Israel’s Reality Is Incomprehensible to the World

[King_David]

Israel is perhaps one of the most controversial nations in the world; loved fervently by many, and hated just as intensely by many. However, what is most striking is that the reality that the tiny Middle-Eastern nation faces day in and day out is entirely incomprehensible to the rest of the world, and Israel’s supporters and detractors alike often seem to need a reality check.

In light of the most recent events, Israel’s haters should be the first to give their heads a shake. Militants in Gaza barraged Southern Israel with rockets Wednesday evening with some 60 rockets being launched with the intent to kill civilians. The group claiming responsibility, Islamic Jihad, claimed that the attacks were a response to a recent Israeli airstrike that killed 3 of its militants.

Morally speaking, one of the most important rules of war is to neither target non-combatants nor put them directly in harm’s way. As it has stood for over the past decade, groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and others have done both in such staggering and despicable ways that it is shocking. According to the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), one rocket strikes Israel for every 7 hours on average. That is incomprehensible to the world.

From deliberately firing from civilian positions to deliberately targeting elementary schools, it is hard to conceive the actions of Gaza’s militant groups as anything more than pure terrorism. Couple that with the routine border incursions and the constant efforts to smuggle weapons into the region, it makes America’s southern border look like a kid’s birthday at Chuck E. Cheese’s.

And what is most irritating is that otherwise rational people seem to support this terrorism, simply because it is against Israel. Regardless of the many reasons to dislike Israel (and there are many less bright points to the nation), there is no justification for the deliberate terrorist actions against civilians, nor is there any justification for supporting these actions. Stated simply, the world view that espouses hate towards the Jewish State does not see the incomprehensible reality on a daily basis. It is to be strongly doubted that Queers Against Israeli Apartheid have ever really considered what it would be like to be living in D.C. with terrorists in Baltimore attacking civilian targets over 3 times a day on average. They also probably never considered the appalling treatment of the LGBTQ community in Gaza versus the positive treatment of the same community in Israel.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/israels-reality-is-incomprehensible-to-the-world/

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

1. "Morally speaking, one of the most important rules of war is to neither target non-combatants

nor put them directly in harm’s way."

Do you really want to go there, King?

Do you want to talk about the morality of how many Palestinians have been killed by the IDF?

Do you want to talk about the morality of Israeli colonialism or apartheid?


Sure we can talk about rockets, but don't expect anybody to cheer on or condone the actions of the ones who used them against Israel.

[shira]

6. And yet, it's a FACT that the IDF is better than any other Western nation in times of war....

...when it comes to protecting civilians.

Here's Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan who served with NATO and UN forces and commanded troops in N.Ireland, Bosnia, and Macedonia, and participated in the Gulf War:

[Scootaloo]

9. Congratulations to Israel, for having the rosiest-smelling farts?

Seriously, "Hey, you know, we killed fewer innocent people in our totally needless and stupid war in densely-populated areas than the US did in Iraq!" really isn't a selling point. Especially when the government in question is so deeply devoted to ensuring the conflict continues.

[shira]

10. The US chose to go to war in Iraq. Israel defends itself by necessity against 1000's of rockets.

Of course, no difference to you.

[Scootaloo]

11. We've covered this ground before, Shira

Your argument is pretty much nonsense.

1) There aren't "thousands of rockets." The last time there were thousands of rockets was in 2008, during Operation Cast Lead. Unless George W. Bush is still president and nobody knows the ending of "Lost" in your personal universe, there aren't thousands of rockets.

2) Not everything Israel does qualifies as "defense." Some things, certainly. All things, definitely not.

3) There's just something grotesque about praising yourself for only killing over a thousand people during your military assault on a densely-packed captive civilian population. I mean really, what kind of mindset is that? Especially when it comes from sources like yourself who constantly talk about Israel's "restraint." It makes it sound as if the expectation is that israel should just annihilate millions of people, and we should all be thankful that it doesn't. It's perverse. By this logic we should be praising Hamas for "only" killing about seven hundred people, despite over twenty years of operations.

[shira]

12. Yes, it was 1000's of rockets

In 2006, there were 861 rockets fired into Israel.

In 2007, it was 896.

In 2008, there was a 6-month truce but during that time there were 223 rockets fired into Israel. In the week preceding Cast Lead, there were hundreds of rockets fired, so just in the 3 years prior to Cast Lead there were > 2000 rockets fired. And that's not including rockets going back further in time. They didn't start in 2006...

==========

What do u think America, the UK, France, or Germany would've done if their neighbors launched that many rockets into their countries?

Do you honestly believe they would have reacted with LESS restraint?

Keep it real.

[Scootaloo]

13. You said thousands. I said not since 2008. You seem to agree

What do u think America, the UK, France, or Germany would've done if their neighbors launched that many rockets into their countries?

Do you honestly believe they would have reacted with LESS restraint?

I don't recall the UK bombing the living shit out of civilian infrastructure in Belfast in response to the shit the IRA and affiliated groups pulled. Do you have citation for such an assault on Irish cities by the UK military, Shira?

[shira]

14. In 2012 alone, there were 2257 rockets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

In 2011, it was 680 rockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011

In 2010, it was 150 rockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010

That's over 3000 rockets since 2010.

==============================

And you know damned well any other Western country would have gone ape-shit had even a small fraction of those rockets crossed over their borders.

There's no western country out there that would have been LESS restrained than Israel has, and it's outrageously dishonest to pretend otherwise.

==============================

As to Hamas' restraint, when they fire rockets they intend to hit innocent targets. Israel does not. And yet you equate the 2 sides as though Israel is no better.

Nucking Futs.

[Scootaloo]

15. Thanks for the correction. Wow, brain-fart!

There's no western country out there that would have been LESS restrained than Israel has, and it's outrageously dishonest to pretend otherwise.

I'm... not sure you're actually saying what you're trying to say here. But on the off chance I'm mistaken (After all, you said it twice and emphasized here), yes - there are few Western nations with as little restraint as Israel shows.

As to Hamas' restraint, when they fire rockets they intend to hit innocent targets. Israel does not. And yet you equate the 2 sides as though Israel is no better.

Nucking Futs.

No, I'm not "equating the two sides." I'm saying that if we're going to give praise for "only" killing several thousand people, we ought to also give praise for "only" killing several hundred. I find the idea of awarding medals for not killing people to be very, very warped.

A nation should not demand praise for how many people it didn't kill. That's fucking perverted and that you feel that israel should be congratulated for "restraining itself" from conducting mass slaughter really gives insight into what sort of person you are.

[shira]

16. No awarding Israel medals, that's not what I'm saying...

What was written in the OP and what I'm countering are the outrageous accusations of Israel deliberately targeting civilians, committing intentional war-crimes, acting out of pure malice, etc.

That is, after all, what Colonel Richard Kemp was responding to at the UN.

The sheer amount of lies, slander, and demonization that Israel receives from its "critics" is astonishing.

[Jefferson23]

17. Propaganda, that is all you peddle, constantly. Lies and slander, indeed.

The documented record that defies Kemp and all the other tools is what will be
remembered by anyone who has taken the time to look.

[shira]

19. Richard Goldstone admitted Israel didn't do what it was accused of doing...

...meaning that they did not intentionally target civilians as a matter of policy.

That was an outrageous lie and slander intended to defame, demonize, and deligitimize Israel - to portray Israel as the new nazis, racist and genocidal.

A blood libel.

And whatever happened to the Goldstone Report? It's now a piece of shit in the dustbin of history. Exactly where it belongs.

[Scootaloo]

18. Yes, it absolutely is.

When you're singing high hosannahs to Israel for its "restraint" in only killing several thousand people, and claiming - as you did that "any other nation would go apeshit," you are expecting praise to Israel for [i[]not conducting full-out massacres against the Palestinians.

That's just fucking perverse and as i said, it is a clear incicator of what sort of person you are, Shira.

Now as for Israel deliberately targeting civilians...

Gaza's a pretty arid place, right? it's right at the juncture between the Sinai and Naqab deserts. Water's pretty scarce in that little corner of land, owing to geography and climate, and what watr there is is largely brackish, owing to hte fact it's a coastal plain with little precipitation. Add to this the stress of a population of 1.7 million people drawing from that tap and of course, the considerations of such a population environmentally.

Why do you not consider Israel's very deliberate attacks on Gaza's water purification plants an act of wrongdoing in any regard? They are not military infrastructure, they are wholly civilian. What's more they are infrastructure that the population depends on for survival - Arabs are no better at going without clean water than Jews are, I hope you understand. It could be accidental, but if we're going to accept that Israel has the most accurate, most perfect, most intent-to-detail military on the planet, such a "mistake" becomes less believable. Further is the issue that israel refuses to permit materials for reconstruction and repair from entering Gaza - while the concern about "dual use" materials could be legitimate, I'm pretty certain there's some option beyond a blanket prohibition, especially under the circumstances.

If you target needed civilian infrastructure, that's targeting civilians. In fact the entire blockade is a mass reprisal that targets civilians. And as I've explained to you before, when you use bombs and missiles in a densely-populated city, you are targeting civilians. It doesn't fucking matter if you wipe your own ass by calling htem "collateral" instead of "targets," the results are exactly the same.

Unless you want to argue that Hamas is in the clear if they start targeting IDF personnel and "just happen" to catch a bunch of civilians in the blast, too?

[shira]

20. As Richard Kemp said, no other country other than Israel ever did as much....

...in a war to protect civilians. That's a fact, actually.

So rather than pretend Israel is among the worst at targeting civilians, and let's face it - that's a preposterous lie intended to slander, smear, defame and demonize - the facts show the complete opposite. That type of blood-libel was used for centuries against the evil, wicked, conniving Jews, who although they seemed to be nice on the surface were somehow guilty of something, anything, even if it couldn't be proven. Same shit, different century.

Richard Goldstone had to finally admit it as well, and that was the main, most damning accusation in all the Goldstone Report of 2009-10. That report is now shit in the dustbin of history.

You guys have it completely backwards, and deliberately so.

Why is that?

[Jefferson23]

21. In your imagination, only. n/t

[shira]

22. I wish u were supplied with more accurate facts to bash Israel with...

As it is, you're just embarrassing yourself.

You guys don't only boycott Israel, you boycott facts. One of the very few BDS successes, actually.

Congrats.

[Jefferson23]

23. The documents are in the thousands from numerous human rights groups.

They're not going to disappear, ever.

Operation Cast Lead five years on: 'We are still demanding justice'

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/01/operation-cast-lead-five-years-are-still-demanding-justice-2014188116566380.html

[shira]

24. Again with that bullshit? The most important, most damning accusation in that entire report....

...was retracted by Goldstone.

What do u say to that?

[Jefferson23]

27. True, he did give Israel a gift, funny..he still has not made that visit to Israel.

Yet, there is no new evidence, as he claimed, to support his reconsideration.

*Israel has produced hundreds of drone images and if it really had one of the single most shocking incident of the conflict, the al-Samouni attack of Jan. 5, 2009, as Goldstone and Israel state, why has this image not been produced?

Your incessant propaganda will not change the record, even with the Goldstone retraction.
Part of the record, as history will remember it, will be the pressure he was placed under after the report..what the
Israeli government feared was a Jewish man of his caliber could lead them to the International Criminal court.

There is the first report he signed off on, the following pressure, then the retraction.

It's not hard to figure out the credibility of that retraction.

[shira]

29. LOL! n/t

[Jefferson23]

30. Yet, there is no new evidence, as he claimed, to support his reconsideration.

*Israel has produced hundreds of drone images and if it really had one of the single most shocking incident of the conflict, the al-Samouni attack of Jan. 5, 2009, as Goldstone and Israel state, why has this image not been produced?

[Fozzledick]

28. So once again you excuse Hamas for targeting civilians

while you vilify Israel for not targeting civilians.

It's not hard to see what your agenda is, but you seem to think that you can fool people by burying it under a mountain of bullshit. It doesn't really work, but it does make for a distinctive stench.

[azurnoir]

25. yet another video from a Rightist organization why is it you need to use the Rightwing here

so very frequently?

but enough on political leanings- you actually hauled this fluff out of moth balls for this again? Richard Kemp armchair expert on what went on in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in fact he was your favorite go to when you were attempting to justify the deaths and maining of civilians during that operation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x353206

[shira]

26. Numbers don't lie. Here's Kemp, from one of his speeches

Many people have contradicted my assertion about the IDF. But no one has been able to tell me which other army in history has ever done more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone. In fact my assertions about the steps taken in that conflict by the Israeli Defence Forces to avoid civilian deaths are inadvertently borne out by a study published by the United Nations itself. A study that shows that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymetric conflict in the history of warfare.

The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed. That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three-to-one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.

In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.

Don't boycott the facts, Azurnoir - okay?

[azurnoir]

31. No numbers don't lie according to B'tselem more than half of the Palestinians killed during OCL

were civilians

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

[shira]

33. Hamas confirmed the IDF's numbers on combatants killed. So nice try. n/t

[azurnoir]

32. and once again you fail to tell us why you find it nessasary to use so many Rightwing organizations

not to mention a man who attempted to smear Barack Obama as a Muslim during his 2008 presidential campaign and an organization who strategist also is a Republican could go on with this it seems a theme though but why is presuming of course you are a Democrat who posts on a progressive website

[shira]

34. Ma'an is more rightwing than Arutz-Sheva will ever be. Why do you use Ma'an? n/t

[Scootaloo]

38. Pretty easy question

There's a dearth of English-language sources from the perspective of Palestinian writers. Even the most often-used outlet for Palestinian news around here - 972mag - is primarily written with Israeli voices. So maan becomes a case of "take what you can get" due simply to a lack of options.

The same can hardly be said of sources presenting an Israeli point of view. The internet is just lousy with English-language takes on Israel. it comes in all varieties, from all angles, it's a panoply of English information about the state, quite a lot of it from people within the state itself.

We use maan because there's not many options.
You use the Algemeiner because...?

[shira]

39. So you guys use a far rightwing fascist rag like Maan b/c it's the best you've got....

Nevermind that it makes Algemeiner appear very liberal in comparison...Arutz-7 is centrist in comparison.

And you guys whine.....why?

[Scootaloo]

40. Ahem...

Go back. Read again. This time do more than just sound the words out, try to comprehend them.

[King_David]

2. From 2012

Gaza rockets cease after Israel pounds Hamas launchers, tunnels

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/17/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu/1710903/

[Scootaloo]

3. "Israel’s Reality Is Incomprehensible to the World"

Well... yeah, I can totally believe that statement.

Also, Guardian Liberty Voice is a starving writer puppy mill - basically the writers for the site get paid per-click, rather than per-piece. So, while I suppose it's cool that whatever blog you got this from is farming clicks for the writer... ew. Blogger sweatshops.

[King_David]

35. And ?

[Scootaloo]

36. And what?

I disapprove of the notion of paid-per-click arrangements for writers. Imagine, if you will, that fast food workers were paid by commission. Now imagine that people who order fast food, have real-world equivalent of adblock and cookie barriers. That's about the sort of payment situation these bloggers end up in.

...I can't make an observation about a cringe-worthy business model in I/P, or what?

[King_David]

37. Yes you may

Was just asking...

Not every exchange is adversarial .

[Violet_Crumble]

4. From the article...

Do you agree with this bit?

In the same sense, Israel’s most vehement supporters need their own reality check. Although the nation has problems that no other country faces, and although Israel often responds with more patience than most other nations would be capable of, it is far from perfect and criticism of the country can be entirely valid.

For instance, it must be understood that the conflict is in no way a fair one. With Israel’s ability to hit military targets with remarkable accuracy and ferocity, it can be difficult to compare the two. As well, with the IDF’s new Iron Dome system that can intercept the rockets launched from Gaza, the conflict lends itself to a more collected interpretation.

Furthermore, Israel does incite Palestinian tensions, which cannot be ignored. Settlement development, security fences, and the very fact that there is still no Palestinian State speak to some of the reasons why there is so much anger in the region.

If Israel’s supporters took a moment to empathize with Palestinians in Gaza, it would serve them well. It is impossible for most people to understand what being stateless in a real sense is like, and coupling that with the presence of a radically violent government like Hamas, the outlook for everyday citizens in Gaza is remarkably bleak. The threat of war being outside of citizens hands and the prospects of a bright economic future being entirely unreachable for most are situations that those who vehemently detest Palestinians often fail to understand.

[shira]

7. I don't agree with all that. Do u agree with the excerpt K-D posted? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

41. I agree with parts of it n/t

Some of it was just plain silly, like 'the world view that espouses hate towards the Jewish state' stuff. But he got the bit about rockets being fired into Israel right. He could have shrunk the whole thing down into a basic:

1. Firing rockets into Israel is terrorism and a violation of international law...
2. The conflict is a very lop-sided one militarily
3. Settlements, the separation barrier, and opposition to a Palestinian state does cause anger in the region.
4. The most vehement supporters of Israel and Palestine do need to take a reality check and discover themselves some empathy for both Israelis and Palestinians.

[King_David]

8. some of it yes ,

the dude was attempting to write a 'balanced' editorial.

[bemildred]

5. Sentimental mush. nt