Abbas: Palestinian peace talks team resigns

[Jefferson23]

* The dumb ass, Abbas, speaks.


Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said on Wednesday his peace negotiators had resigned over the lack of progress in U.S.-brokered peace talks clouded by Israeli settlement building.

The development would mark a new low point for the talks with Israel that resumed in July and which officials from both sides have said have made little headway.

In an interview with Egyptian CBC television, Abbas suggested the negotiations would continue even if the Palestinian delegation stuck to its decision.

"Either we can convince it to return, and we're trying with them, or we form a new delegation," he said.

in full: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.557828

[delrem]

1. The dumb ass, Abbas, is an unbearably noxious quisling.

His sell-out price is so fucking low that there isn't even that much to credit him with. Compare the House of Saud. The Emir of Qatar.

[Jefferson23]

2. He is pathetic..very sad pathetic man. n/t

[shira]

3. Hamas is better? You prefer them over Abbas? n/t

[Jefferson23]

5. Your repetitive and contrived questions are boring. n/t

[shira]

6. Is that a yes or no? n/t

[shira]

4. I never see you guys calling Hamas unbearably noxious, quislings, etc....

In fact, I never see you guys bashing Hamas for anything.

So why is it wrong for me to assume you support Hamas and see that as the people's movement?

[delrem]

7. Well if it isn't shira, the peacelover.

Now I could list reasons right out of your hasbara manual:
Because "us guys" all follow/support
HITLER!
MONSTERS!
BABY KILLERS!
INHUMAN!
MINIONS!
HORDES!
but the list would take forever, wouldn't it?

So I'll cut to the chase:
The OP was about Abbas.
Abbas was given the right to "negotiate peace" with Israel, by Israel and the USA, and nobody from Hamas was allowed to interfere. Likewise nobody from the refugee population was allowed to interfere. It was Abbas who was chosen by Netanyahu to be his main man, his go-to guy to complete this new iteration of the same old charade. It is Abbas who's the noxious quisling of the moment.

[shira]

27. It's just that pro-Pals here and elsewhere seem to have more of a problem with the PA/Fatah....

...than they do Hamas.

I wonder if it's really the PA/Fatah and Abbas, or whether you guys also saw Arafat as a quisling bozo dummy as well. Is that the case? Was Arafat just as bad as Abbas? If not bad, what's the difference between the 2 in your opinion?

[delrem]

52. That's just more stormfront-like reductionism and personal attack,

mixed in with an overtly anti-Palestinian smear.

[shira]

55. How so? n/t

[bemildred]

8. Hamas is "terrorists", not quislings. Quislings submit, like Abbas, they don't blow your shit up.

I don't support either one of them, why should I?

[delrem]

9. That's been explained by everybody, so many many times.

It isn't that shira doesn't know, doesn't remember anything one the "you guys" post, it's that she's not going to leave go of one of her only talking points.

[bemildred]

10. It just annoys me the way these insults are thrown around like they are interchangeable.

It's ignorant and illiterate and undermines the credibility of what you say. It's one of the main reasons I can never watch American TV, it is such illiterate, many-times regurgitated, many times re-played twaddle. It doesn't even leave you feeling good, because there is no real structure to it, it's all acted out in terms of fear and hate and lust and greed.

So every once in a while i get in someones face about it.

[delrem]

11. I think we should always be in the face of people

who present batshit crazy alternative realities, disconnect from fact.

This is what we've got here - someone, in the face of reality and part of a hasbara operation, attempting to control language to misrepresent fact. In the case of the shira-sock of hasbara, the goal is to describe the protagonists in such extremely evocative language that reason itself is subject to hell's dictates.

Not cool, IMO.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I don't think they're part of any operation...

Hell, I'm not great at organising things, but if I had that as a flagship of my operation, I'd be sending them their marching orders before they ended up making everyone hate the cute little puppies that my organisation tries to save and foster out.

Quisling is as quisling does!

[delrem]

14. yup, that's the contradiction.

But if these jokers aren't hasbara, who exactly is hasbara, since we know that $100's of millions go into hasbara operations? I wouldn't suppose that such a machine would overlook DU. YMMV but, it's just a few pennies relatively speaking.

To be sure these jokers are doing a piss poor job of defending Israel. They're also doing a piss poor job of leading conversation to a higher level, though their presence is monilithic due to the identity of their opinions and their willingness to substitute for each other when dragging out a "debate". In fact I think it's fucking weird, Violet. Very contradictory.

[King_David]

79. delrem...You should look at Bemildred's post #22 to you...

And take it to heart...
It comes from somebody that you wouldn't consider a "burrito Hasbarrito" and then after you read post #22 just reflect on the fact that this is ONLY a discussion board/group.

[delrem]

85. OK. Done.

My opinions stand unchanged, because bemildred's argument wasn't convincing.
That's a small 'b' in 'bemildred', by the way - as I immediately noticed when I first encountered the name, long long ago while lurking mostly in GD and vids, appreciating how the name is reminiscent of a word in the English lexicon.

I appreciate jabberwocky.

You seem heavily invested in explaining a few uninteresting views to me, King_David -- as it were some private project of yours to enhance my personal growth.
Uninteresting in the sense that "Reflect on the fact that dirt plus water equals mud" is an uninteresting exercise.

In several of your missives you explain that you don't think I ought to be posting to DU I/P. I'm sure that you think you have valid reasons. You don't like that I call a rat-pack a rat-pack after having being rat-packed by the same DU I/P login names for a year. I'm not supposed to notice that stormfront-like methods are stormfront-like, when they're systematically used over a long period. I'm not supposed to notice the limitations being projected by that rat-pack, even though just recently the whole rat-pack stepped up and, one by one, denied that according as Israel's foundation or basic law and supreme court judgments, the definition of Israel as being a Jewish State contains a clause ruling that Israel has a Jewish majority (legislation affirming a demographic project).

[King_David]

86. Ha ha ha

That's a funny post ...

And bizarre too...

Carry on.

[delrem]

89. Altho' "ha ha ha" is a fair representation of your wit,

and your wit has been improving of late, I think you should at least start to work on problems of context and substance.

Your response "ha ha ha" is a bit disconcerting given the fact related, that "just recently the whole rat-pack stepped up and, one by one, denied that according as Israel's foundation or basic law and supreme court judgments, the definition of Israel as being a Jewish State contains a clause ruling that Israel has a Jewish majority (legislation affirming a demographic project)." That rat-pack includes you, Dave, and the unanimity and uniformity of it doesn't speak well regarding you and your colleagues in hasbara -- as you call it, your merry band of hasbaritos. After all, the whole bunch of you are on record as denying *that* Israel is a Jewish State as so defined by law and supreme court interpretations, and that's a no-no that can be explained only by ignorance or mendacity.

If it were one or two of you, fine - the rest could perhaps inform your less informed comrades. But since it's all of you, I don't think "ha ha ha" is in tune with the reality.

[shira]

92. That's the same damned lie you were spewing a month or two ago....

What does it say for your cause when all you have are lies?

You think that reflects well on you and others like you who support Palestinian nationalism?

Shaktimaan thoroughly ripped that stupid, lying, racist shit up a month ago...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113447498#post16

And you're back for more.

Un.Real.

[delrem]

94. Untrue. and you should wash your mouth out.

eta:
My statement was:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=49343
"If a state whose founding laws guarantee one sect/race a demographic majority
can be called a "democracy", then IMO it is. But the guarantee of a Jewish demographic majority is perverted."

Shaktimaan asked:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50143
"what founding law does that?"

I answered:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50157
"We've been through this before, several times.
"When you don't want to acknowledge something, as in this case, you simply deny that 'xyz' says 'xyz'. So there's little point in my responding, but oh well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Jewish_and_Democratic_State#Israeli_High_Court_of_Justice.27s_commentary
"Regarding the meaning of the definition of "Jewish and Democratic State" in this section of the law,
then President of the Supreme Court of Israel, Aharon Barak, wrote that a narrow interpretation should be given to it,
since it limits a basic right, in contrast to the broader interpretation that should be given to laws concerning
Human rights.
Concerning the minimal interpretation of "a Jewish State", Justice Aharon Barak ruled that:
"What, then are the 'core' characteristics shaping the minimum definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish State?
These characteristics come from the aspects of both Zionism and heritage. At their center stands the right of
every Jew to immigrate to the State of Israel, where the Jews will constitute a majority;
Hebrew is the official and principal language of the State and most of its fests and symbols reflect the
national revival of the Jewish People; The heritage of the Jewish People is a central component of its religious
and cultural legacy".
--Aharon Barak"

In followups the entire hasbara crew flat out *denied* that Israel is a Jewish State as so defined with the clause, above, owing to Aharon Barak: "At their center stands the right of
every Jew to immigrate to the State of Israel, where the Jews will constitute a majority;"

You were as foul mouthed then as you are now, shira, and you were as flat-out FALSE then as now.

And why shouldn't I rub your noses in it, since you went out of your way to make the mess.

[Violet_Crumble]

90. Don't take any notice of that one, delrem...

It wouldn't cross their mind for a second that they're someone who should read and digest what bemildred said, coz it applies to them as well as anyone else. And they need to apply the it's only a discussion forum advice to themselves. They come across as overly fixated on how many posts you have hidden, and before you they latched onto others with a similar routine, like Ken Burch. And anyone who tells you that you shouldn't be posting here isn't worth taking any notice of. I rarely do of that one

[King_David]

93. Not surprised cos before you returned to IP from your hiatus

I actually honestly was thinkin that delrem was Violet Crumble posting under a new name... But then you returned so I saw it couldn't be..

Which is good because now there's -12 of us participating in this discussion forum .

[delrem]

106. I notice that one turned into two -

in a tag-team where another one steps in, the first one vanishing. For awhile. Definitely a tag-team.

The two in this tag-team are identical in that both are extremely sensitive regarding Aharon Barak's high court ruling that the definition of Israel is of a state or country where Jews make up a demographic majority.

Yet that has to be the first of issues addressed w.r.t. the occupation of Palestine. It's hardly a point that I'm going to ignore when discussing I/P. It's a very dry and academic point, far far away from talk of enemy "nazi's" and "terrorists" and boogeymen.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. That's pretty harsh. What about 'How I Met Your Mother'?

That's an example of American TV that hits the right spot and isn't illiterate or stupid. And an example for the world of how not all American TV humour lacks subtlety and can actually be funny.

But I do sometimes watch 'The Bold & The Beautiful' so I'm going to call you a quisling and be done with it!

[bemildred]

19. OK, sometimes there are exceptions, we do rise to mediocrity occasionally.

Last edited Mon Nov 18, 2013, 09:59 AM - Edit history (1)

But when we try to be daring it comes out banal, and nobody gets it.

You have to remember, I live here, I watched the stupid disease spread here, and then go out and attempt to colonize the rest of the world. Here, they have alienated an entire generation with their bigotry and police state wannabe antics and shitty war-is-all, the rich are our benefactors economic policies. i think it's going to get ugly. It is ugly already. These racist assholes never go quietly.

But to be fair, I mostly watch movies on cable, and I never last 5 minutes with any "shows" except MSNBC political talk when it's not just speculation and babble, or if I'm sufficiently bombed out to not care. Then I watch with the sound off (the dialog is so distracting) and study the body language and placements and whatnot. Have you noticed how everybody has a tablet these days? And vampires and zombies, I'm sick of vampires and zombies.

"But enough about me, what do YOU think about ME?" That's Hollywood. That's all they have. We have movies about people making movies all the time. Show business is it's own favorite subject matter, what else is important, really?

Anyway, now you know what I really think of "western values", which bear a remarkable resemblance to the "values" of all the other violent and greedy assholes that history is littered with.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. I'm with you apart from the zombie thing...

You can never have too many zombie movies. The best of the lot is Charlie Brooker's 'Dead Set' where the zombie apocalypse meets the Big Brother contestants, and of course Shaun of the Dead. Of course they're both British ones, and now I come to think of it, I can't think of a decent American zombie movie...

Yr vent was enjoyable and made wasting my time in this group today worthwhile at last

[bemildred]

23. My pleasure. Shaun of the Dead is a rip off of Juan de los Muertos.

Lots of ripping off of the already ripped off too, zombies and vampires together is a great idea! Though I suppose the zombies must be a disappointment to the vampires, no blood there.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1838571/

[Violet_Crumble]

40. I'll have to watch that one. I'd never heard of it...

I've got a lot of free time right now, so when I go back to work and they ask me how I kept myself occupied, I can say I watched a foreign film with subtitles!

[bemildred]

60. We have Spanish language stations on cable here, it's all that keeps me sane.

The mainstream US stuff is so slick my brain turns into curdled snot in about five minutes if I watch it. However, my fav is Army of Darkness, if you want to go there.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106308/

Trapped in time. Surrounded by evil. Low on gas

[bemildred]

22. I think, at this point, I would like to remind you of my post count.

I know all these people very well, even Shira and Pelsar. Violet and I started here around the same time. I once spent lots of time in flame wars down here like you. Oberliner and I do not always agree, but we do talk. He/She is an intelligent person, who follows what I say accurately. Most of the time if they leave me alone I leave them alone. So while I know whereof you speak, I'm not going there. Further polarizing the issue does not help, in my view. I realize it gets annoying, it annoys me, but we all have to grow up someday. No offense intended.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Apart from Lithos, I think you and I hold the record for longetivity...

I agree with you on how you see Oberliner. I'm sure at times I annoy him as much as he annoys me, so it all evens out in the wash. There's one or two that I do the won't bother with them unless they decide to bother with me and if I'm really really totally bored and at a loose end, I'll follow them down the rabbit warren.

btw, I think you arrived at DU before me. Someone elsewhere at DU was talking about their earliest posts at DU, which prompted me to dust off DU1 and see if I could find one of mine. I thought it'd be a 'Deleted Post - Name Removed' one, but this one's one of my very first offerings at DU...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5546&forum=DCForumID30&archive=yes#4

[shira]

42. The 2002 VC seems pretty reasonable. What the hell happened since? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Nothing much, except I've gotten older...

What I said there has been a recurring theme from me over the years here. Much as I'd love nothing better than to sit here and listen to you inform me of what my views actually are and how I'm lying when I say what my views are, followed by a visit down a rabbit warren, I'm kinda busy today with stuff that's occupying my time, so I'll leave you to it...

Enjoy the rest of yr evening!

[bemildred]

58. Yeah, I think it was around April that year, lurking a bit before that.

Around when I lost my last job and decided to not get another one.

I still have a copy of the "long thread" around here somewhere.

[bemildred]

61. Ah, there it is:

"Why The Left Was Wrong"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=116x2755

[shira]

62. Interesting thread. Have your views changed since? n/t

[bemildred]

65. About what? nt

[bemildred]

68. Here is a good link for the piece in post #451:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/VKdyxrAhzE4#!topic/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/VKdyxrAhzE4

That's a reasonably good summary of my view of the situation at that time, and seems remarkably prescient to me, looking at it now. One of the reasons we are not going to do Iran and Syria is because we can't, we don't have that sort of Army any more, ready to go, all we can do is bomb and special forces mercenaries and drones and stuff, no boots on the ground, and that is not enough. Our Army was broken after Vietnam, and was rebuilt, but not reformed, and the Neocons broke it again, while turning the entire Middle East into a quagmire.

And thanks to Snowden we just went blind too.

[bemildred]

91. Amos & Dempsey: Don’t Just Stop Sequester, Save The Ground Force

See, no army? And I would imagine our logistics situation really sucks about now too, except we still have lots of bombs, lots and lots of dumb bombs in particular.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11782317

[delrem]

83. OK. And since shira's post count beats crap out of mine, I should defer to her as well.

In fact, as your argument puts it, I'm the the lowliest w.r.t. post count so my exchanges over the past year don't give me ground for general suspicions - and as King_David just put it, speaking for you after the above post, I really should chill out and accept the crap he spews.

[bemildred]

87. Yeah, whatever you say. Bye. nt

[oberliner]

15. In an attempt to clarfy...

I think the point was that Abbas/Fatah seems to get more shit among some here than Hamas. I wouldn't say you were among that number. However, I do think that among some quarters of the anti-hasbara community, the Hamas-led group is viewed more favorably than the Abbas-led one. Even in this very thread, Abbas is described as a "noxious quisling" who was selected by Netanyahu.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. That would be a pretty stupid point...

All it looked like was that yet again that poster was implying that DUers who don't agree with her support Hamas.

I think the description of Abbas as a quisling isn't far from the truth, btw. At least the person saying it knows what quisling means, unlike Shira...

[oberliner]

17. Check out Richard Silverstein's twitter feed

He recently got some ire for something somewhat along these lines (i.e. being more critical of Abbas than Hamas).

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I don't bother with twits at twitter...

Some morons having a go at someone somewhere else doesn't interest me when I can see the exact same thing happening here in this thread...

[oberliner]

25. I can understand why

For some strange reason I am fascinated by some of that nonsense. Probably for the same strange reason that I am fascinated by similar nonsense here.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. I think I'm afraid if I started reading I'd never be able to tear myself away...

The one time I did hang out there, I was very focused and joined a group of locals who were making fun of the folk who called themselves the Australian Tea Party who were on Twitter threatening to blockade Canberra coz of all the gays and single mothers and terrorist refugees the govt supported on their tax dollar. I wandered off after that. I find a few hours in GD is enough for me nowadays...

[shira]

29. Is it Fatah or Abbas who are the quislings? Was Arafat as bad as Abbas in yr opinion? n/t

[bemildred]

21. Arguable.

I think it depends on your point of view.

"Pro-Palestinians" see him (Abba) as a stooge, for reasons which seem obvious to me, without necessarily agreeing to that, and to see the Hamas rejectionist stance as having integrity (I know that's a stunner, isn't it?). That does not have much to do with their reactionary social policies or lack of "western values", to be sure.

"Pro-Israelis" see everything just the opposite, of course.

A lot seems to depend of what people choose to focus on, and that tends to depend on what side they have chosen in the dispute, who they think has the right on their side. So it gets circular, and dogmatic, on both sides.

[oberliner]

24. "So it gets circular, and dogmatic, on both sides."

Definitely agree with that. Some of the "pro-Israeli" folks, incidentally, see Abbas and Hamas as two sides of the same coin. While some see Abbas as the "good guys" and Hamas as the "bad guys". Some of the "pro-Palestinian" folks seems to see Hamas as the "good guys" and Abbas as the "bad guys" as they see Abbas being in league with the main bad guy Israelis while Hamas stands up to them.

My own personal view is that Abbas stands much more strongly for the values that I myself espouse (see the Geneva Initiative) whereas Hamas stands in opposition to same. Thus I have a fairly favorable view of Abbas and a very negative view of Hamas. And, sadly, no one is paying me to espouse those views.

[bemildred]

26. I don't believe in good guys and bad guys any more.

Anybody can be either at any time, it all depends on what you do today.

[bemildred]

37. But yeah, I know what you mean.

Nobody pays me either. It's good to wander off and do other things now and then ...

I think Abbas is a nicer man than Arafat, I'd not be good at that sort of role either.

[shira]

31. Good clarification and thanks, Obie. I often wonder why Abbas is called a quisling/dummy....

....and why moderate Palestinians like Ray Hanania or pro-Palestinians like Hussein Ibish aren't very well liked among the pro-Palestinian crowd. I wonder if Hanania and Ibish are considered weak dummies who submit and would be quislings themselves if in charge.

The only conclusion I can come up with is that these people are willing to work for 2-states, so the anti-zionists and haters of all that is Israel have no need for such "wusses". They prefer the 1-staters who believe in a greater Palestine that will only result via resistance, whatever that means (terror or whatever).

[azurnoir]

32. Interesting wording

moderate' vs pro is that yet another zero sum equation? What should be noted is that both Dr Ibish and Ray Hanania are Americans, with the former seems to mostly concern himself with bigotry again Muslims in the US he is a member of ATFoP

http://www.americantaskforce.org/

as opposed to Hanania who is a radio personality/comedian in the Chicago area who once years ago joked that he could be President of Palestine, a joke latched on to by the hard line ProIsrael community as serious

[shira]

33. Hanania & Ibish are American but so are Ali Abunimah & Greta Berlin....

The latter 2 are more respected within the pro-Palestinian community.

Why do u think that is?

[azurnoir]

34. Funny how you like to bracket together Abunimah and Berlin why is that?

especially after Abunimah condemned Berlins posting a video of a Nazi on Facebook(?), as to Berlin the only one that seems to mention her as an object of adoration among the ProPalestinian s here is you, outside of your going on about her Berlin is never mentioned by ProPalestinians before or after the Facebook debacle she seems far more important to you and a couple of others than any of the ProPalestinian people here, but if do not understand why an American comedian is not as highly thought of in the ProPalestinian community as a writer such as Abunimah, I really do not feel it worth my time to explain.

[shira]

35. Then forget about Hanania and Berlin. Let's go with Abunimah vs. Ibish...

Why is it that Abunimah's views are generally more acceptable to the pro-Palestinian contingent than those of Ibish?

Also, do you find that Arafat was more respected among pro-Palestinian advocates than his successor Abbas? If so, why?

[azurnoir]

36. Ibish is simply never mentioned perhaps because he is not as well know as Abunimah, who due to his

publication Electronic Intifada has become quite well known, whereas Ibish is more known in academic circles


but tell us why do you think it is I'm curious

[oberliner]

38. The post didn't say he was never mentioned

Just that his views weren't as popular.

His views being that there should be two states living side by side at peace with one another. Similar to Abbas's views.

[azurnoir]

39. please get back to me when you actually wish to address the issue rather

than sniggle over the minutia of my reply to someone else

eta Ibish to my memory has not been mentioned here on DU sav this conversation, but feel free to search until you find something okay? Then you have proven me inaccurate, lying or wrong

[shira]

43. Ibish's views don't rub well with the pro-Pal crowd. They prefer Abunimah's views....

Why do you think that is?

[azurnoir]

45. well according to you Greta Berlin is the heroine of

"pro-Pal" crowd which BTW is quite diverse in it's opinions despite the most extreme being chosen to exemplify the whole, sort of like the ProPalestinian people choosing Baruch Goldstein to represent all proIsrael people so in this case there is really little point in answering someone who's mind is already fastened shut on the matter

[shira]

46. Do u not know why Abunimah's views are more popular than Ibish's or do u fear answering? n/t

[azurnoir]

47. well shira why don't you tell us what you think the reasons are?

not that I can not entirely predict but I want it in your own words exactly what you think and feel the ProPalestinian community here on DU wants promise?

[shira]

49. Sigh....fuhgeddaboudit. SoS, different day. n/t

[azurnoir]

50. shira I'm asking because there isn't all that much difference between Ibish and Abunimah on issues

like RoR and recognizing Israel as Jewish State and in fact he's written jointly with Abunimah in the past

here are a couple of examples


http://ibishblog.com/2009/06/02/question_reader_palestinian_right_return/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/25/should_the_palestinians_recognize_israel_as_a_jewish_state

[shira]

51. Ibish strongly supports 2 states. Also, he's not for RoR like the BDS crowd.

Moreover, in the radio program I insisted that the right of return was a principle that ought to be recognized by Israel as part of an end-of-conflict agreement. However, I also recognized that, as a sovereign state, Israel has the authority to determine who will be entering its territory, and that the logic of a two-state peace agreement is not consistent with the return of huge numbers of Palestinian refugees to live in Israel. I also said that, in my view, Israel should agree to allow some refugees the option to return, but that if it refused to do so in agreement that would end the occupation and end the conflict should not be “broken on those rocks.”

http://ibishblog.com/2009/06/02/question_reader_palestinian_right_return/

Here's his latest on support for 2 states....
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/17/israel-and-palestine-vs-blood-and-magic.html

[azurnoir]

53. while I understand that currently the BDS movement seems to make you afraid

you simply can not justifiably or even believably base your opinion of the worthiness of an entire movement on what you extrapolate the aims of the BDS and its supporters really are

In this case Ibish does not say that RoR is wrong or even unjustifiable he says Israel will not agree to it, true he says it quite diplomatically but that is what it is nothing more or less

[shira]

54. Abunimah is for BDS, 1-state, full RoR. Ibish is for 2 states & says that even if Israel refused...

...to allow any refugees in, that shouldn't be a deal-breaker. Ibish realizes that Israel allowing a lot of refugees in is contrary to a 2-state solution.

So why is the pro-Palestinian movement more supportive of Abunimah's views than those of Ibish?

I truly believe that with more people like Ibish in leadership positions of the PA, there'd be a comprehensive peace agreement within days, if not hours. Is that why the pro-Pal movement in general doesn't like him very much? Just asking...

[azurnoir]

56. ah how predictalble shira you arrange things so that you can claim

that the ProPalestoinian movement is really only attempting to destroy Israel which you conveniently conflate with Jews (you've very coyly avoided that in this conversation, but if you deny it I'll give examples of you doing just that)

one state vs two becomes viable state vs non-viable state, the shrill predictions of another Gaza made the ProIsrael set are really self fulfilling prophecies, more indicators of Israels intention because of the settlements
and as I said Ibishs words were very carefully chosen so much so that you apparently were fooled really what he said was that Israel will never allow RoR

[shira]

63. So once again, why is Ibish marginalized by the pro-Pals you associate with....

Last edited Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:25 AM - Edit history (2)

Meanwhile, Abunimah's views are more widely accepted in your circles, as are the views expressed at Mondoweiss, ISM, PSC...

The reason?

==================

Also, is it generally accepted by your circle of pro-Pal friends that Arafat was also a tool, lackey, dummy, and quisling like Abbas? If not, what's the major diff. b/w Arafat and Abbas? Or what could Abbas do to become as respected as Arafat?

[azurnoir]

70. Not being as well known is simply not the same as being marginalized

but I do understand why you'd need to claim that-myself I've pointed out the same as Ibish -while RoR is the right thing to do, Israel will never allow it. What Ibish did not mention is the price tag for such a thing-that were it me bargaining for the Palestinian side I'd give it up-but for a price and a large price tag at that Israel evacuating the entire Jordan River valley all of it, not one settlement, outpost or soldier left-save perhaps a joint security force with the Palestinians at the Allenby Bridge-What would Israel get? Most of the settlement blocs in the E1 area with a joint control of East Jerusalem and free access to all

As for your claims about Abbas vs Arafat you must assume I haven't been reading the entire thread all along to make such a claim

[shira]

71. The BDS crowd is totally against 2 states & would never budge on RoReturn...

I don't see how u can continue to say Ibish is part of the pro-Pal crowd whose BDS activism pretty much defines where they stand on I/P. It's like saying Amos Oz and Peter Beinart are part of the Abunimah, Mondoweiss crowd.

And I don't know what u mean by this:

As for your claims about Abbas vs Arafat you must assume I haven't been reading the entire thread all along to make such a claim

[azurnoir]

72. as for what you call the BDS crowd here is Omar Bargouthi himself

Building on its global ascendance, the BDS movement is spreading across the U.S., especially on campuses and in churches. Multi-million-dollar campaigns by Israel’s foreign ministry to counter BDS by “rebranding” through art, science and cynically using LGBT rights to “pinkwash” Israel’s denial of basic Palestinian rights have failed to stem the tide.

Without increasing international pressure and accountability, Israel will carry on with total impunity its brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza; its untamed construction of illegal settlements and wall in the occupied West Bank; its strategy of “Judaization” in Jerusalem, the Galilee, the Jordan Valley and the Naqab (Negev), its adoption of new racist laws and its denial of refugees’ rights.

and this last and oh so familiar part because this is exactly what we see being said here on DU

Israel and its lobby groups often try to delegitimize the Palestinian quest for equality by portraying the nonviolent BDS emphasis on equal rights and the right of return as aiming to “destroy Israel.” If equality and justice would destroy Israel, what does that say about Israel? Did equality and justice destroy South Africa? Alabama?

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/boycott-israel-article-1.1271226?pgno=1

BTW would you say that Stephen Hawking is out to "destroy Israel"?

my statement about Abbas vs Arafat was because it's been discussed already on this thread

[shira]

73. More bullshit from you, as you attempt to portray BDS as something it is not....

There's no point continuing when you lie about BDS goals of 1-state based on full RoR.

Why the lies?

[azurnoir]

74. I excerpted what Omar Barghouti himself wrote and you are doing exactly what he wrote about

in response so my to you

[shira]

75. It's a fekking lie to claim that folks like Ibish, Oz, and Beinart hold similar views....

...to those of the BDS crowd like Abunimah, Mondoweiss, the ISM, and PSC.

I asked why the pro-Pal crowd holds views similar to the BDS crowd rather than those associated with Ibish or Lib Zionists like Oz and Beinart.

Still no answer many posts later.

Why not just admit you don't want to answer?

Why the bullshit run-around?

[azurnoir]

76. what are you even talking about Beinart and Oz haven't been mentioned in our conversation

and once again I do understand why you insist on pigeon holing what you call the BDS crowd which would now include Stephen Hawking with those you insist are out to destroy Israel
your method here is called divide and conquer albeit I'm not too sure about that last part, what does become apparent is your continued need to claim support for a Palestinian State is really based on hatred for Jews
Beinart is for BDS that includes only the settlements however how effective is that really-given that any settlement enterprise can easily disguise itself by merely renting an office space West of the Green Line and saying that is the business address, something I understand is being freely done these days

[shira]

77. Beinart, Oz, and Ibish are all 2-staters. Hawking probably is too...

Do you really believe I'm misrepresenting the crowd over at Mondoweiss, ElectronicIntifada, the ISM, PSC, and FreeGaza when I write that they are 1-staters for full RoR?

[azurnoir]

80. at this point there's something I must ask

why are you obsessing over people that are really nothing more than talking heads as opposed to those who are actually doing something and will really have some influence?

what's your point here?

[King_David]

81. Ha ha,yes I agree

We even have people/a person in this forum obsessing over characters posting here instead of the real actors.

The sideshow / drama may be more exciting than the real event .

[shira]

28. Do you think Arafat was also a quisling who submitted? n/t

[bemildred]

30. Arguable. On the whole no. Perhaps he was just more effective as a leader.

But a profound student of his own self-interest too.

Made things more uncomfortable for his enemies. Enraged the Israeli right as a consquence, they hated his guts. The Israeli gov't doesn't respect Abbas, but they are much more comfortable with him. It's amazing how often one finds fear and hate together.

That is why the Israeli right likes Abbas better, he is not effective, everybody ignores him except for PR purposes. He should resign and has threatened to do so many times. It's pathetic.

[pelsar]

57. this whole thread is missing the major point ....

and the only reason i can thing of is because "your all' so immersed in "politics" as opposed to some of the more concrete realities.

1) abbas works with Israel on a day to day basis to keep hama's influence in the west bank down. He simply can't do it alone

2) He knows damn well whats going to happen to him and his partners (his fellow corrupt elite) if they fail to retain power and hamas takes over. like any leader in a non democratic world his life, his power, his status relies upon him keeping the opposition down...and in this case it hamas.

why do you think there is no serious "arab spring" in the west bank?....simply because once the PA is gone, hamas will take their place and the west bankers are well aware of what that means.

Israel knows this and takes advantage of it, Abbas has to walk a tightrope between the Palestenian cause, his own neck, and keeping hamas out.
_______________

so thats what his quisling in all about....of course, then one has to ask the nice people here who are lambasting Abbas....if they thinks its even relevant that if abbas fails in his tight rope game, that hamas does infact redo the gaza take over in the west bank

The Hamas official added that what is allowing Hamas in the West Bank to recover from the blows inflicted by the PA and Israel

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/contents/articles/originals/2013/08/hamas-west-bank-israel-security.html#

[bemildred]

59. So you agree he's a Quisling?

A quisling (/ˈkwɪzlɪŋ/; Norwegian pronunciation: [ˈkʋɪsˈlɪŋ]) is a person who collaborated with Axis forces in occupied Allied countries during World War II – including members of fascist and collaborationist political parties and military and paramilitary forces. In contemporary usage, quisling is synonymous with traitor, and particularly applied to politicians who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quisling

[pelsar]

66. hes a dictator.....protecting his hide

that makes him by default an immoral, corrupt, facist, self preservationist quisling if you like.

of course one could add, that if one is actually concerned and believes that hamas taking over the west bank is the worser of the two evils, (as in whats worse assad or the jihadists taking over syria), then one might look upon his quisling in a different light.


whats worse: the quisling of secular abbas or the theocratic rule of hamas.....the options are limited here

[bemildred]

67. OK, thanks for the clarification. nt

[pelsar]

69. sure....n/t

[shira]

64. All these pro-Pal folks have such strong feelings against Abbas, but none are willing to discuss....

Last edited Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:22 AM - Edit history (1)

...in more detail.

[azurnoir]

78. Dumb-ass???? I'm not so sure here

a few years back I would have agreed, however more recently Abbas has started to show a wee just a wee bit of back bone, and while there is little doubt in my mind that these current negotiations will go nowhere, Abbas is playing it out, I believe he has every intention of ending up at the ICC but Kerry said give it 9 months and 9 months he will give it, because when this does end up at the ICC there can be no excuses as to why, in short IMO at this time Abbas might well be politically prudent to do what he is doing

[Jefferson23]

82. Well, I sincerely hope to be wrong about Abbas, dead wrong, in fact.

I don't see him as a force to be relied upon, not at all, because he is dependent on the US. Look at the mess in the ME, overall...they are very weak.

What am I missing here? Didn't Kerry ask the Arab League to refer to land swaps in their Peace Initiative? They agreed, did they not?

Since when do land swaps not mean Israel’s annexation of the major settlement blocs giving Palestinians some
territory but the route of the Wall acts as the border..correct?

How does one define a Palestinian state when Israeli retention of the settlement blocs of Ariel, Karnei Shomron
and Ma’ale Adumim divides the West Bank in 3 parts, seizing some of its most precious land and cuts off East Jerusalem?

Why would Abbas feel threatened by Hamas, when they have no power. Hamas has nothing left in Syria nor Iran
and we all know what happened to the MB in Egypt..who was their last hope. Watch how Bibi is avoiding a deal,
as long as he can..the facts on the ground he wants to secure as irreversible...so if there is a temporary
agreement, no one will be happier than Bibi.

So yes, I see Abbas as a dumb ass and a failure..his reaction here is to continue to go along to get along and
that goes for Erekat..super dope.

The EU guidelines are suppose to start this coming January, and if USA and Israel can avoid implementation
by saying..hey,look at us, we're negotiating...those facts on the ground will continue to be made irreversible.

[azurnoir]

84. well everything you said is nwhy if Abbas is worth anything this will wind up with the ICC

now Kerry supposedly is rolling out a US plan in January, and make no mistake I have my doubts about that and what it will contain as seen here:

But even within the narrow framework in which Washington’s Israel-Palestine policy is constructed, the Ross-Makovsky approach never worked. It is based only on constantly re-drawing maps in order to satiate Israel’s growing appetite for land, all while applying enormous pressure on the Palestinian Authority to play along. The possibility, even as a completely hypothetical exercise, that Israel prefers maintaining the status quo over ending the occupation is not part of the Ross-Makovsky playbook, so any confrontation with the Israeli government – no matter how rejectionist or right wing it might be – is also out of the question. Under those circumstances, a breakthrough is highly unlikely (and expect the Palestinians to be blamed; that’s also part of the playbook)*.

http://972mag.com/a-pro-israel-hawk-to-draft-kerrys-peace-offer/82121/

* my emphasis and I suspect the talking points are being written as I write this

it's still the best shot right now, what will the ICC do, what effect will it have-that remains to be seen, however it would open the door to sanctions, if Israel still remains reluctant then 1 state is about all that is left

[Jefferson23]

88. Oh Kerry is definitely rolling out a plan for January, he wants Israel/PA to " negotiate "

so EU guidelines can be avoided..then more land will be secured as irreversible for Israel while they
take their sweet time allegedly negotiating in good faith.

I do not trust Abbas to do the right thing, but it is true he cannot act alone..so we'll see.

[pelsar]

96. hamas in Gaza....you forgot about them

Why would Abbas feel threatened by Hamas, when they have no power.

maybe because polls show hamas has a strong showing in the west bank? may because hamas took gaza in a few days? maybe cause the PA is busy chasing down hamas nightly with the IDF and they still are strong?

Hamas is still bankrolled by iran and hizballa.. The ONLY ones who discount hamas in the west bank are those who need to be willfully blind, just as they were in 2005 when israel left gaza.

but then, hamas taking over the west bank, even the possibility of it, is not something that is up for discussion is it?

[Jefferson23]

97. No, you're wrong...but you often are. Have a nice day. n/t

[pelsar]

99. I"m wrong?.... i guess so is al-monitor, but what do they know.....

about what?
your inability to even discuss the possibility?
that hamas taking over gaza after israel left wasn't even seriously considered by you and others?
that hamas is bankrolled by iran and helped by hizballa?

that hamas is a real presence in the west bank?

well....which one, lets see some real info, or is this one of the subjects "that can't be discussed" (since even to mention it, is to admit that it is a possibility?)
____

and just for fun, for those who are actually interested in the actual events and believe that living in fantasy land isn't always good idea:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/contents/articles/originals/2013/08/hamas-west-bank-israel-security.html
Palestinian security forces are pursuing all political activities and rallies for fear that Hamas might gain control of the West Bank, as it did in Gaza.


Iran rebuilding relations with Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood
http://www.wnd.com/2013/11/iran-rebuilding-relations-with-hamas-muslim-brotherhood/


do you need more...or i have an idea...why don't you try using google, though you'll have a lot of links to ignore before you find what your looking for (maybe in some american magazine like vanity fair)

[Jefferson23]

100. Your post, the al monitor, supports me, not you.

Your second source is hilarious..a source affiliated with World Net/Nut Daily.

That source also has a story listed as, Obama Agent Forsees Health Care Apocalypse

There is nothing to discuss, Hamas does not have the power you think they do...enlighten yourself
through Google or any other means you prefer....I'm not interested in what you think, about
anything.

[pelsar]

101. ...do you need others....

i did mention you might use google yourself., so i assume you would rather not, so i guess I"ll have to help,

There is nothing to discuss,
of course you don't want to discuss it, to even discuss it opens up the discussion on your values..and you don't want to go there.....

.I'm not interested in what you think, about anything.

of course your not interested, having your "beliefs" even questioned, its sacrilegious...still there are others who need to know how wrong you are:
____
first some history 2007.....so many naive people believe like you do:
2007 Islamic militant group Hamas has won a surprise victory in Wednesday's Palestinian parliamentary elections.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4650788.stm

now for the present:
there is a mini war going on between hamas and the PA it goes up and down, but never disappears:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2012/al-monitor/hamas-west-bank.html

It is unclear whether the Islamic Resistance Movement will be permitted to work publicly in the West Bank. In the past five years, non-governmental organizations affiliated with Hamas have either been closed or forced to limit their public activities in the West Bank.


don't like al monitor?
Khalil Shikaki of the PalestinianCenter for Policy and Survey Research

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/18/hamas-would-win-a-west-bank-election-if-it-was-held-today-poll/
Hamas would win a West Bank election if it was held today: poll

how about RT?
http://rt.com/news/hamas-west-bank-politics-037/
"We, Hamas, have roots and historical depth. We are more strong in the West Bank than in Gaza since the elections in 2006,

need others?

[Jefferson23]

102. My values and my beliefs have not contributed to the fact that you're wrong about Hamas.

But when in doubt, you post bullshit.

Do you have any idea what the words, past tense mean in relationship to Hamas?

From your responses, one can only surmise, no.

Bye.

[pelsar]

103. apparently hamas, the PA and Israel disagree with you

but hey what do we all know, we just all live out here......we're just the locals, what do we know
your values are such, that they do not allow for you to be even questioned, or even discuss the environment with one of the locals....

2013:
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Analysis-The-Hamas-threat-from-the-West-Bank-325032

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-arrests-hamas-members-west-bank-180211408.html

Hamas in Gaza Sending Out Tentacles to the West Bank
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/05/24/hamas-in-gaza-sending-out-tentacles-to-the-west-bank


Hamas drone plot against Israel foiled by Palestinian Authority
http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/10/28/hamas-drone-plot-against-israel-foiled-by-palestinian-authority/


http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=6247
Alleged Hamas terror cell received instructions and funding from a Hamas source outside of Israel, attempted to form cells among students and re-assert Hamas influence on the West Bank.

[Jefferson23]

104. For a local, you're lost..this is true.

At this point, you do not seem to even understand what you thought you were
correcting in my post to azurnoir.

Your idea of what political power means in relationship to Abbas and the peace process, ( the original OP I posted )
evidently is too complicated for you...since you do not recognize that which your own government
is well aware of...Hamas's weakened position...they are delighted!

You could, if you like, go back and re-read the response I gave to azurnoir..or not.

We're done here.

[pelsar]

105. apparently you have little understanding of the local politics.... so I"ll do you a favor

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:48 AM - Edit history (2)

because you wrote:

Why would Abbas feel threatened by Hamas, when they have no power.

i was simply correcting that fact, that you actually believe that hamas is not a player. That they don't have influence, that they don't have power....Apparently for reasons that can only be assume are one of wishful thinking, you still believe so.

Furthermore, hamas, the PA and Israel all understand (as per my links) that Hamas has real political power and has the potential for more..just as they did in gaza and that they threaten both the PA and Israel.

from your posts you seem to prefer to ignore those who live in the environment and are very aware of what hamas has done and what they can do......its makes it easier to believe whatever you want to, just close your eyes and ignore what you don't want to read.

Now the Favor:
I've noticed a "cultural disconnect" between many of the posters here and what abbas, the PA and israelis think. The posters here think/believe only in the short term in terms of actual events. (Abbas not being threatened by Hamas), whereas in the middle east we think in terms of events that affect generations. Is hamas weak now? weaker than before?, but that doesn't mean they will be weak tomorrow and if so, Abbas may pay dearly for it...thats why he's threatened by them today, he, (we) think beyond today.

That cultural disconnect however is prevalent here, which is why there are not discussions of the different outcomes and what they mean. Which is why you can't even discuss the concept that hamas might take the west bank, which is why it couldn't even be discussed if hamas might taken gaza way back in 2006/7, and when they did, wasn't that a surprise (only to the naive and willfully blind, who apparently remain so today....)

i suspect its a combination of not even wanting to even think that your ideology might create a worse environment ..or that it can't, hence why even discuss it

[ConcernedCanuk]

98. "U.S.-brokered peace talks" - well doh!

.
.
.

USA ain't well known for spreading peace around the Globe.

Not dissing Obama, Kerry et al for their efforts,

but MIC/PNAC are NOT for peace.

No money/power in that.

(sigh)

CC