towards integrating the Bedouin more fully into Israel's multicultural society, while still preserving their unique culture and heritage.
-snip-
To this end, Israel has allocated approximately 2.2 billion dollars (8 billion shekels), including over 330 million dollars (1.2 billion shekels) for specific economic and social development projects.
This January 2013 policy - named after then-minister Ze'ev Binyamin (Benny) Begin - is designed to solve a wide range of problems affecting the Bedouin population. Among the numerous initiatives that have begun or are planned are the expansion of technological and adult education, the development of industrial centers, the establishment of employment guidance centers, assistance in strengthening Bedouin local governments, improvements to the transportation system, centers of excellence for students and support for Bedouin women who wish to work or start businesses.
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Issues/Pages/The-Bedouin-in-the-Negev-and-the-Begin-Plan-4-Nov-2013.aspx
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)supposed to further US interests? You know like freedom, and justice, and equality under the law...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Egypt, for instance.
Saudi Arabia is our wallet in the middle east, Israel is our brass knuckles.
Freedom, justice, equality, oh man, in US foreign policy, are you KIDDING? We would make Rome go "Fuck guys, take it easy!"
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)in the 1950s. Thats what makes Israel's behaviour in this context especially heinous.
delrem
(9,688 posts)there's been *no* social evolution under Zionist government rule in all that time, even when it's clearly obvious to anyone of sound mind that ... something's not right? That's how I read it.
I read it that the overwhelming problem, or cause of the I/P war, is the Fundamentalist Zionist Law that defines (an explicitly expansionist) Israel to be a Jewish state, one where there is a Jewish majority. That law makes every conversation with a Fundamentalist Zionist be somehow about demographics, degenerating into common slander.