Israel/Palestine
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Last edited Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:02 AM - Edit history (1)
Is there anything left to say about Israel and Gaza? Newspapers this summer have been full of little else. Television viewers see heaps of rubble and plumes of smoke in their sleep. A representative article from a recent issue of The New Yorker described the summers events by dedicating one sentence each to the horrors in Nigeria and Ukraine, four sentences to the crazed génocidaires of ISIS, and the rest of the article30 sentencesto Israel and Gaza.
When the hysteria abates, I believe the events in Gaza will not be remembered by the world as particularly important. People were killed, most of them Palestinians, including many unarmed innocents. I wish I could say the tragedy of their deaths, or the deaths of Israels soldiers, will change something, that they mark a turning point. But they dont. This round was not the first in the Arab wars with Israel and will not be the last. The Israeli campaign was little different in its execution from any other waged by a Western army against a similar enemy in recent years, except for the more immediate nature of the threat to a countrys own population, and the greater exertions, however futile, to avoid civilian deaths.
The lasting importance of this summers war, I believe, doesnt lie in the war itself. It lies instead in the way the war has been described and responded to abroad, and the way this has laid bare the resurgence of an old, twisted pattern of thought and its migration from the margins to the mainstream of Western discoursenamely, a hostile obsession with Jews. The key to understanding this resurgence is not to be found among jihadi webmasters, basement conspiracy theorists, or radical activists. It is instead to be found first among the educated and respectable people who populate the international news industry; decent people, many of them, and some of them my former colleagues.
While global mania about Israeli actions has come to be taken for granted, it is actually the result of decisions made by individual human beings in positions of responsibilityin this case, journalists and editors. The world is not responding to events in this country, but rather to the description of these events by news organizations. The key to understanding the strange nature of the response is thus to be found in the practice of journalism, and specifically in a severe malfunction that is occurring in that professionmy professionhere in Israel.
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/183033/israel-insider-guide?all=1
4now
(1,596 posts)"Today I saw a picture of a weeping Palestinian man holding a plastic carrier bag of meat. It was his son. Hed been shredded (the hospitals word) by an Israeli missile attack apparently using their fab new weapon, fléchette bombs. You probably know what those are hundreds of small steel darts packed around explosive which tear the flesh off humans. The boy was Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra. He was four years old.
I suddenly found myself thinking that it could have been one of my kids in that bag, and that thought upset me more than anything has for a long time. "
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025353523
Mosby
(16,311 posts)Israel dropped bombs on UN shelters. Can't blame Hamas for that. Israel is not controlled by Hamas. Israel made a decision to drop bombs that they KNEW would kill civilians. The whole blame Hamas for everything bit is not working. It just makes the person who says it sound cruel and uncaring about the lives of those children.
This is how Israel continues to delegitimize themselves.
Mosby
(16,311 posts)If you really believe that Israelis are monsters who kill civilians on purpose then we have nothing to talk about.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have some things to sell you. Nice things that you'll love.
They were told numerous times the coordinates. They bombed anyway. Does that sound accidental? To me neither.
It's okay with me if you ignore me. But I am a warning to Israel of the future. My generation will not be shipping weapons or funds to Israel when we get the power. Israel lost us and keeps insulting our leaders, iur intelligence, and demanding our money. If we decide to speak out against the killing, they scream antisemite. Eventually that word will be so over used, it will lose all meaning.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)Stores and launches weapons from those shelters. That makes them legitimate targets.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)UN shelters full of women and children are ALWAYS ILLegitimate targets.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)If those women and children are being used as cover to either store weapons or launch attacks then their presence doesn't illegitimize attacks. At least not according to international laws of war. You could make the argument that such attacks lack the necessary ethical justification, but that line is hardly cut and dry itself.
The obvious question would be, if Hamas can use civilians as cover to ensure the storage of weapons and safe passage of militants, then they'll obviously exploit this advantage. In such a case how would Israel "legitimately" attack these otherwise valid targets?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Israel traps the civilians in with Hamas, Hamas shoots rockets, Israel bombs homes, apartments, hospitals, and schools. Then the blame hamas for the bombs they drop on kiddies.
Not working. It sounds stupid.
The point of human sheilds is that you don't kill them. If you killed them, you just murdered the hostages.
Besides, ISRAEL IS THE NATION WHOSE ARMED FORCED WERE USING HUMAN SHEILDS. THEY WENT TO COURT TO FIGHT FOR THE RIGHT TO CONTINUE THE PRACTISE.
If one is going to accuse others of wrongdoing, one needs to have clean hands. Otherwise we will see it as projection.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)When Hamas uses a building or area for making, storing or housing bombs, equipment or militants, they automatically make that place a legitimate target.
Right. It's a deterrence that doesn't seem to be working at all over the last few weeks.
Besides, ISRAEL IS THE NATION WHOSE ARMED FORCED WERE USING HUMAN SHEILDS. THEY WENT TO COURT TO FIGHT FOR THE RIGHT TO CONTINUE THE PRACTISE.
A case they lost in fact. Rightly so. It's a war crime. That case was in 2005. What's its bearing on the current topic? Are you defending its use or something?
If one is going to accuse others of wrongdoing, one needs to have clean hands. Otherwise we will see it as projection.
Seriously??? You believe that only pure and innocent states can lodge complaints tantamount to war crimes? Why? Do they not count otherwise??
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Why would the fact that Israel has been guilty of this same crime impact the validity of their complaint?
How does it affect the issue at hand... That using civilians as cover for weapons makes one responsible for their subsequent deaths or injuries. Is that not a valid argument?
MFM008
(19,808 posts)on hundreds of civilians in a UN school to get 1 or 2 hamas members with or with out rockets isn't just a moronic argument but a war crime.
You cannot "selectively" bomb babies and other children.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)But then that never occurred, now did it?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Unless we are revising history.
King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Are we pretending it never happened? Even Psaki had to say something.
http://www.alternet.org/world/what-israel-has-become-dropping-1000-lb-fragmentation-bombs-people-living-concrete-hovels
King_David
(14,851 posts)Any reputable source ?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You can google other sources for your self. I'm no serf, my liege.
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)anything about bunker busters being dropped on hundreds of people in a UN school. The article is in fact a lot of unsupported generalizations and hyperbole.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)UN schools were hit, that occurred. But you're actually saying that Israel targeted them specifically, using bunker busters no less, as part of some deliberate action.
Which is not the same as a tank or artillery returning fire, with shells landing in a field next to a school.
You do see the difference, correct?
You are of the opinion that Israel deliberately targeted civilians and children; that their deaths were neither collateral damage nor mistakes, but was the objective to begin with? Presumably the result of an actual policy decision?
For what reason would israel do such a thing?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They were told the coordinates. They admitted that they were sent the coordinates. They bombed anyway, even killing a few relief workers.
The reason Israel is losing support is because of tactics like this and ignoring public opinion.
Nobody owes support to Israel. And the nastiness coming from the leaders towards our leaders is enough to eventually cause us to withold our support.
I think they do what they do because they get away with it and are living in the past.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)LOL
bravenak
(34,648 posts)My generation already doesn't support Israel. I see that the leadrs do not care what we think, just want our money and UN protection. Israel is doing nothing to change minds and make allies of us.
And their supporters are rude; they consider us to be stupid antisemites for wanting the children of Gaza to live.
King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)You saw the polls. African americans are pulling support, hispanics support Israel even less, young people, sympathize more with Palestine, women less supportive than men, democrats are withdrawing support.
I spoke to my senator about it. He says he has been getting angry calls nonstop since Netanyahu did the " never second guess me again thing".
The arrogance is not playing well except with the right wingers. That should be cause for concern and re-evaluation.
4now
(1,596 posts)This is from Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
277 Palestinians had an unknown role.
The IDF does a very good job of killing civilians.
King_David
(14,851 posts)From firing the rockets onwards .
Then they will say stop the blockade and the rockets will stop . But there was no blockade before the rockets started .
4now
(1,596 posts)Blaming the victim describes the attempt to escape responsibility by placing the blame for the crime at the hands of the victim. Classically this is the rapist claiming his victim was "asking for it" by, for example, wearing a short skirt. Until recently, blaming the victim was largely how most rape victims experienced the investigation and litigation into claims of rape - often leading to women and men becoming unwilling to report it. It was not uncommon for a victim of rape to face a defense attorney who asked the victim about her (or, in the rare cases that a male victim went to court, his) sexual history, sexual preferences, drinking habits and even social status, all to paint her as less of a victim. In 2013, a Montana Judge said a 14 year old rape victim was equally responsible for her own rape because she "seemed older than her chronological age". A perfect example of blaming the victim.
Denying the victim is similar, but has a slight difference in that the perpetrator attempts to assert that he or she is the real victim. Denying the victim is generally less of a one-on-one scenario, and more topical, ie. "The real victims of the supposed 'mistreatment of women' are the children who have to grow up in homes where their mother wants to work instead of care for them." Denying the victims, in this sense, is often an attempt at historical revisionism, to make those charged with the crimes, look more or even totally innocent in the light of modern society.
Denial of the victim can also take the form of minimizing the number of victims or the severity of the offense. For example, the Roman Catholic Church played this game, when trying to claim the systematic child abuse by some priests were simply isolated events both individually and by priests at large. They also pushed the issue that the boys should not be described as "children," but "young men" to minimize the sense of how horrific these rapes were. Both blaming the victim and denying the victim are specific instances of neutralization.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Blaming_the_victim
Mosby
(16,311 posts)The Arab states keep them locked up in camps, refusing to give them the same right as other refugees.
Jordan and Egypt even took away their country completely, if it wasn't for Israel defeating the Arab armies the notion of a Palestinian state would be long gone.
4now
(1,596 posts)But it still doesn't change the fact that Israel murdered over 400 innocent children.
Death toll in Gaza - 217 were armed militants - 1396 were Palestinian civilians
Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
This is from Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
277 Palestinians had an unknown role.
The IDF does a very good job of killing civilians.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Does little to invalidate the point made. The victims you named are not actually the ones being blamed either. Hamas was the group who initiated the sustained rocket and mortar attacks following the Gaza withdrawal as well as being the group who constructed tunnels into Israel.
Your post implies that these acts had nothing at all to do with the siege or the following military actions, which is absurd.
Are you really saying that the current bombing of Gaza is not a response to Hamas' own attacks? That this action would have inevitably proceeded even if Hamas had refrained from launching thousands of rockets and digging tunnels into Israel?
4now
(1,596 posts)Based on... What?
4now
(1,596 posts)and killing anybody that he wanted.
Netanyahu is Israel"s George Bush.
They are not really fooling anybody anymore.
But unlike Iraq Gaza wasn't doing nothing. In fact it was the only place carrying out continuous attacks. It's also the only place that's being targeted by Israel. You think these two things are a coincidence?
Here. I'll ask this... WHY do you think that Israel would have launched this attack even in the face of gazan nonaggression?
4now
(1,596 posts)That is pretty obvious.
Israel's tired old lies are not working anymore.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)We want all that palestinian real estate for themselves, just without the Palestinians who already live there. So they clearly can't be allowed to stay there. And we obviously can't just roll over Palestine militarily, to kill or force em all out either. The stupid, moralists over in the rest of the world would blow a gasket. No, I guess I can't just go kill them all any more. At least not without a really boss excuse, that is!!!
We just have to pretend to offer peace plans, while behind the scenes we'll ramp up settlement building and price tag attacks. There'll be no chance of them misunderstanding our true intentions.
Then we just have to set up a small instigation... Kidnapping, rockets, bombing maybe; doesn't matter. It'll be the excuse we need to finally exterminate those pesky Palestinians for good. Then we'll own their precious Gaza, West Bank and gas field.
--------
Something like this?
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Ref: "" We just have to pretend to offer peace plans, while behind the scenes we'll ramp up settlement building and price tag attacks. ""
9 Months of Talks, 9 Months of Settlement Development
During the 9 months of Secretary Kerrys efforts in the region, the Netanyahu Government promoted plans and tenders for at least 13,851 housing units in the settlements and East Jerusalem -
an average of 50 units per day and 1,540 units per month.
Source: http://peacenow.org.il/eng/9Months
Info on " price tag attacks " .....
http://972mag.com/price-tag-attacks-its-not-about-the-graffiti/92064/
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Why do you think Israel would do that?
And not "WHYYY do you think Israel wants to do that?
But WHAAT makes you think that Israel would do that?
4now
(1,596 posts)I am sure that if you were really curious and wanted to know the answers you could find out without my help.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Shaktimaan is ignoring me 4now ?
Ask yourself why .
Israeli
(4,151 posts)The one inside the green line or the one outside the green line ?
The one inside the wall or the one outside the wall ?
The followers of the dream of a Greater Israel will do anything to keep what we call the Wild West Bank .....and what they call Judea And Samaria, theirs .....anything ...including the assassination of Rabin .
Did you miss this one ??? :.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113478262
King_David
(14,851 posts)You actually believe that ?
MFM008
(19,808 posts)they keep an iron foot on the neck of those people like a medieval siege.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)In 2005, following the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, in what way was Israel "keeping an iron foot on their necks?"
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)No, of course not. Shaktimaan, the occupation of Gaza never ended. All that ended was the settlement project in Gaza.
And of course with no Jews to throw money at in Gaza, Israel simply rolled up and abandoned its obligations to the territory it occupied.
Now it's just a turkey shoot for every time likud needs to appease its right-wing coalition buddies.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Gaza controlled its own borders of course. The air went to Israel. The sea was a tie. And "overland routes" doesn't sound like a real thing, so it's probably still up for grabs.
More importantly though, occupation only extends to areas under the direct authority of the occupying power. And in Gaza, theres no question that Hamas exerted uncontested control over the entirety of the strip. Politically, economically and militarily. No Israeli presence existed at all.
So it stopped shipping supplies like food, oil, electricity, fresh water, building supplies, and so on?
Is that when they closed the border to migrant workers too? Preventing palestinian day laborers from entering Israel for jobs?
What obligations were you thinking of, specifically?
What sort of obligations do you believe a non-occupying nation is responsible for anyway?
Should Israel have kept paying gaza's auto insurance for the next few years? If Gaza goes to an expensive private school, should Israel take the loans out in Israel's name to protect gaza's credit, or is that just, like, really too much?
What if he's just a pain in the ass, lousy kid, and Israel just wants him gone? Is Israel obligated to continuing to support Gaza regardless of his actions?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I suggest you go re-read some of those discussions.
As I said - and as you are affirming - Israel's "pullout" was simply a scheme by which to maintain control, while abrogating its own responsibilities.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Your argument unfortunately hinges on the idea that Israel's closing of its own borders equates to effective control over all of Gaza. This requires believing that Israel has more effective authority within the strip than either the PA or Hamas, which makes little sense to any observer.
4now
(1,596 posts)Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
This is from Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
277 Palestinians had an unknown role.
The IDF does a very good job of killing civilians.
I think you might have misunderstood my post. You accused Israel of holding Gaza down by boot on neck, even after Israel's withdrawal in 2005.
In the years following the withdrawal how was Gaza being oppressed?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The seige, the blockade, slow motion genocide, starvation, shooting fishermen, open air prison, etc.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Perhaps malnourishment would have been a better word choice, although spellcheck says it's not a word.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)to clean water is a serious problem.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Everything you listed occurred years later, (aside from genocide and starvation, which never occurred), in response to thousands of rockets. I'm specifically talking about post-2005 withdrawal. Before the siege started in 2007.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)However, Israeli control in Gaza two years after disengagement is total; indeed, the very text of the disengagement plan explicitly provides for much of the current strangulation, ensuring that Israel will guard and monitor the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip, will continue to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space, and will continue to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip. [6] In this way, Israel has fired upon Palestinian fishermen, has blocked the reconstruction of Yasser Arafat International Airport, and continues to exercise authority over all border regimes (upon which a blanket closure has been in effect since June 2007). Beyond this level of control, there is an abundance of academic and legal evidence indicating the continuation of Israels effective control in Gaza and thus, a continuation of the occupation under international law.
Yet the greatest evidence of Israeli power in Gaza lies in its power to wreak economic devastation as a matter of policy. Despite the disengagement plans pretensions to improve the Palestinian economy, its intentions to the opposite are all too clear. Two years after disengagement, the already abysmal economic conditions in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated in virtually all aspects in large part because of the economic boycott imposed by the Quartet and spearheaded by the US after Hamas seized control of the strip last June. Since that time, any semblance of a manageable economy attempting to break through unfavorable conditions has been killed by the total closure of Gazas borders imposed by the Israeli authorities.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-strip-disengagement-two-years/7228
Hope that helps!
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)The main factor substantiating the claim that Israel maintains effective control over Gaza is economic, via the border closures and boycott enacted by the EU preventing access to foreign markets.
I think you'll agree that Israel has every right to close any crossing it shares with Gaza without then assuming responsibility for Gaza as a whole, regardless of the economic impact it might have. Israel has no responsibility for effects of boycotts enacted by the EU or border closures by Egypt. Nor does it have control over the passage of goods or people through Egypt or sea routes, this preceding the naval siege.
This article effectively blames gaza's stagnant economy on Israeli actions alone; actions which undeniably played a dominant role, but still fall under the category of reasonable sovereign actions that fall far short of demonstrating "effective control" over Gaza itself. The ability to ruin gaza's economy primarily by refusing to play an active role helping them, by providing employment, export opportunities, etc., can't be construed as an "occupation" merely because the effects are so deleterious. Control means control. Not affect.
Additionally, this articles main beefs begin with the closures and boycotts enacted in 2007. The years beforehand? 2005-2007?
Is the closing of shared border crossings and control of airspace enough to meet the characteristics of an occupation?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Then after that, you can say the cause of death was a mystery...
And then, maybe they didn't even die at all! More Pallywood!
No, Mosby, those innocent children died because Israel dropped bombs on them.
Mosby
(16,311 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:25 PM - Edit history (1)
Play whatever games you want, the facts here are pretty simple and everyone knows it.
Eta: to clarify, Israel targets Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza, I was not implying in any way that the IDF consider civilians legitimate targets.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)hamas isn't in charge of Israel's military Mosby. Hamas are not puppet masters. There are no Hamas Manchurian candidates pulling poor israel along by the strings and forcing it to do these horrible things.
Every choice israel and Israelis make, is a choice they made out of a desire to make that particular choice.
4now
(1,596 posts)and now you try to blame others.
If it wasn't so sick it would be funny.
King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)After using human shields for so long, Israel is trying to deflect from their own disgusting practises.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Hamas started it with continuous rockets , had a chance to stop with a ceasefire offered by Egypt in the 1st week.
There was no Gaza blockade until the rocket starts .
Those are the facts.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)See how that works? Oppress people, they will resist you. By any means necessary. Our founding fathers were considered terrorists.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Only after the very last Jew left Gaza did the rockets start.
There was no blockade until then .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They are blockaded in and under the control of Israel. Until they have self determination, without israel controlling it's borders; air space and food supply, Gaza is occupied. As long as Israel retains the right to go in to Gaza at will and terrorize it's people, Gaza is occupied.
King_David
(14,851 posts)What you consider .
The very last Jew left Gaza in 2005 and there was no blockade . As well there was major greenhouses in place before they were destroyed in order to make pipe bombs and rockets from their scrap.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Israel has never completely left Gaza alone. Isreal acts like it was doing Gaza a favor by dismantling those illigitimate settlements. Israel always reserves it's self the right to harass Palestinians. Israel should have never been there.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)It seems like it doesn't really matter what Israel does, as there'll always be some justification for groups like Hamas to attack it. Even when Israel withdrew entirely, the results were increased terrorism. Gaza had control over their borders, free elections, and autonomy over the entire strip when the renewed rocket fire began.
whosinpower1
(85 posts)whosinpower1
(85 posts)Rocket fire began in 2000, prior to disengagement(2005), and prior to Hanas being elected.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The rockets caused the siege.
4now
(1,596 posts)"
we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesels abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israels wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."
The letter also blames the United States of aiding Israel in its Gaza operation, and the West in general of protecting Israel from condemnation.
"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads.
The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072
King_David
(14,851 posts)Does this have something to do with the colors they use?
4now
(1,596 posts)A few days ago some 300 Holocaust survivors placed an ad in the New York Times condemning the massacre in Gaza. My colleague from Local Call, John Brown, has selected a few of the responses on Facebook that Israelis posted in response to the ad.
Ive translated a few from Johns selection:
David Cohen: Those arent Holocaust survivors those are probably collaborators with the Nazis.
Shmulik Halphon: Hes invited to go back to Auschwitz.
Itzik Levy: These are survivors who were Kapos. Leftist traitors. Thats why they live abroad and not in the Jewish State.
Vitali Guttman: Enough, they should die already. They survived the Holocaust only to do another Holocaust to Israel in global public opinion?
Meir Dahan: No wonder Hitler murdered 6 million Jews because of people like you youre not even Jews youre disgusting people a disgrace to humanity and so are your offspring you are trash.
Asher Solomon: Its a shame Hitler didnt finish the job.
Katy Morali: Holocaust survivors who think like this are invited to go die in the gas chambers.
http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/israelis-on-facebook-wish-death-for-holocaust-survivors-against-protective-edge/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"A few days ago some 300 Holocaust survivors placed an ad ..."
That is not true, but sloppy reporting is typical of 972mag.
Also taking random idiots Facebook posts and "reporting" on them as if they mean something.
It'd be like writing on article about freeper comments.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you do realize ad is short for advertisement? or is it "their descendents" you're claiming makes it a lie? Without the survivors these descendents would not exist making them also survivors
The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times.
It was in response to an advertisement by Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel which compared the Palestinian militant movement Hamas to the Nazis.
More than 2,000 people have been killed in Gaza in the ongoing conflict.
Most of them were civilians. On the Israeli side, 68 people - mainly soldiers - have been killed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28916761
Because the BBC link says "300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants" which, although possibly misleading, does not directly lie and say that it was 300 Holocaust survivors who took out the ad as the 972mag article does.
The vast majority of the signatories were not Holocaust survivors (and not identified as such in the ad) but rather people who are related to them (children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and other relatives).
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you knew that too so why mention it?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Though I'm sure that won't stop more articles from being written on the subject.
Response to Mosby (Original post)
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