How the Donors Saved Hamas

[Mosby]

Rebuilding or repairing infrastructure in the Gaza Strip is the best thing that could have happened to Hamas. Hamas knows that every dollar invested in the Gaza Strip will serve the interests of the Islamist movement. The promised funds absolve Hamas of all responsibility for the catastrophe it brought upon the Palestinians during the confrontation with Israel.

Hamas will now use its own resources to smuggle in additional weapons and prepare for the next war with Israel. Hamas can now go back to digging new tunnels and obtaining new weapons instead of assisting the Palestinians whose homes were destroyed as a result of its actions.

The biggest mistake the donor states made was failing to demand the disarmament of Hamas as a precondition for funneling aid to the Gaza Strip. Hopes that the catastrophic results of the confrontation would increase pressure on Hamas, or perhaps trigger a revolt against it, have faded.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4776/hamas-donors

[DetlefK]

1. Exactly what catastrophe has Hamas brought on Gaza?

Let's see: Three of their guys kidnapped somebody.

And for that Israel leveled the Gaza-strip and killed over 2000 people.

And Hamas' mistake was...

[shira]

2. Hamas was shooting rockets again before the kidnappings....

They're an Islamic Jihadi organization dedicated to oppressing women and other minorities, and are a complete disaster regarding each and every progressive value in the book.

They will re-arm again, attack Israelis again, continue to oppress their own people, and "good people" throughout the world will once again foot the bill and keep funding Hamas' intransigence.

There's nothing good that can possibly result from funding these Jihadi fascists.

[DetlefK]

3. But what exactly was Hamas doing wrong during that war?

Of course Hamas was shooting rockets. Israel is confiscating and stealing palestinian land day by day, burning palestinian agriculture day by day, bulldozing palestinian villages day by day. WHAT IS HAMAS SUPPOSED TO DO?


(I'm not condoning Hamas' oppression of its own citizens or the fact that it wants to wipe out Israel. But Israel is not innocent either.)

[hack89]

7. If Hamas is waging a legitimate war

then they can't complain when they get their asses kicked. It is the risk of provoking a war with a stronger opponent.

[DetlefK]

8. I don't get what you said.

First, they did not provoke Israel any more with their bombardment than Israel provoked them with their constant sabotage of peace-negotiations and theft and destruction of palestinian property.

Second, Israel all but admitted that this war was a usual "mowing the grass"-operation of bombing the Palestinians to hell every few years.

Third, what do you mean with legitimate war? You mean a "real" war, with soldiers and tanks and planes and artillery and spies?
Are you saying that Hamas is to blame for Israel's deliberate and collateral killing of more than 2000 Palestinians because Hamas dared to be unhappy about the current situation?

[hack89]

9. You said Hamas did nothing wrong by waging war against Israel

by shooting rockets and using tunnels to attack. They made a choice, they have to live with the consequences. That is part of governing.

Hamas has every right to be unhappy. Look at it from their perspective - they can no longer send suicide bombers into Israel to kill civilians and the blockade prevents them from acquiring the long range weapons they desperately want. They have painted themselves into a corner and the only thing left is to provoke Israel into killing Palestinians for PR value. But as unhappy as they are, violence does not appear to be getting them what they want.

[DetlefK]

16. Poor Israel was TRICKED into killing 2000 people?

Wow, they must be really stupid, because this trick works every few years.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Mowing-the-grass-in-Gaza-368516

If only there were some kind of solution, you know, some kind of resolution or contract that says: "Palestinian citizens live here and israeli citizens live there."

[hack89]

17. No. Provoked

Do I really need to tell you the difference. Besides, it was what Hamas wanted so it is ok, isn't it?

I agree that there should be a peace deal. I think Israel should withdraw from the West Bank. But Hamas will keep fighting and you know it. Let's not forget they view all of Israel as occupied territory. RoR will most likely be the reason they keep fighting.

[DetlefK]

18. Maybe you should look into a history-book: Israel IS occupied territory.

What do you think where the palestinian refugees in Lebanon and Jordan come from? Why don't they live in Palestine? Oops, they can't, because Israel and the British kicked them out when Israel was founded.

I am in favor of a Two-State-solution and I don't believe that Hamas will keep fighting once there's a palestinian state: Hamas represents only a tiny fraction of the Palestinians and they are only in charge of the Gaza-strip because they use violence to cling to power. Once the Palestinians have the opportunity for a life without conflict, they will take it.

[hack89]

22. Do you think the Palestinians will forgo full RoR? nt

[DetlefK]

24. I guess, most will.

They have a choice: Build a nation and start a (relatively) comfortable life or invest into weapons, bomb to hell and get bombed to hell.

[hack89]

26. Will the guys shooting the rockets and sending suicide bomber accept it?

that is the problem - it doesn't mean anything if only a small percentage oppose it if that small group is extremely violent. The Palestinians have never shown a willingness to corral their crazies - most likely because the likely result would be a violent civil war.

[oberliner]

29. You believe all of Israel is occupied territory?

Last edited Thu Oct 16, 2014, 01:39 PM - Edit history (1)

That is certainly what you appear to be saying - apologies if I misunderstood.

One question for you: How do you explain the existence of nearly 2 million Palestinians who actually do live in Israel?

Why weren't they kicked out by Israel and the British and set to Lebanon or Jordan?

[DetlefK]

32. Why does Israel still use military occupation for the territories where Palestinians live?

Honestly, I don't know enough about Israel for an informed opinion on your point.

[DanTex]

5. Not in significant numbers.

What kicked off the escalation was Israel using the kidnappings as an excuse to go around arresting people, even when they knew the teens were already dead, and they knew it wasn't a Hamas operation.

[King_David]

10. It wasn't a Hamas operation ?

Only here on DU.

Hamas admitted it.

[DanTex]

11. No, it was a lone cell. And Israel knew that and went around arresting people anyway.

[King_David]

12. Hamas is like Al Quada ? Lone cells and all?

Interesting .

Was it the Damascus Yellow cell group or the Bethlehem independent Hamas knitting pink group?

[DanTex]

13. Did you think it was like General Electric, with an org chart and all, where everyone has a boss

and nobody does anything without approval from legal and accounting?

[King_David]

14. They are one of the more organized terror orgs

Hamas like ISIS rules over a territory

[oberliner]

23. Hamas Admits To Kidnapping And Killing Israeli Teens

A senior Hamas leader has said the group carried out the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June — the first time anyone from the Islamic militant group has said it was behind an attack that helped spark the current war in the Gaza Strip.

Saleh Arouri told a conference in Turkey on Wednesday that Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, carried out what he described as a "heroic operation" with the broader goal of sparking a new Palestinian uprising.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318367/hamas-finally-admits-to-kidnapping-and-killing-israeli-teens

[DanTex]

25. Like I said, it was a lone cell. It wasn't a "Hamas operation" and Israel knew it.

That headline (and many others like it) are inaccurate. "Hamas" didn't admit that "they" did it. One member of Hamas admitted (not really an admission, more of a boast, really) that the people who did it were members of Hamas. Very different.

As I explained to KD, Hamas isn't like a multinational corporation with an org chart and where everything everyone does is cleared by legal and accounting. Members of Hamas (or people affiliated with Hamas) did the kidnapping, but this doesn't make it a "Hamas operation" planned and carried out according to Hamas leadership, and Israel knew this (along with the fact that the teenagers were already dead) when it went around arresting people who it knew had nothing to do with the kidnapping.

Claim by Saleh al-Arouri, a founder of Hamas's military wing, is doubted by experts and not supported by other Hamas sources.

...

Hugh Lovatt, Israel and Palestine coordinator at the European Council on Foreign Relations, said that while al-Arouri was a significant Hamas figure – serving as the group's most prominent representative in Turkey – the former militant could have an ulterior motive for making his claim.

"Given the timing I would be very suspicious about his claim. I still don't believe Hamas as an organisation and its upper echelons sanctioned the kidnappings – something that Israeli intelligence also believes," he said.

Lovatt said that al-Arouri may be trying to claim credit for the actions of others in an attempt to demonstrate his own continued sway in the West Bank and Hamas's ability to hit Israel after failing to secure significant concessions after six weeks of violence in Gaza.

"A second, more remote possibility, is that al-Arouri is telling the truth and that he has operated on his own initiative – a development with very worrying repercussions as it would imply a serious power struggle and splintering within Hamas," he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/hamas-kidnapping-three-israeli-teenagers-saleh-al-arouri-qassam-brigades

[oberliner]

27. He is not "one member of Hamas" - he is the founder of the Hamas military wing

He is a high-ranking Hamas military leader and has been so since the 1990s. He is a member of the Hamas leadership and he has been known to fund and organize terror cells whose purpose is the attempted kidnapping and/or killing of Israelis.

When the Israelis were kidnapped, the other members of the Hamas leadership praised the actions. Meshal (the leader of the political wing of Hamas) himself said "We applaud and take our hats off to them" in reference to the kidnappers.

He said that though the political and military wings of Hamas are separate:

"The military wing's actions do not require instructions from Hamas' political leadership because they know Hamas' policy well and are committed to the movement's political approach."

Thus, this was an action carried out by the military wing of Hamas (a prominent leader explicitly saying so) with the blessing of the political wing of Hamas (Meshal actually uses that word "blessing" in another statement) whose leadership made it clear that both wings are on the same page in terms of the policy of Hamas.

[DanTex]

28. He is one high-ranking member of Hamas. He is not "Hamas".

Like the article I quoted said, it's possible that he was actually behind the kidnappings (though it's unlikely, and that's not what he said in his statement). But there's no indication that Hamas leadership as a whole was behind it, and they've in fact denied it. Does anyone outside of media headlines actually believe that his statement is proof that Hamas leadership was behind the kidnappings? Not that I've seen.

Sure, Hamas leaders praised the action. They're a terrorist group and they hate Israel. That doesn't mean they did it. In the same way that FOX News praised Cliven Bundy.

None of what you said justifies going around arresting hundreds of people that Israel knew had nothing to do with the kidnappings. It's interesting the double standard with respect to Israeli intelligence. When it comes to blowing up shelters full of civilians, the excuse is that intelligence told them that there were militants or weapons there. But when intelligence tells them that Hamas was not behind the kidnappings, they ignore the intelligence and go around arresting people anyway.

[oberliner]

30. Hamas policy explicitly calls for kidnapping Israelis

“We strive for an abduction operation that would make a second Shalit possible,” said Hamas spokesman Mushir al-Masri .

A massive network of tunnels from Gaza into Israel were discovered in the latest fighting. They could not have been built without Hamas's authorization. The only purpose of said tunnels would be to attack Israelis inside Israel - kidnap or kill.

A leader of the Hamas military wing, acting to implement the policy endorsed by the political wing, orchestrated the particular kidnapping/killing of these teenagers. It was an operation conducted by the Hamas military wing. This is the group that historically has engaged in similar activity, from taking and holding Gilad Shalit to blowing up busses and dance clubs.

I am not sure why you are not willing to acknowledge that doing so is in keeping with Hamas policy, that the political wing of Hamas expressed praise and support for kidnapping (as they have always expressed praise for similar actions in the recent past), and that a network of tunnels was built with the same goal in mind.

It seems strange than you are trying to somehow distance Hamas from this in light of their own proclamations on the subject.

[DanTex]

31. Sure, but none of that means that Hamas leadership coordinated this one.

And the point, again, is that Israel knew this. They also knew the teens had been killed, but lied about it in order to justify their incursion and arrests in the West Bank. It was purely a ploy to arrest people that they wanted to arrest. And it was also collective punishment against the Palestinian people.

A leader of the Hamas military wing, acting to implement the policy endorsed by the political wing, orchestrated the particular kidnapping/killing of these teenagers. It was an operation conducted by the Hamas military wing. This is the group that historically has engaged in similar activity, from taking and holding Gilad Shalit to blowing up busses and dance clubs.

If you're talking about Saleh al-Arouri, that's not what he said, nobody with expertise in the region that I know of believes it's likely that he actually did it, and if reports such as the Guardian are to be believed, Israeli intelligence doesn't believe this either. But more to the point, even if al-Arouri did orchestrate this without the knowledge or approval of Hamas leadership, that still wouldn't justify mass arrests of people that weren't involved.

Do you think that Israel's actions in the wake of the kidnappings were justified?

[oberliner]

45. Meshal: "This was indeed an operation executed by a Hamas group"

"So, this was indeed an operation executed by a Hamas group. We now have specific information. (The) question now is: Was this operation legitimate or not? This was a legitimate operation. Why? I told you. It is the right of the lawful owners of the land in the West Bank, whether they are from Hamas, or from some other group, to engage in resistance against the occupiers, whether they are the Israeli military or settlers. It’s as simple as that.”

[DanTex]

46. He's giving his blessing after the fact.

We know it was Hamas people, but it wasn't ordered or planned by the leadership. The people Israel went around arresting had nothing to do with it, and Israel knew that. I'll ask you again.

Do you think that Israel's actions in the wake of the kidnappings were justified?

[Dick Dastardly]

43. Hamas fireing over 4500 rockets/mortars on Israel was the mistake that Hamas made which brought on

the catastrophe in Gaza.
Israel's action in Gaza was not due to the kidnappings but was a response to the
escalating rockets/mortars fired from Gaza on Israeli civilians by Hamas.
Unless you are saying that Israel has no right to defend itself from such attacks as all other countries do, then the responsibility falls squarely on Hamas for the death and destruction.

Btw
Claiming Gaza was leveled is false hyperbole.

[DetlefK]

44. You forgot to ask why.

Why does this perpetual cycle of violence keep going?

What does Israel do that makes Hamas shoot them?

What does Hamas do that makes Israel shoot them?

[shira]

47. Why? To kill or expel all the Jews, that's why.

Going way back to Hitler's grand mufti, Haj Amin al-Husseini back in the 20's and 30's.

Same shit, different day.

[DanTex]

4. I assume the point of this OP is to demonstrate how nutty RW think-tankers are. nt

[shira]

48. That donor aid should've been tied to Hamas disarming....

Would you have had a problem with that?

[Jefferson23]

52. That's a new low for the collective punishment point of view. n/t

[shira]

53. Supporting a genocidal, warmongering, fascist, racist terror org...

...like Hamas is the real low. Giving them billions with no strings attached should be criminal.

Everyone knows that.

I doubt anyone decent would be as quick to support a similarly vile political organization dedicated to the destruction of any other race or ethnic group of people.

[Jefferson23]

54. Strawman Special Delivery, by shira.

You crack me up, and your collective punishment ideas are noted.

[azurnoir]

55. The money is going to UNRWA however

Republicans threaten showdown over UN funding in Gaza

The UN Refugee and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) has long been in Republicans’ cross-hairs, in part because it recognizes 5 million descendants of the Palestinians expelled from their lands in 1948 as refugees. During this summer’s fighting in Gaza, the agency caused a bipartisan uproar when it turned over to the local authorities Hamas rockets that it had discovered stored at three of its schools.

In a letter to Kerry, Sens. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Mark Kirk, R-Ill., said they were “dumbfounded” by the State Department pledge announced Oct. 12 as part of the Cairo donor conference to rebuild Gaza. The United States is UNRWA’s largest bilateral donor.

“This blind support sends the wrong message to an institution that has already become far too dependent on the largesse of the American taxpayer and repeatedly failed to ensure that its facilities and resources are not used by terrorists who wish to sow chaos and instability rather than aid the Palestinian people,” they wrote.

“We will not support the provision of future U.S. assistance to entities or projects in Gaza,” they added, “unless the State Department assures Congress that UNRWA or the relevant recipient entity has imposed independently audited accountability measures to verifiably prevent any U.S. assistance from aiding, directly or indirectly, extremists’ efforts to rearm or lay the groundwork for future attacks against Israel.”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/10/republican-showdown-unrwa-funding-kerry-rubio-kirk.html#ixzz3GzzMnI3u

[Jefferson23]

56. Thank you. n/t

[DanTex]

58. Punish Gaza's children for what Hamas does. You and John Bolton think alike.

You know, the US is also sending aid over (unless Republicans who think like you can block it). So much for your theory that you stand with elected Democrats. You stand with the far-right, as usual. No wonder you can't find any non-right-wing sources to echo your beliefs.

[shira]

59. What % of aid goes to Gaza children? Why do u take issue....

....with assurances that aid money would be used for children and infrastructure rather than terror purposes?

[hack89]

6. Gaza will be rebuilt several more times before they get the message. nt

[Scootaloo]

15. Khaled Abu Toameh? Writing for Gatestone? Posted by Mosby?

"What are three ways to tell something's not worth a full read?"

[King_David]

19. Khaled Abu Toameh?

Is a Palestinian Arab writer.

Are you saying it's the same as reading a Mondoweiss or Blumenthal article?

[azurnoir]

20. Yes he is a writer StandWithUs sponsored a series of his lectures too, however he's Israeli

or an Israeli Arab

Abu Toameh has spoken at the House of Commons of the United Kingdom by invitation. He was a keynote speaker at the 2009 annual conference of the Canadian Association of Journalists in Vancouver. He has spoken on the situation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and prospects for peace in the Middle East at university campuses throughout the U.S. and Canada. A series of his talks have been sponsored by StandWithUs, and he spoke at their annual conference in Los Angeles in 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Abu_Toameh

[King_David]

21. He's a Palestinian Israeli

So what ?

[azurnoir]

36. is a Palestinian Israeli the very same as a Palestinian Arab?

because I was replying to your comment here it was for clarification

Star Member King_David (9,423 posts)
19. Khaled Abu Toameh?

Is a Palestinian Arab writer.

Are you saying it's the same as reading a Mondoweiss or Blumenthal article?
הַסְבָּרָה‎ hasbará, "explaining

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113484216#post19

[King_David]

38. Yea

[oberliner]

35. Is an Israeli Arab not the same as a Palestinian citizen of Israel?

What do you believe to be the distinction between the two, if any?

[azurnoir]

37. I hope this helps you understand my comment

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113484216#post36

[Scootaloo]

33. Not at all.

I'm saying it's like reading a Tomas Sowell article about black people written for TownHall

[LeftishBrit]

40. Yes, like the very worst of Mondoweiss, or like Richard Falk

Not QUITE Gilad Atzmon territory, but close.

[King_David]

41. That's what I was trying to say

For those that respect those writers.

[shira]

49. What makes Toameh a bad guy? Because he doesn't support Hamas? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

57. WHAT?

Really I can't believe you could ask ME that question!?

You know I don't support any right-wingers including Hamas.

That's like saying that the only reason for not liking Falk is that he doesn't support Likud!

No, I don't like him because he wants his entire region punished for the actions of Hamas, basically. The whole idea of wanting Gaza (or any territory or country) to be allowed to suffer in order to force it into revolution against its leaders is wrong, both morally and pragmatically.

And because he writes for evil organizations like the Gatestone Institute and FrontpageMag.

In fact, my strongest objection to the OP was not so much because it came from Tomaeh, as because it came from the Gatestone Institute.


As I said a couple of years ago about the Gatestone Institute:

'This is an organization that has Soeren Kern as one of its chief editors, and whose recent events have included speakers such as Mark Steyn (more than once), Senator Tom Coburn, Dick Morris, Antonin Scalia, Douglas Murray, John Bolton (more than once), Geert Wilders, Alan Craig (a London Councillor for a small Christian-Right party), Henry Kissinger, the late Andrew Breitbart; Dan Pipes, and other evil individuals. Some of the events and publications are specifically Islamophobic; some are simply far right and anti-Democrat.'

[shira]

60. Alan Dershowitz has articles on Gatestone too...

His liberal credentials beat anyone's on this board.

No, I don't like him because he wants his entire region punished for the actions of Hamas, basically. The whole idea of wanting Gaza (or any territory or country) to be allowed to suffer in order to force it into revolution against its leaders is wrong, both morally and pragmatically.

He's calling for accountability.

It's evil aiding Hamas with billions of dollars & no strings attached.

Why not let Qatar, Turkey, and Iran aid Hamas in order to counter what you see as collective punishment?

[shaayecanaan]

34. how Israel saved hamas, more like (nt)

[LeftishBrit]

39. So we should not help people or repair infrastructure because they have bad governments?

First, people have been saying - rightly - that Hamas spends its money on warfare (terrorism) rather than on helping its people. Now the argument is that if we help the people, Hamas will be able to spend more on warfare. But if they are so bad, theywould spend the money on warfare anyway! So why punish the ordinary people, just because it MIGHT (probably not) harm Hamas.

And bringing Gaza down so as to 'trigger a revolt' against Hamas is not necessarily going to have the desired effect, even from the writer's point of view. It could result in someone worse grabbing power (yes there are worse people; e.g. Islamic Jihad) or just in complete chaos breeding long-term misery and instability for all.

And by the way, could you please not quote the Gatestone Institute - a bunch of vile right-wingers, like Alan Duncan on the other side of the I/P issue.

[shira]

50. No, b/c Hamas should be pressured to disarm before accepting aid....

Either that, or there should be mechanisms in place that all but guarantee that the money given for Gaza actually goes to reconstruction.

Simply giving Hamas billions of dollars without assurances isn't just irresponsible, it's evil.

[bemildred]

42. The IDF failed (once again) to destroy Hamas, why blame the donors?

If the IDF can't disarm Hamas, and it cannot, then how the heck are the donors supposed to accomplish it?

[shira]

51. Hamas will yield to Int'l pressure. There's no question....

...they see this latest aid as support for their ongoing war against the Jews.

[shira]

61. Donors will be needed to save ISIL as well....

ISIL will require international funding in order to repair and rebuild for the children of the Levant.

To not help would be collective punishment against the innocents.

Where am I wrong?

[Mosby]

62. did you hear Egypt closed rafah crossing

Indefinitely? According to sisi it's due to smuggling and terrorism.

And yet many people think it's Israel that is blocking goods coming into Gaza and demand that they "lift the siege" or face repercussions.

It's no wonder that most Israel supporters don't take the "international community" seriously re Israel.

Eta - just saw your OP about it so I guess you heard lol.

[shira]

63. Israel bashers don't care if they can't blame the Juice. n/t