Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPalestinian television still glorifies terror attacks against Israel
At certain moments, while watching a scene from a program broadcast by Palestinian television on October 25 of last year, it is difficult to believe that this is the official television channel of the Palestinian Authority and the PLO, and not that of Hamas or the Islamic Jihad.
And yet, the program in question features a "field report" by Palestinian television from Tulkarem, in order to relate the wonders of the master terrorist Abbas a-Said, who is jailed in Israel and was sentenced to 35 life sentences.
This is a man who was considered at the beginning of the previous decade the head of the military wing of Hamas in the town, and responsible for two of the harshest suicide bombings Israel has ever known, including the attack on the Park Hotel in Netanya and on the night of the Passover Seder in 2002.
The reporter, who works at a program dedicated to the families of prisoners, did not spare the superlatives: "We are outside the home of the warrior hero, the commander, the lion of the prison, Abbas a-Said."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-television-still-glorifies-terror-attacks-against-israel-1.413485
leveymg
(36,418 posts)DUIC
(167 posts)And, when did they stop firing mortars and rockets into Israel? Terror attacks against Israel are nearly a daily occurrence. It may have something to do with the encouragement to commit acts of terror on the TV programs that they watch.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)own display of military impotence.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... Have killed 16 Israelis (civilians and children) and 6 Palestinians (including children) and maimed and wounded hundreds more.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Probably killed more Palestinian militants building them in auto shops, dropping them during transport in the back of old pickup trucks, and trying to set them off than Israeli farmers who might be randomly standing in the wrong place a few miles away when they land (assuming the thing even gets into the air without killing the launching crew).
They're bottle rockets -- a display of how unsymmetrical and disadvantaged the Palestinians really are -- not militarily effective.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)The basic hand grenade (M67) has 6.5 ounces of explosive fill. It is great for killing everyone in a small bunker or room. It can blow up cars. It has a lethal radius of 5 meters a casualty producing radius of 15 meters and fragments can disperse as far as 230 meters.
The Qassam III (current production) which you call a bottle rocket, carries 22 to 44 pounds/352-704 ounces of explosive in its warhead (depends on source quoted).
They are less than effective due to their lack of guidance systems, poor quality control, and operator ineptitude. However, they are more than 50X the explosive power of a pipe bomb or grenade.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Militarily ineffective, unless thrown into a confined room.
shira
(30,109 posts)I doubt you'd be as dismissive and insensitive as you are if you and your closest family and friends were under attack for years, getting used to thousands of these harmless toys...
shira
(30,109 posts)...with those bottle rockets and mortars. Encouraging other Israelis to hatred and incitement, rewarding terror operations, etc.
But when the Palestinians do it, you're not outraged - correct?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)In addition, if the walls kept the Israelis out of Gaza and the West Bank, as well as vis-a-versa, I'd be all in favor of them.
I really don't think one form of killing, just because it's a "smart bomb" dropped from an F-16, is really any smarter than the other - and, vis-a-versa.
The only thing that' symmetrical about war is stupidity.
shira
(30,109 posts)...that serves no military purpose, rather than use more advanced weaponry that has been proven to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties.
Words fail.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)More bang for the U.S. Aid Dollar? Would I be wrong?
I'd actually prefer both sides were fighting the next war with sticks and stones, or better not at all.
When Israel's responses to Palestinian bottle rockets are proportionate, I'll agree they're justified. Similarly, when Israel dumps all its nukes into the Dead Sea (well, not literally) then I'll consider Iran's nuclear program to be an aggressive act.
shira
(30,109 posts)And yes, I prefer ordinance that helps kill the most bad guys with as few civilian casualties as possible.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)They're futility weapons - just displays of impotence. Being such a humanitarian, concerned about civilian casualties, I'm surprised you don't like them. Would you prefer that they use Israeli arms - you, know the "ethical", "humanitarian" munitions used by the IDF?
In such a disproportionate conflict, one should prefer the ordinance that kills the fewest people on both sides.
DUIC
(167 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:05 PM - Edit history (1)
(actually, that's the Shavit, a li'l MRBM; the 3-stage Jericho III is a true ICBM, but Israel hasn't allowed a single photo of it to be released in the four years it's been operational - an open society in action)
Wiki: Jericho III
According to an official report which was submitted to the American congress in 2004,[7] it may be that with a payload of 1,000 kg the Jericho III gives Israel nuclear strike capabilities within the entire Middle East, Africa, Europe, Asia and almost all parts of North America,
Which brings us to the question, why does Israel need a missile that can drop MIRVed thermonuclear warheads on Washington, DC?
DUIC
(167 posts)Now compare that to your "bottle rockets" of RPGs and Qassam rockets.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)or DC along with parts of the states of Maryland, Virginia and Delaware.
Not an appropriate use, in any case.
DUIC
(167 posts)Why even suggest that the only tool palestinians have is rocks? Why not downgrade the "rocks" to minute particles are conjoined sand. Doesn't that sound better? I can read the headline now: "Bloodthirsty joos arrest sand throwing Arab peace protesters".
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Don't like the term, "Bottle rocket"? Okay, maybe, pictures of missiles will work for you:
Palestinian "missile" forces:
Devastation wrought by Qassam "missile" attack:
Missile-throwing Arab:
Palestinian Missile Forces
Devastation wrought by Qassam Missile Strike
Missile-throwing arab:
leveymg
(36,418 posts)I hope you don't believe that photo set does anything more that reemphasize my point that the forces and weapons are so disproportionate that it's laughable to call it a war. Except that there are people who get hurt and killed on both sides (well, mostly Palestinians) and that is an avoidable tragedy we should all be working to stop.
King_David
(14,851 posts)this kind of terrorism from say, Mexico, before it flattened Mexico city.
Crunchy Frog
(26,539 posts)It's why the Native Americans were practically obliterated.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)While your "bottle rockets" meme is total nonsense, how do you justify the Grads/Katyushas, as firecrackers?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)They seem to provoke which is entirely disproportionate to their effect. So is the military response by the IDF also disproportionate - which is the point.
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they do not love their oppressors, a double standard if ever there was
shira
(30,109 posts)As to your comment, I'm sure there are many Israelis who would say Palestine's supporters are obsessed with proving how horrible the Israelis are, due to the fact they don't love those who hate Jews and want them all dead.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so you predictably proclaim deflection with the also predictable they want to kill all the Jews hyperbole for thrown in for good measure, any PMW vids for us today, I can hardly wait
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you acknowledge that's happening?
Is it a significant problem in your view?
Do you merely disagree with it, or are you - as a progressive antiracist - offended and disgusted by it?
==========
That kind of hate and incitement to kill Jews existed long before Palestinians were oppressed by Israelis. In fact, before there was a Jewish state at all.
I'm pretty sure you can't acknowledge that either b/c it's a narrative killer and toxic to the cause (revolution).
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)
and no matter how much obsessively collected antiPalestinian propaganda you and and the groups you support obsessively collect you can not get around that; so is the stuff you post supposed to justify Israel's actions or what? It seems strange that you claim to so support a two state solution but yet demonize Palestinians every chance you get, even to the point of claiming that he PA (the body with whom Israel is negotiating) is genocidal
I acknowledge what is happening but what you refuse to acknowledge or even admit is that it does not happen in a vacuum, one can only assume you believe the demolitions Israel carries out in Silwan are justified as you never mention them or is this simply one more attempt at distraction>
In my book both actions are wrong how about yours shira any condemnation for Israel demolishing most recently a community center that catered to Palestinian women and youth ?
shira
(30,109 posts)...is just as bad as occupation/settler policy in the W.Bank and Gaza. The hate and incitement is due to Israeli actions in your opinion.
Well at least that's something, I guess. Pathetic, but something nonetheless.
To answer you, yes I'm for 2 states, but what kind of 2 state solution are you promoting in which that kind of Palestinian hatred and incitement to genocide continues to be promoted, sponsored, encouraged, and rewarded by the PA and Hamas? I'd like a real answer to that one.
I believe all hate incitement needs to be dealt with before any 2 state settlement. And no, it's not demonizing Palestinians by bringing up all that genocidal, antisemitic, neo-nazi style rhetoric. No more than legit criticism against Israel and some of its Arab hating settlers is demonization.
And no, I don't believe PMW style Palestinian hate and incitement is due to Israeli policy, since it existed well before 1948. I think it's pathetic that you place the blame for such genocidal Jew hatred on Jews themselves.
As to my own criticism and condemnation of Israeli policies, I don't have any problem condemning any of their immoral, unjust, or illegal actions. I support real liberals who advocate on behalf of both Israelis and Palestinians and fight against that. It appears that you, OTOH, either fear criticizing Palestinians or you're not at all bothered by what they do (like in the PMW videos).
Can you imagine that PMW crap happening in reverse, with Israelis guilty of all that? And the pro-Israel crowd here refusing to condemn it, nor show any disgust and outrage? Can you imagine them making excuses for it? No, I can't either. Now imagine how you guys look to us when none of that disturbs you.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:31 PM - Edit history (1)
do you criticize Israel's demoltions in Silwan? or is that one of the things you do not think wrong
and this little gem
"Can you imagine that PMW crap happening in reverse, with Israelis guilty of all that? And the pro-Israel crowd here refusing to condemn it, nor show any disgust and outrage? Can you imagine them making excuses for it? No, I can't either. Now imagine how you guys look to us when none of that disturbs you"
I can imagine, your doing it right now aren't you? ever wonder why Palestinians aren't collecting propaganda against Israel in the same obsessive manner? could it be because everyday reality speaks for itself?
shira
(30,109 posts)You can't condemn it. The worst, most disgusting brand of anti-Jew genocidal rhetoric, and words fail you. It's okay, you're not alone as all your progressive anti-racist friends prefer ignoring it too.
As to your question, I don't know enough about the Silwan demolitions to really comment. I see there's a lot of anti-Israel propaganda about it, but I'm having a difficult time finding Israel responding to the allegations. Usually when there's something bad going on like this in other nations, both sides of the issue are represented. It's only fair, and it's the very least we should expect from journalists and NGO's.
One thing I found from jpost is that a tent and small stable were demolished outside the community center...
http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=257700
Are we all supposed to be disturbed about that? Just asking...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as to your little jpost article of course Israel would never ever destroy anything that had value to Palestinians in Silwan or anywhere else else we all know that don't we I mean there are videos to prove otherwise are there?
shira
(30,109 posts)...or that a tent in front of it was demolished?
It appears that stories claiming the community center was demolished are false. It was a tent in front, right?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)The local missions of the European Union condemned on Friday the demolition of several structures of the Maada Community center in Silwan in occupied East Jerusalem.
"The EU missions in Jerusalem and Ramallah condemn the demolition of several structures of the Maada Community Center in the neighbourhood of Silwan (East Jerusalem)," a statement said.
The center, with its cultural and educational activities for youth and women, plays a vital role in the community of Silwan, one the most sensitive neighbourhoods of East Jerusalem, the statement said.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=461312
but JPost claims it was only a tent right I mean after all it was Palestinian what more could we expect, right?
shira
(30,109 posts)Simple question. Please answer with a yes or no.
=======
It's not just the JPost claiming it was a tent. Here's a pro-Palestinian source...
http://www.mecaforpeace.org/news/statement-demolition-silwan-madaa-silwan-creative-center
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)can you say the same? oh wait according to you it was only a tent
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:40 AM - Edit history (1)
...disturbed with demolitions in Silwan or area C than you are with the content in PMW videos. I mean, you blast PMW every time the source is used here and you've never once shown how concerned, disgusted, or disturbed you are with the content. Never. Not even once before that last post.
I asked a simple yes/no question and once again you failed to answer.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but once again not that's the one you wanted/needed, so once again you'll claim the question was not answered, its ok par for the courser and all
pelsar
(12,283 posts)whether its a really small bullet, a 60mm mortar, a kassam, an anti take missile, sniper fire, military grad rocket or the homemade variety or an ied...
all randomlly fired, almost daily all targeting israelis...their constant presence has caused israel to build radar stations, bomb shelters, anti rocket defenses through out the south and nearing middle Israel.
part of the lack of success is the constant pressure on them "freedom fighters" as the load up their rockets, prepare their mortars and attempt to plant an IED...the IDF has to spend enormous resources watching and attacking.
your excuses, while not surprising, are simply excuses for attempted murder and terrorism....
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)which features a Mickey Mouse-type character teaching the little ones to 'kill Jews'.