Hamas, not Israel, is the real enemy of the Palestinians

[Fozzledick]

The real enemy of the innocent civilians of Gaza is Hamas, not Israel. Despite the fact that many Gazans voted for Hamas in the last Palestinian election, that terrorist organization has ill-served its constituents.

When Israel ended its occupation of Gaza in 2005, it left behind farm equipment and other material capable of feeding the population. Donor countries promised support, both financial and political if Gaza would live up to its potential as a Singapore on the Mediterranean. But instead the leaders of Gaza enriched themselves and used the remaining resources to build rockets instead of plowshares. They fired these rockets at Israeli civilians and devised a strategy of using their own innocent civilians as human shields against Israel’s anticipated responses to the rocket fire. Only after Hamas started firing rockets at Israeli civilians, did Israel impose a painful blockade against Gaza, which contributed to the area’s poor economic situation.

The Hamas human shield strategy—in combination with its refusal to allow its civilians to seek shelter in Gaza’s many tunnels, which are reserved for Hamas terrorists and commanders—has resulted in what appears to be a disproportionate ratio of civilians to combatants among Gazan casualties. Although the international media blames this unfortunate ratio on Israel, the civilian population of Gaza knows the truth: That Hamas deliberately seeks to increase the number of civilian casualties by not providing them shelter, while seeking to decrease the number of terrorist casualties by providing them the safety of tunnels and other secure areas.

Following the publication of the Goldstone Report in 2009, which catalogued the high proportion of civilians to combatant deaths among Gazans, loud complaints were heard from many ordinary citizens of Gaza: Why do you protect Hamas fighters, while exposing civilians? Hamas responded by claiming—quite ironically—that many of those counted as “civilians” by the Goldstone Report, especially among the police, were actually Hamas combatants.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.605573

[bunnies]

1. Is Israel the one bombing civilians or not?

Hamas is forcing them to push the button? Israel is ignorant? THIS is the defense?

Maybe we should send them a few more billion dollars so they can train a sniper or two. Yeah?

[Fozzledick]

3. No, Hamas is the one shooting at civilians.

Israel is the one shooting at the rockets being shot at them.

And Hamas is the one deliberately putting their own civilians in the way to get them killed to create sympathy. It's a crazy and cynical strategy, but some people fall for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113469388

[bunnies]

6. Let us not pretend that Israel is some non-intellignet third world country.

They dont need to blow up an entire apartment complex to kill the guy on the roof firing rockets. The only one "falling for it" is Israel. They're the ones killing civilians needlessly.

[Fozzledick]

7. Let's not pretend you don't know who started this war and who keeps it going.

Or that any country in the world wouldn't respond to such an attack.

[bunnies]

8. Who started this war?

Who went in and took over a land that wasnt theirs? Who put a bunch of people in prison and continuously takes and takes and takes and takes? Who bulldozes houses, trees, farm land that isnt theirs? Who beats children to death and sets them on fire?


Youre right. If Israel did to us what they do to "palestine" (lower case because they dont count as people) we would bomb the shit out of them.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Fozzledick]

9. Well, if you're gonna pretend you don't know, then I'm not gonna pretend you're worth talking to.

[bunnies]

10. I know you are but what am I.

Intelligent discussion personified.

[Fozzledick]

15. A silly bunny with a pancake on your head?

[bunnies]

28. you dont remember the meme?

[Fozzledick]

29. Just answering your question.

Gee, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Shaktimaan]

14. But why would Israel ever do any of that to us?

Israel didn't even do most of that to the Palestinians. At least not in the way you're portraying it.

8. Who started this war?

What war? This current skirmish?
Hamas. Israel responded to the killing of its soldiers who were sent in to destroy a tunnel, linking Gaza to Israel, that's been built by Hamas. Israel retaliated with bombs, Hamas retaliated with rockets. Then those three Israeli teens were killed and the rest you know.

The conflict?
Depends. The Jews did move en masse to Palestine and the Arabs there genuinely feared political disenfranchisement. But they're the ones who started the violence. Of that there's no disagreement.

So, your answer: who started it?
A: not Israel. Either these Palestinians or those Palestinians/other Arabs.

Who went in and took over a land that wasnt theirs?

Everyone.

Who put a bunch of people in prison and continuously takes and takes and takes and takes?

America.

But in this context, Hamas doesn't imprison anyone, they kill them outright without a trial. Many of Israel's prisoners are serious terrorists. Some, significantly less so. Regardless, Israel puts people in prison.

Who takes and takes and etc...? I don't know. Israel's returned over 90% of the land it occupied following the 67 and 73 wars. And, most importantly, it withdrew from Gaza under circumstances very favorable to the gazans. It was rewarded with renewed rocket fire mere hours afterward.

Consider that under Israel Palestine has it's first ever government, sovereignty over areas of the WB and all of Gaza, and the opportunity to build a functional state. For the Palestinians this is a first in all three counts. (Aka: Israel has taken less and given more than any of the Arab states with influence over the situation. Like Egypt or Jordan for example.)

Who bulldozes houses, trees, farm land that isnt theirs?

Israel.

Who beats children to death and sets them on fire?

Israeli terrorists who 99% of Israel hates and is terrified of. Criminals. Not Israel.

lower case because they dont count as people

I realize you're being facetious but you should know that it doesn't make this comment any less disgusting. Accusing someone of holding these beliefs is as much a tactic of dehumanizing them as saying it honestly would be.

Answer honestly. Has anyone here ever voiced an opinion remotely like that to you?

It's interesting... I hear people all the time accuse Israel's defenders of using the term "anti-semitism" callously, as a means to derail meaningful discussion. Myself, I've never heard it used in this way. I HAVE heard complaints about it though, often. You should be aware that by accusing all who disagree with you of "racism" you are employing this exact tactic. The same one I'm sure you've complained about at length.

Though I wonder if anyone's actually used it regarding you. And if so, were they derailing, (as you clearly are), or were they justified?

[FBaggins]

18. Nonsense. Let us not pretend to be so gullible

It doesn't matter which side you support, you can't pretend to be dense enough to miss that the "guy on the roof firing rockets" was put on that roof so that when the couter-battery fire came, it would kill civilians in the appartments below. He obviously could opperate from locations that didn't endanger civilians.

The statement "we use missiles to defend civilians while they use civilians to defend missiles" does a remarkable job of explaining what's going on. Hamas has no ability to win militarily... and no leverage with Israel to win diplomatically... this whole thing is a pitch to change Cairo's mind by influencing public opinion in Egypt.

That's why the title of the thread makes more sense than most would assume. Hamas needs Palestinian civilians to die... and they seem to have no compunction against setting it up.

[Turbineguy]

2. Maybe Israel could devise a strategy

to withhold what Hamas desires.

[Fozzledick]

4. They're pretty good at frustrating Hamas' desire to kill large numbers of Israelis.

But some people hate them for that too.

[Turbineguy]

23. Hamas uses Palestinians as pawns.

Palestinian deaths have propaganda value. Something to avenge.

[cali]

5. good grief. Israel immediately turned Gaza into a territory with no real autonomy that

swiftly became what is tantamount to an open air prison. And who penned this disingenuous rah rah Israel opinion? Why good old repulsive Alan Dershowitz.

<snip>

Randall Adams of The Harvard Crimson writes that, in the spring of 2002, a petition within Harvard calling for Harvard and MIT to divest from Israel and American companies that sell arms to Israel gathered over 600 signatures, including 74 from the Harvard faculty and 56 from the MIT faculty. Among the signatures was that of Harvard's Winthrop House Master Paul D. Hanson, in response to which Dershowitz staged a debate for 200 students in the Winthrop Junior Common Room. He called the petition's signatories antisemitic, bigots, and said they knew nothing about the Middle East. "Your House master is a bigot," he told the students, "and you ought to know that." Adams writes that Dershowitz cited examples of human rights violations in countries that the United States supports, such as the execution of homosexuals in Egypt and the repression of women in Saudi Arabia, and said he would sue any professor who voted against the tenure of another academic because of the candidate's position toward Israel, calling them "ignoramuses with PhDs."[34]

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz#On_Israel

He's an arrogant creep and he preaches what amounts to Supremacist cant.

[shira]

21. Dersh is one of the greatest defenders of civil rights. What have u done? n/t

[BillZBubb]

25. Dershowitz checks his morals at the door with respect to Israel.

He's like too many Americans in that regard.

[shira]

26. He's done more 4 civil rights than almost anyone else on the planet...

Meanwhile, you've done…..what?

[BillZBubb]

11. Israel in the real enemy of the Palestinians.

Israel occupies their land and intends to permanently steal it. Israel controls their lives. Israel mistreats them at every turn.

Hamas is a symptom, a reaction to Israeli policy.

[IronGate]

12. Wrong. nt.

[yeoman6987]

27. You can't be serious?

Israel has been very patient the entire time they have been on their land. I am surprised they just don't bulldoze the Hamas and be done with it. They are a very good country. United States and Israel are the best of the best!

[Loudly]

13. The world, including Jews, wants to help the Palestinians prosper in peace.

But Hamas possesses seemingly limitless peer group pressure to keep them invested in victimhood and a pointless, unending grudge.

Or maybe it's just Islam exerting the pressure.

[kjones]

16. Hmm, what is something that exerts pressure?

Something that pressurizes things?
Contains things, pushes them closer together?
Some sort of solid boundary which
compresses things, tighter and tighter together?

Oh right, walls and such.

But you're right, they probably just follow some
warmongering religion or something.

Invested in victimhood? Haha. I swear, I hear
"antisemitism" and the associated talking points
on here all the time as the standard response to
criticism. Some people have no business deciding
who is "invested in victimhood."

[BillZBubb]

19. The Israelis have made "victimhood" an artform.

Projecting that onto the Palestinians is a typical psychological trick.

[Loudly]

20. They emerged from the Holocaust, said Never Again, and built a nation to be their sanctuary.

Vastly different from what the Palestinians have done for themselves.

Instead, it's all about what the Palestinians have done TO themselves and attempted to blame others for.

[BillZBubb]

24. Keep telling yourself that little gem.

Others are occupying the Palestinians land. That's not blame, that's a fact. The occupiers enforce their will on the Palestinians. That's not blame, that's a fact.

The whole "never again" smacks of victimhood. Using that slogan to justify mistreating others isn't going to work. The way to make sure a Holocaust never happens again isn't to subjugate your neighbors, harass them, and steal their land.

[shira]

22. Israel would gladly help Gaza prosper if Gaza decided to live in peace w/ Israel.

And here's one of Israel most rightwing politicians encouraging it:

[LeftishBrit]

17. One can have more enemies than one - and the Palestinians certainly do

Israel. Hamas (who have so far killed more Palestinians than Israelis). Several of the Arab states...

But to say that Israel is 'not the enemy' especially at the moment is ridiculous. Ask the Israelis. They clearly regard Gaza as an enemy and are treating them as such.

[shira]

30. Bill Clinton: Hamas strategy is to have Gaza civilians killed

[cali]

31. Israel is the enemy of Israel. How on earth is Israel's decade after decade oppression

Palestinians good for the Israel in the long term? It creates more hatred and more enemies. Stealing Palestinian land, making a contiguous state impossible, the grinding humiliation imposed on Palestinians- all terribly counter-productive for Israel.