Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Mosby

(16,311 posts)
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:46 PM Aug 2014

An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth

Last edited Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:02 AM - Edit history (1)

Is there anything left to say about Israel and Gaza? Newspapers this summer have been full of little else. Television viewers see heaps of rubble and plumes of smoke in their sleep. A representative article from a recent issue of The New Yorker described the summer’s events by dedicating one sentence each to the horrors in Nigeria and Ukraine, four sentences to the crazed génocidaires of ISIS, and the rest of the article—30 sentences—to Israel and Gaza.

When the hysteria abates, I believe the events in Gaza will not be remembered by the world as particularly important. People were killed, most of them Palestinians, including many unarmed innocents. I wish I could say the tragedy of their deaths, or the deaths of Israel’s soldiers, will change something, that they mark a turning point. But they don’t. This round was not the first in the Arab wars with Israel and will not be the last. The Israeli campaign was little different in its execution from any other waged by a Western army against a similar enemy in recent years, except for the more immediate nature of the threat to a country’s own population, and the greater exertions, however futile, to avoid civilian deaths.

The lasting importance of this summer’s war, I believe, doesn’t lie in the war itself. It lies instead in the way the war has been described and responded to abroad, and the way this has laid bare the resurgence of an old, twisted pattern of thought and its migration from the margins to the mainstream of Western discourse—namely, a hostile obsession with Jews. The key to understanding this resurgence is not to be found among jihadi webmasters, basement conspiracy theorists, or radical activists. It is instead to be found first among the educated and respectable people who populate the international news industry; decent people, many of them, and some of them my former colleagues.

While global mania about Israeli actions has come to be taken for granted, it is actually the result of decisions made by individual human beings in positions of responsibility—in this case, journalists and editors. The world is not responding to events in this country, but rather to the description of these events by news organizations. The key to understanding the strange nature of the response is thus to be found in the practice of journalism, and specifically in a severe malfunction that is occurring in that profession—my profession—here in Israel.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/183033/israel-insider-guide?all=1

88 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth (Original Post) Mosby Aug 2014 OP
Its time to forget about the 400+ innocent children that Israel murdered 4now Aug 2014 #1
All of those innocent children are dead because of Hamas. Mosby Aug 2014 #2
Um, no bravenak Aug 2014 #3
Israel does not kill civilians on purpose Mosby Aug 2014 #4
If you think bombing shelters is not deliberate.... bravenak Aug 2014 #7
Hamas sabbat hunter Aug 2014 #11
really link it up for us please? are you speaking of the VACANT schools that were used? n/t azurnoir Aug 2014 #12
No, Sir. bravenak Aug 2014 #14
Are they? Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #22
This line of attack is ridiculous. bravenak Aug 2014 #24
What's ridiculous? Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #84
When you have dirty hands, it's hard to trust your motivations. bravenak Aug 2014 #85
Not sure what you mean. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #86
to drop bunker busters MFM008 Aug 2014 #28
Of course... Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #33
Um, yes it did. bravenak Aug 2014 #56
Link it up then . King_David Aug 2014 #68
Really David! bravenak Aug 2014 #70
I can't read that it's so badly written, it's too difficult to understand . King_David Aug 2014 #72
Alternet is a great source. bravenak Aug 2014 #73
There is nothing in your article that says Dick Dastardly Aug 2014 #88
No. It didn't. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #87
So... Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #16
That is a question for the leaders of Israel. bravenak Aug 2014 #26
Yes Israel was told that there were civilians in those shelters. lumpy Aug 2014 #81
What a heavy burden speaking for a whole generation, King_David Aug 2014 #20
That's rich coming from the guy who decides other peoples catagories. bravenak Aug 2014 #23
Again , speaking for a whole generation . King_David Aug 2014 #25
Stated like a "true king", your grace. bravenak Aug 2014 #27
Death toll in Gaza - 217 were armed militants - 1396 were Palestinian civilians 4now Aug 2014 #8
Yes it's true King_David Aug 2014 #5
Blaming the victim is what murderers and other sickos do 4now Aug 2014 #6
Palestinians are being victimized by their own Arab brethren Mosby Aug 2014 #13
You can try a distraction technique - but Israel murdered over 400 innocent children. 4now Aug 2014 #15
Your post... Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #17
Of course 4now Aug 2014 #18
Really? Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #19
Just as there was nothing Iraq could do to stop George Bush from invading their country 4now Aug 2014 #31
Ahh. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #35
They want to continue stealing Palestinian land, water, gas reserves 4now Aug 2014 #37
Ohhhh. I see. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #40
Yup .... Israeli Aug 2014 #42
Oh. I'm still curious. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #41
Google is your friend 4now Aug 2014 #43
Have you noticed that .... Israeli Aug 2014 #49
Which Israel Shaktimaan ? Israeli Aug 2014 #45
Seriously ? King_David Aug 2014 #69
Israel has never withdrawn MFM008 Aug 2014 #29
Really? Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #32
Gaza controlled its own borders, airspace, territorial waters, overland routes, etc? Scootaloo Aug 2014 #36
No idea. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #46
We've discussed the obligations of an occupying power before Scootaloo Aug 2014 #60
I recall those discussions. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #79
Death toll in Gaza - 217 were armed militants - 1396 were Palestinian civilians 4now Aug 2014 #44
Ooohhh Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #48
You know the answer to this oberliner Aug 2014 #52
Yes. Minus starvation, but food insecure. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #55
Being food insecure can lead to starvation oberliner Aug 2014 #63
Food insecure gives an accurate description, I feel. At least before the war began, right now access Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #65
I do know the answer. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #74
Between 2005 and 2007 oberliner Aug 2014 #75
According to your link... Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #78
Why not just say they killed themselves, Mosby? cut out the middle man altogether Scootaloo Aug 2014 #34
israel dropped bombs on them because hamas shot rockets at israel. Mosby Aug 2014 #38
And you just admitted it. because Israel dropped bombs on them Scootaloo Aug 2014 #39
You said it - "Israel dropped bombs on them" and killed over 400 innocent children 4now Aug 2014 #47
And the misery all caused by Hamas nt King_David Aug 2014 #54
Caused by IDF, Likud, and netanyahu and his supporters. bravenak Aug 2014 #57
Sounds like an emotional soundbite but the truth is King_David Aug 2014 #58
There were no rockets until the occupation. bravenak Aug 2014 #59
Rockets started as occupation of Gaza ended King_David Aug 2014 #64
I consider Gaza occupied. bravenak Aug 2014 #66
I'm sure everyone will take under advisement King_David Aug 2014 #67
I thought we were talking about current events? bravenak Aug 2014 #71
What's your point? Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #83
That is not factually true. Nt whosinpower1 Aug 2014 #77
Actually- whosinpower1 Aug 2014 #76
There was no blockade King_David Aug 2014 #80
Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for 'Gaza massacre,' 4now Aug 2014 #9
"Sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, " King_David Aug 2014 #21
So what 4now Aug 2014 #30
Israelis on Facebook wish death for Holocaust survivors against 'Protective Edge' 4now Aug 2014 #10
First sentence of first paragraph is a lie oberliner Aug 2014 #51
I guess BBC's lying too? azurnoir Aug 2014 #53
Nope oberliner Aug 2014 #61
yes I know and I already addressed that and unless you did not read past the title line azurnoir Aug 2014 #62
Answer to question in first paragraph: No oberliner Aug 2014 #50
Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #82

4now

(1,596 posts)
1. Its time to forget about the 400+ innocent children that Israel murdered
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:55 PM
Aug 2014

"Today I saw a picture of a weeping Palestinian man holding a plastic carrier bag of meat. It was his son. He’d been shredded (the hospital’s word) by an Israeli missile attack – apparently using their fab new weapon, fléchette bombs. You probably know what those are – hundreds of small steel darts packed around explosive which tear the flesh off humans. The boy was Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra. He was four years old.
I suddenly found myself thinking that it could have been one of my kids in that bag, and that thought upset me more than anything has for a long time. "
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025353523

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
3. Um, no
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:18 PM
Aug 2014

Israel dropped bombs on UN shelters. Can't blame Hamas for that. Israel is not controlled by Hamas. Israel made a decision to drop bombs that they KNEW would kill civilians. The whole blame Hamas for everything bit is not working. It just makes the person who says it sound cruel and uncaring about the lives of those children.

This is how Israel continues to delegitimize themselves.

Mosby

(16,311 posts)
4. Israel does not kill civilians on purpose
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:23 PM
Aug 2014

If you really believe that Israelis are monsters who kill civilians on purpose then we have nothing to talk about.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
7. If you think bombing shelters is not deliberate....
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:36 PM
Aug 2014

I have some things to sell you. Nice things that you'll love.

They were told numerous times the coordinates. They bombed anyway. Does that sound accidental? To me neither.

It's okay with me if you ignore me. But I am a warning to Israel of the future. My generation will not be shipping weapons or funds to Israel when we get the power. Israel lost us and keeps insulting our leaders, iur intelligence, and demanding our money. If we decide to speak out against the killing, they scream antisemite. Eventually that word will be so over used, it will lose all meaning.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
22. Are they?
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 09:33 PM
Aug 2014

If those women and children are being used as cover to either store weapons or launch attacks then their presence doesn't illegitimize attacks. At least not according to international laws of war. You could make the argument that such attacks lack the necessary ethical justification, but that line is hardly cut and dry itself.

The obvious question would be, if Hamas can use civilians as cover to ensure the storage of weapons and safe passage of militants, then they'll obviously exploit this advantage. In such a case how would Israel "legitimately" attack these otherwise valid targets?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
24. This line of attack is ridiculous.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:16 PM
Aug 2014

Israel traps the civilians in with Hamas, Hamas shoots rockets, Israel bombs homes, apartments, hospitals, and schools. Then the blame hamas for the bombs they drop on kiddies.

Not working. It sounds stupid.

The point of human sheilds is that you don't kill them. If you killed them, you just murdered the hostages.

Besides, ISRAEL IS THE NATION WHOSE ARMED FORCED WERE USING HUMAN SHEILDS. THEY WENT TO COURT TO FIGHT FOR THE RIGHT TO CONTINUE THE PRACTISE.

If one is going to accuse others of wrongdoing, one needs to have clean hands. Otherwise we will see it as projection.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
84. What's ridiculous?
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:54 AM
Aug 2014

When Hamas uses a building or area for making, storing or housing bombs, equipment or militants, they automatically make that place a legitimate target.

The point of human sheilds is that you don't kill them. If you killed them, you just murdered the hostages.


Right. It's a deterrence that doesn't seem to be working at all over the last few weeks.


Besides, ISRAEL IS THE NATION WHOSE ARMED FORCED WERE USING HUMAN SHEILDS. THEY WENT TO COURT TO FIGHT FOR THE RIGHT TO CONTINUE THE PRACTISE.


A case they lost in fact. Rightly so. It's a war crime. That case was in 2005. What's its bearing on the current topic? Are you defending its use or something?


If one is going to accuse others of wrongdoing, one needs to have clean hands. Otherwise we will see it as projection.


Seriously??? You believe that only pure and innocent states can lodge complaints tantamount to war crimes? Why? Do they not count otherwise??

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
86. Not sure what you mean.
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:59 PM
Aug 2014

Why would the fact that Israel has been guilty of this same crime impact the validity of their complaint?

How does it affect the issue at hand... That using civilians as cover for weapons makes one responsible for their subsequent deaths or injuries. Is that not a valid argument?

MFM008

(19,808 posts)
28. to drop bunker busters
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:35 PM
Aug 2014

on hundreds of civilians in a UN school to get 1 or 2 hamas members with or with out rockets isn't just a moronic argument but a war crime.
You cannot "selectively" bomb babies and other children.

Dick Dastardly

(937 posts)
88. There is nothing in your article that says
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:26 PM
Aug 2014

anything about bunker busters being dropped on hundreds of people in a UN school. The article is in fact a lot of unsupported generalizations and hyperbole.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
87. No. It didn't.
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:23 PM
Aug 2014

UN schools were hit, that occurred. But you're actually saying that Israel targeted them specifically, using bunker busters no less, as part of some deliberate action.

Which is not the same as a tank or artillery returning fire, with shells landing in a field next to a school.

You do see the difference, correct?

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
16. So...
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 08:05 PM
Aug 2014

You are of the opinion that Israel deliberately targeted civilians and children; that their deaths were neither collateral damage nor mistakes, but was the objective to begin with? Presumably the result of an actual policy decision?

For what reason would israel do such a thing?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
26. That is a question for the leaders of Israel.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:22 PM
Aug 2014

They were told the coordinates. They admitted that they were sent the coordinates. They bombed anyway, even killing a few relief workers.

The reason Israel is losing support is because of tactics like this and ignoring public opinion.

Nobody owes support to Israel. And the nastiness coming from the leaders towards our leaders is enough to eventually cause us to withold our support.

I think they do what they do because they get away with it and are living in the past.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
23. That's rich coming from the guy who decides other peoples catagories.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:10 PM
Aug 2014

My generation already doesn't support Israel. I see that the leadrs do not care what we think, just want our money and UN protection. Israel is doing nothing to change minds and make allies of us.
And their supporters are rude; they consider us to be stupid antisemites for wanting the children of Gaza to live.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
27. Stated like a "true king", your grace.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:28 PM
Aug 2014

You saw the polls. African americans are pulling support, hispanics support Israel even less, young people, sympathize more with Palestine, women less supportive than men, democrats are withdrawing support.

I spoke to my senator about it. He says he has been getting angry calls nonstop since Netanyahu did the " never second guess me again thing".

The arrogance is not playing well except with the right wingers. That should be cause for concern and re-evaluation.

4now

(1,596 posts)
8. Death toll in Gaza - 217 were armed militants - 1396 were Palestinian civilians
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:36 PM
Aug 2014
Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
This is from Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
277 Palestinians had an unknown role.

The IDF does a very good job of killing civilians.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
5. Yes it's true
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:29 PM
Aug 2014

From firing the rockets onwards .

Then they will say stop the blockade and the rockets will stop . But there was no blockade before the rockets started .

4now

(1,596 posts)
6. Blaming the victim is what murderers and other sickos do
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:32 PM
Aug 2014

Blaming the victim describes the attempt to escape responsibility by placing the blame for the crime at the hands of the victim. Classically this is the rapist claiming his victim was "asking for it" by, for example, wearing a short skirt. Until recently, blaming the victim was largely how most rape victims experienced the investigation and litigation into claims of rape - often leading to women and men becoming unwilling to report it. It was not uncommon for a victim of rape to face a defense attorney who asked the victim about her (or, in the rare cases that a male victim went to court, his) sexual history, sexual preferences, drinking habits and even social status, all to paint her as less of a victim. In 2013, a Montana Judge said a 14 year old rape victim was equally responsible for her own rape because she "seemed older than her chronological age". A perfect example of blaming the victim.

Denying the victim is similar, but has a slight difference in that the perpetrator attempts to assert that he or she is the real victim. Denying the victim is generally less of a one-on-one scenario, and more topical, ie. "The real victims of the supposed 'mistreatment of women' are the children who have to grow up in homes where their mother wants to work instead of care for them." Denying the victims, in this sense, is often an attempt at historical revisionism, to make those charged with the crimes, look more or even totally innocent in the light of modern society.

Denial of the victim can also take the form of minimizing the number of victims or the severity of the offense. For example, the Roman Catholic Church played this game, when trying to claim the systematic child abuse by some priests were simply isolated events both individually and by priests at large. They also pushed the issue that the boys should not be described as "children," but "young men" to minimize the sense of how horrific these rapes were. Both blaming the victim and denying the victim are specific instances of neutralization.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Blaming_the_victim

Mosby

(16,311 posts)
13. Palestinians are being victimized by their own Arab brethren
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 06:30 PM
Aug 2014

The Arab states keep them locked up in camps, refusing to give them the same right as other refugees.

Jordan and Egypt even took away their country completely, if it wasn't for Israel defeating the Arab armies the notion of a Palestinian state would be long gone.



4now

(1,596 posts)
15. You can try a distraction technique - but Israel murdered over 400 innocent children.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 06:46 PM
Aug 2014

But it still doesn't change the fact that Israel murdered over 400 innocent children.

Death toll in Gaza - 217 were armed militants - 1396 were Palestinian civilians
Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
This is from Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
277 Palestinians had an unknown role.

The IDF does a very good job of killing civilians.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
17. Your post...
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 08:17 PM
Aug 2014

Does little to invalidate the point made. The victims you named are not actually the ones being blamed either. Hamas was the group who initiated the sustained rocket and mortar attacks following the Gaza withdrawal as well as being the group who constructed tunnels into Israel.

Your post implies that these acts had nothing at all to do with the siege or the following military actions, which is absurd.

Are you really saying that the current bombing of Gaza is not a response to Hamas' own attacks? That this action would have inevitably proceeded even if Hamas had refrained from launching thousands of rockets and digging tunnels into Israel?

4now

(1,596 posts)
31. Just as there was nothing Iraq could do to stop George Bush from invading their country
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:59 AM
Aug 2014

and killing anybody that he wanted.
Netanyahu is Israel"s George Bush.
They are not really fooling anybody anymore.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
35. Ahh.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:27 AM
Aug 2014

But unlike Iraq Gaza wasn't doing nothing. In fact it was the only place carrying out continuous attacks. It's also the only place that's being targeted by Israel. You think these two things are a coincidence?

Here. I'll ask this... WHY do you think that Israel would have launched this attack even in the face of gazan nonaggression?

4now

(1,596 posts)
37. They want to continue stealing Palestinian land, water, gas reserves
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:41 AM
Aug 2014

That is pretty obvious.
Israel's tired old lies are not working anymore.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
40. Ohhhh. I see.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:58 AM
Aug 2014

We want all that palestinian real estate for themselves, just without the Palestinians who already live there. So they clearly can't be allowed to stay there. And we obviously can't just roll over Palestine militarily, to kill or force em all out either. The stupid, moralists over in the rest of the world would blow a gasket. No, I guess I can't just go kill them all any more. At least not without a really boss excuse, that is!!!

We just have to pretend to offer peace plans, while behind the scenes we'll ramp up settlement building and price tag attacks. There'll be no chance of them misunderstanding our true intentions.

Then we just have to set up a small instigation... Kidnapping, rockets, bombing maybe; doesn't matter. It'll be the excuse we need to finally exterminate those pesky Palestinians for good. Then we'll own their precious Gaza, West Bank and gas field.

--------

Something like this?

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
42. Yup ....
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:34 AM
Aug 2014

Ref: "" We just have to pretend to offer peace plans, while behind the scenes we'll ramp up settlement building and price tag attacks. ""

9 Months of Talks, 9 Months of Settlement Development

During the 9 months of Secretary Kerry’s efforts in the region, the Netanyahu Government promoted plans and tenders for at least 13,851 housing units in the settlements and East Jerusalem -
an average of 50 units per day and 1,540 units per month.


Source: http://peacenow.org.il/eng/9Months

Info on " price tag attacks " .....

http://972mag.com/price-tag-attacks-its-not-about-the-graffiti/92064/



Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
41. Oh. I'm still curious.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:03 AM
Aug 2014

Why do you think Israel would do that?

And not "WHYYY do you think Israel wants to do that?

But WHAAT makes you think that Israel would do that?

4now

(1,596 posts)
43. Google is your friend
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:54 AM
Aug 2014

I am sure that if you were really curious and wanted to know the answers you could find out without my help.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
45. Which Israel Shaktimaan ?
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:02 AM
Aug 2014

The one inside the green line or the one outside the green line ?
The one inside the wall or the one outside the wall ?

The followers of the dream of a Greater Israel will do anything to keep what we call the Wild West Bank .....and what they call Judea And Samaria, theirs .....anything ...including the assassination of Rabin .

Did you miss this one ??? :.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113478262



MFM008

(19,808 posts)
29. Israel has never withdrawn
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:42 PM
Aug 2014

they keep an iron foot on the neck of those people like a medieval siege.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
32. Really?
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:11 AM
Aug 2014

In 2005, following the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, in what way was Israel "keeping an iron foot on their necks?"

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
36. Gaza controlled its own borders, airspace, territorial waters, overland routes, etc?
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:29 AM
Aug 2014

No, of course not. Shaktimaan, the occupation of Gaza never ended. All that ended was the settlement project in Gaza.

And of course with no Jews to throw money at in Gaza, Israel simply rolled up and abandoned its obligations to the territory it occupied.

Now it's just a turkey shoot for every time likud needs to appease its right-wing coalition buddies.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
46. No idea.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:06 AM
Aug 2014

Gaza controlled its own borders of course. The air went to Israel. The sea was a tie. And "overland routes" doesn't sound like a real thing, so it's probably still up for grabs.

More importantly though, occupation only extends to areas under the direct authority of the occupying power. And in Gaza, theres no question that Hamas exerted uncontested control over the entirety of the strip. Politically, economically and militarily. No Israeli presence existed at all.

And of course with no Jews to throw money at in Gaza, Israel simply rolled up and abandoned its obligations to the territory it occupied.


So it stopped shipping supplies like food, oil, electricity, fresh water, building supplies, and so on?

Is that when they closed the border to migrant workers too? Preventing palestinian day laborers from entering Israel for jobs?

What obligations were you thinking of, specifically?

What sort of obligations do you believe a non-occupying nation is responsible for anyway?

Should Israel have kept paying gaza's auto insurance for the next few years? If Gaza goes to an expensive private school, should Israel take the loans out in Israel's name to protect gaza's credit, or is that just, like, really too much?

What if he's just a pain in the ass, lousy kid, and Israel just wants him gone? Is Israel obligated to continuing to support Gaza regardless of his actions?
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
60. We've discussed the obligations of an occupying power before
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:30 PM
Aug 2014

I suggest you go re-read some of those discussions.

As I said - and as you are affirming - Israel's "pullout" was simply a scheme by which to maintain control, while abrogating its own responsibilities.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
79. I recall those discussions.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 09:24 PM
Aug 2014

Your argument unfortunately hinges on the idea that Israel's closing of its own borders equates to effective control over all of Gaza. This requires believing that Israel has more effective authority within the strip than either the PA or Hamas, which makes little sense to any observer.

4now

(1,596 posts)
44. Death toll in Gaza - 217 were armed militants - 1396 were Palestinian civilians
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:00 AM
Aug 2014

Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
This is from Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
277 Palestinians had an unknown role.

The IDF does a very good job of killing civilians.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
48. Ooohhh
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 05:00 AM
Aug 2014

I think you might have misunderstood my post. You accused Israel of holding Gaza down by boot on neck, even after Israel's withdrawal in 2005.

In the years following the withdrawal how was Gaza being oppressed?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
52. You know the answer to this
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:15 AM
Aug 2014

The seige, the blockade, slow motion genocide, starvation, shooting fishermen, open air prison, etc.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
63. Being food insecure can lead to starvation
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:48 PM
Aug 2014

Perhaps malnourishment would have been a better word choice, although spellcheck says it's not a word.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
65. Food insecure gives an accurate description, I feel. At least before the war began, right now access
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:52 PM
Aug 2014

to clean water is a serious problem.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
74. I do know the answer.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:29 PM
Aug 2014

Everything you listed occurred years later, (aside from genocide and starvation, which never occurred), in response to thousands of rockets. I'm specifically talking about post-2005 withdrawal. Before the siege started in 2007.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
75. Between 2005 and 2007
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:32 PM
Aug 2014

However, Israeli control in Gaza two years after disengagement is total; indeed, the very text of the disengagement plan explicitly provides for much of the current strangulation, ensuring that “Israel will guard and monitor the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip, will continue to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space, and will continue to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip.” [6] In this way, Israel has fired upon Palestinian fishermen, has blocked the reconstruction of Yasser Arafat International Airport, and continues to exercise authority over all border regimes (upon which a blanket closure has been in effect since June 2007). Beyond this level of control, there is an abundance of academic and legal evidence indicating the continuation of Israel’s “effective control” in Gaza and thus, a continuation of the occupation under international law.

Yet the greatest evidence of Israeli power in Gaza lies in its power to wreak economic devastation as a matter of policy. Despite the disengagement plan’s pretensions to improve the Palestinian economy, its intentions to the opposite are all too clear. Two years after disengagement, the already abysmal economic conditions in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated in virtually all aspects — in large part because of the economic boycott imposed by the Quartet and spearheaded by the US after Hamas seized control of the strip last June. Since that time, any semblance of a manageable economy attempting to break through unfavorable conditions has been killed by the total closure of Gaza’s borders imposed by the Israeli authorities.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-strip-disengagement-two-years/7228

Hope that helps!

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
78. According to your link...
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 09:04 PM
Aug 2014

The main factor substantiating the claim that Israel maintains effective control over Gaza is economic, via the border closures and boycott enacted by the EU preventing access to foreign markets.

I think you'll agree that Israel has every right to close any crossing it shares with Gaza without then assuming responsibility for Gaza as a whole, regardless of the economic impact it might have. Israel has no responsibility for effects of boycotts enacted by the EU or border closures by Egypt. Nor does it have control over the passage of goods or people through Egypt or sea routes, this preceding the naval siege.

This article effectively blames gaza's stagnant economy on Israeli actions alone; actions which undeniably played a dominant role, but still fall under the category of reasonable sovereign actions that fall far short of demonstrating "effective control" over Gaza itself. The ability to ruin gaza's economy primarily by refusing to play an active role helping them, by providing employment, export opportunities, etc., can't be construed as an "occupation" merely because the effects are so deleterious. Control means control. Not affect.

Additionally, this articles main beefs begin with the closures and boycotts enacted in 2007. The years beforehand? 2005-2007?

Is the closing of shared border crossings and control of airspace enough to meet the characteristics of an occupation?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
34. Why not just say they killed themselves, Mosby? cut out the middle man altogether
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:24 AM
Aug 2014

Then after that, you can say the cause of death was a mystery...

And then, maybe they didn't even die at all! More Pallywood!



No, Mosby, those innocent children died because Israel dropped bombs on them.

Mosby

(16,311 posts)
38. israel dropped bombs on them because hamas shot rockets at israel.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:45 AM
Aug 2014

Last edited Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Play whatever games you want, the facts here are pretty simple and everyone knows it.

Eta: to clarify, Israel targets Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza, I was not implying in any way that the IDF consider civilians legitimate targets.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
39. And you just admitted it. because Israel dropped bombs on them
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:03 AM
Aug 2014

hamas isn't in charge of Israel's military Mosby. Hamas are not puppet masters. There are no Hamas Manchurian candidates pulling poor israel along by the strings and forcing it to do these horrible things.

Every choice israel and Israelis make, is a choice they made out of a desire to make that particular choice.

4now

(1,596 posts)
47. You said it - "Israel dropped bombs on them" and killed over 400 innocent children
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:08 AM
Aug 2014

and now you try to blame others.
If it wasn't so sick it would be funny.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
57. Caused by IDF, Likud, and netanyahu and his supporters.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:28 AM
Aug 2014

After using human shields for so long, Israel is trying to deflect from their own disgusting practises.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
58. Sounds like an emotional soundbite but the truth is
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:33 AM
Aug 2014

Hamas started it with continuous rockets , had a chance to stop with a ceasefire offered by Egypt in the 1st week.

There was no Gaza blockade until the rocket starts .

Those are the facts.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
59. There were no rockets until the occupation.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:37 AM
Aug 2014

See how that works? Oppress people, they will resist you. By any means necessary. Our founding fathers were considered terrorists.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
64. Rockets started as occupation of Gaza ended
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:50 PM
Aug 2014

Only after the very last Jew left Gaza did the rockets start.

There was no blockade until then .

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
66. I consider Gaza occupied.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:00 PM
Aug 2014

They are blockaded in and under the control of Israel. Until they have self determination, without israel controlling it's borders; air space and food supply, Gaza is occupied. As long as Israel retains the right to go in to Gaza at will and terrorize it's people, Gaza is occupied.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
67. I'm sure everyone will take under advisement
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:15 PM
Aug 2014

What you consider .

The very last Jew left Gaza in 2005 and there was no blockade . As well there was major greenhouses in place before they were destroyed in order to make pipe bombs and rockets from their scrap.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
71. I thought we were talking about current events?
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:14 PM
Aug 2014

Israel has never completely left Gaza alone. Isreal acts like it was doing Gaza a favor by dismantling those illigitimate settlements. Israel always reserves it's self the right to harass Palestinians. Israel should have never been there.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
83. What's your point?
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:35 PM
Aug 2014

It seems like it doesn't really matter what Israel does, as there'll always be some justification for groups like Hamas to attack it. Even when Israel withdrew entirely, the results were increased terrorism. Gaza had control over their borders, free elections, and autonomy over the entire strip when the renewed rocket fire began.

4now

(1,596 posts)
9. Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for 'Gaza massacre,'
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 06:07 PM
Aug 2014

"…we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel’s abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel’s wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."

The letter also blames the United States of aiding Israel in its Gaza operation, and the West in general of protecting Israel from condemnation.

"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads.

The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again” must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072

4now

(1,596 posts)
10. Israelis on Facebook wish death for Holocaust survivors against 'Protective Edge'
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 06:13 PM
Aug 2014

A few days ago some 300 Holocaust survivors placed an ad in the New York Times condemning the massacre in Gaza. My colleague from Local Call, John Brown, has selected a few of the responses on Facebook that Israelis posted in response to the ad.

I’ve translated a few from John’s selection:

David Cohen: Those aren’t Holocaust survivors those are probably collaborators with the Nazis.

Shmulik Halphon: He’s invited to go back to Auschwitz.

Itzik Levy: These are survivors who were Kapos. Leftist traitors. That’s why they live abroad and not in the Jewish State.

Vitali Guttman: Enough, they should die already. They survived the Holocaust only to do another Holocaust to Israel in global public opinion?

Meir Dahan: No wonder Hitler murdered 6 million Jews because of people like you you’re not even Jews you’re disgusting people a disgrace to humanity and so are your offspring you are trash.

Asher Solomon: It’s a shame Hitler didn’t finish the job.

Katy Morali: Holocaust survivors who think like this are invited to go die in the gas chambers.

http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/israelis-on-facebook-wish-death-for-holocaust-survivors-against-protective-edge/

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
51. First sentence of first paragraph is a lie
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:13 AM
Aug 2014

"A few days ago some 300 Holocaust survivors placed an ad ..."

That is not true, but sloppy reporting is typical of 972mag.

Also taking random idiots Facebook posts and "reporting" on them as if they mean something.

It'd be like writing on article about freeper comments.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
53. I guess BBC's lying too?
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:59 AM
Aug 2014

you do realize ad is short for advertisement? or is it "their descendents" you're claiming makes it a lie? Without the survivors these descendents would not exist making them also survivors


More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza.

The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times.

It was in response to an advertisement by Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel which compared the Palestinian militant movement Hamas to the Nazis.

More than 2,000 people have been killed in Gaza in the ongoing conflict.

Most of them were civilians. On the Israeli side, 68 people - mainly soldiers - have been killed.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28916761
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
61. Nope
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:47 PM
Aug 2014

Because the BBC link says "300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants" which, although possibly misleading, does not directly lie and say that it was 300 Holocaust survivors who took out the ad as the 972mag article does.

The vast majority of the signatories were not Holocaust survivors (and not identified as such in the ad) but rather people who are related to them (children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and other relatives).

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
62. yes I know and I already addressed that and unless you did not read past the title line
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 12:47 PM
Aug 2014

you knew that too so why mention it?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
50. Answer to question in first paragraph: No
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:12 AM
Aug 2014

Though I'm sure that won't stop more articles from being written on the subject.

Response to Mosby (Original post)

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Israel/Palestine»An Insider’s Guide to the...