OT: Should polls be allowed here?

[Lithos]

Or should they be judged case by case? Given the extremely limited options of before, most polls were flamebait out of the gate, no matter how well intentioned. Not sure they are better now.

L-

[Behind the Aegis]

1. No. Futhermore, we should decide if DU2 rules are still in effect or not.

If they are not, then it needs to be stated as such.

[oberliner]

13. Agreed

That has not been made clear.

[Lithos]

43. BTA

You are a group host, so I am sort of surprised with your statement. There is no way to enforce DU2 rules here, the tools at hand make it impossible. The Jury system and MIR have showed themselves to be wholly incompetent towards understanding notions of bigotry (anti-Semitism, anti-Islamism, etc.) even allowing some rather blatant posts and individuals to remain.

My role has essentially changed to 1) locking threads and 2) banning anyone from the forum.

L-

[Behind the Aegis]

49. The jury system is showing signs of major suckdom, I agree.

However, just as safe groups (LGBT being one, where I also host) have 'special' status, if a group has a set of rules, unlike DU overall, then the jury is supposed to take those into consideration. It doesn't mean they will always do the correct thing, however, if there are special rules then those rules can be cited. Also, even if a jury doesn't do the right thing, you and UGRR can message the said individual and request they read the rules and follow them or risk being blocked from the forum.

If we have a set of rules, you can lock duplicate threads, lock threads with questionable sources (which might get a pass elsewhere on DU), lock threads with photos (I am waiting for the "death porn" to start up), and block posters who constantly break the I/P rules. I understand your hands are tightly bound, but I also know there are some things we can do to keep this group from sucking. The real irony here is I/P is turning into the dungeon it was once believed to be on DU2. The rules on DU2 kept threads from starting off and turning into flamefests. Yes, there were always a few here and there, which you could clean up (then) and no longer can. I feel having "safe haven" rules for I/P can return I/P to a more productive group, instead of a punchbowl for people to shit in. That's all I was saying.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Yr right about the jury system, but not about the MIRT...

Unless the individual is very new with a very low post-count, our hands are tied, and we rely on juries doing the right thing and hiding a TOS alert so we can do something about it. And many times juries don't do the right thing at all. I've seen posts in this group that at DU2 would have been deleted, which now just stand there untouched. My experience from futilely alerting on bigoted posts at DU3 is that yr more likely to be rewarded with a round of 'get a life and stop being so sensitive. If you disagree with it, go and explain why! FREE SPEECH ROOLZ!' than seeing a post hidden and possibly sent to the MIRT so they can deal with it...

[Behind the Aegis]

53. +1 and another +1 for good measure.

I am so fucking sick of "'get a life and stop being so sensitive. If you disagree with it, go and explain why! FREE SPEECH ROOLZ!'" and it always seems to be in relation to some bigoted screed.

[azurnoir]

54. your right about that and I will agree juries have failed

however this is a system that is still developing and hopefully the bugz so to speak will be worked out

[ellisonz]

65. +1

[Crunchy Frog]

2. I think we should give it a try for awhile and see how it goes.

I also like the fact that the old DU rules mostly aren't being enforced, and that there is more of an atmosphere of freedom. I felt that the old DU was overly restrictive.

[oberliner]

14. Really bad idea

Also disagree with you about the new vs. old DU.

[azurnoir]

3. why not? albeit the results would be ah predictable

but really there is no reason why not at least that I can think of

[oberliner]

12. I'm sure you could come up with some reasons

Can you imagine the possible poll questions?

[Crunchy Frog]

17. If someone posts a really nasty poll question, it can be alerted on.

And if you think it violates TOS, then it will go to higher ups rather than just a jury.

I'm really not sure why the prospect of polls is so alarming, especially since the policy can be changed if it's not working out or is being abused.

[oberliner]

27. Alarming, no. A really bad idea, I think so.

I know we have different views on this, but I see nothing productive possibly resulting from such polls and can see disruption, distraction, flame-baiting, and other such nonsense moving the board further away from constructive dialogue and exchanging of information.

[ZombieHorde]

4. Why were the polls so problematic?

What was happening?

[Crunchy Frog]

18. I don't know. In fact, I'm not sure that they were ever allowed in the I/P forum

or if they were, it was so long ago that I don't think anyone here would even remember.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Help! I can't locate the voting button for this poll!

If there was a way to vote in this poll about polls, I'd vote yes. It's been my dream for many years to see a day when I would have the ability every Friday to start a poll for the zaniest quote of the week picked from contenders in the forum. No way could I see anything like that going wrong!

[oberliner]

11. You can't be serious?

What exactly would this accomplish?

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Don't go all party pooper on me. We need to embrace new technology!

Allowing polls in this group would only come second to if we all up and moved over to Second Life and hung out in our own Israel/Palestine virtual world. It'd be so very cool. I bags passing myself off as a bloke and being Netanyahu just so I can bask in the adulation of one or two DUers who'd follow me around worshipping the ground I walk on. I think like him I'm also pretty good at saying what Americans want to hear while going and doing the complete opposite....

Whether polls are allowed or not isn't something I'm going to die in a ditch over. In a group where Arutz Sheva's an approved source and the white noise is so much more lifeless and bland than it was in the past, I don't think much can be done to make it any worse than it already is...

[Ruby the Liberal]

30. LOL!

[oberliner]

6. Absolutely not

In fact, I think it's clear from what's been going on here lately that this forum needs to revert back to the rules that were in place in its prior incarnation with strict enforcement post haste.

[Crunchy Frog]

19. Why, what's been going on lately?

[oberliner]

24. Disintegration of the prior I/P rules in place on DU

It seemed at first that people generally kept to the old I/P rules when the new site first got started. That seems increasingly to no longer be true.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. I agree, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

I think that it allows for a more wide ranging discussion and less walking on eggshells. I haven't seen any decrease in the level of civility here. (It's never been very civil to begin with.)

[Dick Dastardly]

44. I agree with you that its not a bad thing and allows for a more open wide ranging discussion.

I also have not seen any decrease in the level of civillity.



Maybe we are all on double secret probation

[azurnoir]

33. here is the problem under the structure of DU3 just how would those rules be enforced?

would we have to explain 'da' rulz' to every jury, or even better do Lithos and UGGR want to go back to the ways, where they had sole authority, seems their lives are a bit easier now, so what to do?

[oberliner]

36. Honor System?

Gentleman's agreement? Or the non-gender stereotyped version therein.

[azurnoir]

39. That's kind of what happened here in the beginning of DU3 however DU3 is a whole new game

it is the inmates (to a large extent) running the asylum and more over it's still in it's infancy standards are being developed but things take time too and when you take into account the diverse opinions of DUers then it becomes an interesting soup indeed

[Violet_Crumble]

32. We're a group, not a forum. And that's where I think the problem lies...

Back at DU2 we used to be somebody in the scheme of things. We weren't some piddly little group sitting there amongst eleventy billion other piddly little groups. No. We were somebody back then. We were a forum, and we had our own special sets of rules as well as the super duper extra secret special mod forum specially to deal with problems in the forum. People were goddam scared to post in the forum lest they be banned by Lithos or hung, drawn and quartered by a bunch of armchair warriors. How low we've sunk since then. We didn't even get a snazzy new name like 9/11 and the gungeon did. Are we still top of the list when it comes to problem forums (now groups)? Hell, no! We're invisible. The gungeon and the Religion group are the place for any self-respecting rabble-rouser to be. We used to be the premier forum to avoid at all costs, but now it's like we don't exist....

There's nothing for it but to reoccupy DU2! Over there they knew what real rules were! We need structure! Let's blow this popsicle stand right now!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124

[Scurrilous]

7. Yes.

[oberliner]

9. Shocker

Will wonders never cease.

[Jefferson23]

8. I too wondered what was the problem with having a poll?

When I joined there were no polls and never knew why not. If someone
could let me know, I'd appreciate it.

Another question, you're speaking about polls as a thread in and
of itself, or to be used as an attachment to an OP?


Off topic, the forum is running very well through the jury system, not
perfect, but very good imo.

[oberliner]

10. Consistent flame bait

Polls that served no purpose other than to piss people off.

[Jefferson23]

15. Polls were allowed when you first joined?

The polls were a thread, and or added to an OP?

[oberliner]

21. Not that I recall

Just going off of the ones that cropped up in GD from time to time before they were alerted on.

[Crunchy Frog]

20. Were polls even allowed in I/P when you joined?

Because I can't recall a time when they were ever allowed, though I couldn't swear to the quality of my memories being very good going back that far.

[oberliner]

22. No - I was referencing polls upstairs

Occasionally there would be ones posted there about I/P related topics and things tended to get ugly quickly before they were alerted on.

Edit to Add: I also think some were allowed to stand during the fighting in Lebanon and one or two other times when I/P postings were permitted for a time in the other forums.

[Lithos]

40. Polls were originally allowed

They caused a lot of problems due to inflammatory language, push polling, and general flamebait. People were also a little insensitive to how they approached certain topics.

Or if you want a nicer way to say this, they were fairly predictable and offered no value.

L-

[azurnoir]

23. well with regards to this group

almost everything posted PO's one side or the other so that really isn't a good reason IMO and if the poll is really offensive then it's time to engage a jury or in extreme cases MIRT simple enough

eta not to mention that unlike DU2 these polls are completely transparent you can see who voted for what which could cut down on some nasty stuff too

[oberliner]

26. You can see who votes for what in polls?

That I did not know. How do you do that? Is that only for donating members or for anyone?

[azurnoir]

28. It's all right here EarlG ran a thread in annoucments

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10131386

[oberliner]

29. Thanks for that info

I still stand by my position though.

[bemildred]

16. No. nt

[bemildred]

46. There are two things I dislike about polls:

Last edited Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:32 PM - Edit history (1)

1.) They present a preconceived set of choices which are easily mistaken for the only relevant ones, and are thus a favorite of posters with a point of view and a desire to appear open-minded while "framing the debate" in a way convenient for themselves. This is why they are so loved by politicians.

2.) They are utterly meaningless as a measure of anything whatsoever.

That said, it's not a subject that excites me much, and Violet is quite right that it might perk things up here a bit. One can easily see elsewhere around this site how they can be used to "stimulate debate".

I haven't reached any conclusions about how DU3 differs from DU2, still watching it unfold or unravel as the case may be.

[oberliner]

47. That was a quick turnaround

Were you not comfortable being the only one on that team voting no?

[bemildred]

48. Does it worry you?

I was explaining my vote, not changing it. Other posters felt the need to share, I thought I should make the effort too. No good deed goes unpunished, as they say.

[oberliner]

58. It does

The power of the alliance is disturbing.

[Mosby]

34. I don't see any value in allowing polls here.

And since the subject was brought up I think the group has been doing fine without the special du2 rules.

[Scurrilous]

35. "..I think the group has been doing fine without the special du2 rules."

Agreed.

[oberliner]

37. Wondering when you'll be switching over from Mondoweiss to Electronic Intifada

And from there, the sky's the limit!

[Jefferson23]

38. You're against polls due to the discourse that you believe will result. Yet,

you address a poster with snark multiple times on the forum who clearly never responds to you.

[oberliner]

41. No clue what you are talking about

But thanks for adding that helpful insight.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Here's a clue...

Go back and read yr own replies to Scurrilous and any where you refer to 'anti-hasbara' (WTF is that anyway?) or Mondoweiss. It's not only silly, but that sort of behaviour makes a joke out of opposing polls due to some concern that the level of discourse will be lowered...

[oberliner]

45. Doesn't help

Anti-hasbara means the opposite of hasbara.

If hasbara is spreading positive PR about Israel, anti-hasbara would be spreading negative PR about Israel.

References to Mondoweiss have been made to anyone who posts from the site.

That is actually the sort of thing that lowers the discourse here - as much as posting from Arutz Sheva, which also ought to be banned, as I have said many times to many posters.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Didn't think it would....

You honestly don't see anything wrong with the way you've been carrying on lately? If yr honestly interested in raising the level of discourse in this group, how about leading by example?

[oberliner]

59. I appreciate that

I hope we both can continue to be exemplars of what we'd like to see in others here on the site.

Hopefully those who want to engage in serious discussion will be able to shape this board into a place where games and snark are no longer welcome.

Step one: no more nonsense from Mondoweiss or Arutz Sheva.

Let's stick to legit news sources from now on.

[Jefferson23]

50. You're welcome and the pleasure was all mine. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

61. Actually I'd prefer allowing Electronic Intifada (or Arutz Sheva) to Mondoweiss (or Fresno Zionist)

I think that sources directly from the conflict, even if right-wing or super-nationalistic or bigoted in various ways, give some information about the views on the ground, even if some of these views may be unpalatable. I don't see that right-wing or ultrapartisan American or Europaean sources, especially blogs, offer very much to the discussion.

[oberliner]

62. Electronic Intifada is not a source directly from the conflict

It is an American blog, just like Mondoweiss.

[LeftishBrit]

63. OK, I had thought that Abunimah was a Palestinian currently living in America; but on checking I see

Last edited Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

that he was born in America.

Nonetheless, they do have some actual Palestinian contributions, and I think tell something about certain Palestinian viewpoints.

Mondoweiss is actually not the worst of the anti-Zionist American blogs; there are some far worse ones, such as Rense. I wouldn't mind so much if Mondoweiss was occasionally quoted; it's the frequency with which it's quoted that bothers me.

[shaayecanaan]

55. i don't think it really matters...

Over at the Lebanese Forces forum, the main problem that you see are the occasional threats of actual physical violence, usually of the posse comitatus variety. Mainly posing, but still you don't see much of that around here. A bit of perspective helps.

[pelsar]

56. seriously?....physical threats?

its just a forum......at least that put things into perspective...

[oberliner]

57. What is the Lebanese Forces forum?

Was this meant tongue-in-cheek?

[shaayecanaan]

64. no

I hadn't actually been on there for a while. It turns out that the forum owner wound it up in March:-

http://sawte.com/vb/general-discussions-forum/10203-sawte-com-here-stay.html

Frankly, it was probably time. I can't say that sawte.com is any better, though.

[LeftishBrit]

60. I don't really mind one way or the other

I think that polls are not likely to increase problems on this forum, which have quite other causes, but are not likely to cure them either.

As someone who dropped by the forum 5 years ago, planning to post on one thread and then leave - and then stayed and stayed- I think the problems are different.

(1) It is intrinsically a contentious topic and there'd be no way of avoiding conflict altogether.

(2) There is, perhaps inevitably, sometimes a very partisan debating style. I don't mean simply that people are very pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel, but in my perception there is sometimes an attitude of 'scoring points for the team': i.e. responding to an argument not with 'You are wrong because of fact X', but with something akin to 'You didn't/ wouldn't complain when/if someone of your team did that!' or even with anticipation of future potential misdeeds by the other side: 'Now I'll be called antisemitic! or 'No one will bother to criticize these atrocities because they weren't committed by Israel!'

(3) There are not very clear limits as to what sources can be used. My own view is that right-wing or highly nationalistic Middle Eastern sources - Arutz Sheva, Electronic Intifada, PressTV - should be usable as information on the views on the ground, but not treated as objective news sources or as corroboration for a poster's opinion; and that right-wing Europaean or American sources should not be used at all.

(4) Not a reason for the conflict, but a limitation on the forum: there are very few forum members who are actually Israeli or Palestinian!

[ellisonz]

66. I think they'd be fine.

I'd like to see new guidelines for this group.

[pelsar]

67. i see zero reason for any kind of poll.....to what end?

is the idea of the poll to encourage some kind of "groupthink"...that if x amount of people believe "y" that means "Y" is factual? truthful?

polls are better served by politicians who use "groupthink" to get votes and those of the flat earth society that also use the concept of "consensus" to replace factual data...

(and for those who do believe in consensus as some kind of "truth"....i got news, the earth isn't flat)