Unnecessary killing in West Bank

[kayecy]

Unnecessary killing in West Bank
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/unnecessary-killing-in-west-bank-1.428439 6th May 2012


Why does the IDF have to infiltrate a peaceful Palestinian village in the dead of night to train among its houses? Those responsible must be called to account for the unnecessary killing in Ramun.
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Three brothers from the burglar-plagued West Bank village of Kafr Ramun wake up in the middle of the night and spot two suspicious figures near their home. They ask them to identify themselves, but the suspicious characters keep moving toward their house. The brothers try to chase off the intruders with sticks and kitchen knives, but the intruders open fire on the men with handguns they have kept hidden. Only the next day do the brothers discover that the two suspicious figures were undercover operatives of the Israel Defense Forces' Duvdevan unit, disguised as Arabs, ..
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Does anyone think they can justify such an outrage by the IDF?

Worst of all is that this incident happened in March and as yet the IDF have not contacted the surviving brothers. Had this been a Palestinian shooting an Israeli it would have hit the headlines and resulted in the arrest of the usual suspects.
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[Jefferson23]

1. Good question:

Why does the IDF have to infiltrate a peaceful Palestinian village in the dead of night to train among its houses?

These questions must be investigated quickly and those responsible be called to account for the unnecessary killing in Ramun.

[Scurrilous]

2. More:

Soldiers in civilian clothing shot at Palestinians who, thinking they were being robbed, sought to defend their property; one Palestinian killed

<snip>

"On 27 March 2012 in the middle of the night, security forces in civilian clothing as well as uniformed soldiers entered Kafr Ramun, northeast of Ramallah, and shot three brothers from the Shawakhah family: Akram, age 36, Anwar, age 38, and Rashad, age 28. All three were wounded, each shot multiple times, and were taken by the soldiers to Shaare Zedek Hospital in Jerusalem where they were admitted to Intensive Care. On 2 April 2012, Rashad Shawakhah died of his wounds in the hospital.

The three brothers and their families live on the northeastern outskirts of Kafr Ramun. The brothers explained that in the wake of recent thefts in the village, they take turns guarding at night. Based on the testimony given to B’Tselem, at about 1:30 am on 27 March 2012, Akram Shawakhah woke up to do his guard duty. Through his window, he saw two people in civilian clothing about fifty meters from the house. Akram called his brothers Anwar and Rashad to wake them up, and the three of them, suspecting it was robbers, went out to the street and called out to the strangers to stop. Akram Shawakhah was holding a club, and Rashad and Anwar were each holding a knife.

When the brothers had came within a few meters of the strangers and demanded that they identify themselves, one of the strangers pulled out a gun, and shot Anwar Shawakhah in the neck. According to the testimonies given to B’Tselem, the other man then pulled a gun. The brothers responded by trying to attack the two men, who then fired several shots and wounded both Akram and Rashad in the abdomen.

Insofar as is known to B’Tselem, at this stage uniformed Israeli soldiers arrived from the southeast. Rashad and Anwar Shawakhah were already lying on the ground, and Akram, who was still standing despite his injury, described what happened next:

“Just then I saw a bunch of soldiers coming from below - from the direction of Abu Yusef’s house, and they were shouting: ‘Stop, stop.’ I felt somewhat relieved because I thought that the army would deter the armed men and detain them, whoever they were. The soldiers approached and one of them told me to stop and pointed his rifle at me. Of course I did not move and I already had my hands up to show that I was not violent. Then I began to tell him: ‘The thieves shot us, I am wounded in the abdomen, I am wounded.’ I tried to lower my hands to lift up my shirt so that he could see the wounds, and then the soldier shot in my direction and hit me with the third bullet on the right side of my abdomen and then I fell to the ground.’

http://www.btselem.org/firearms/20120424_ramun_incident

[holdencaufield]

3. Was the murder...

... of three children in their beds in Itmar also an unnecessary killing?

[kayecy]

4. Of course the Itmar murders were unecessary ....

Of course the Itmar murders were unnecessary killing......But they were investigated and the culprits prosecuted.......Why was the same not done after the IDF killings?

[shira]

5. Do you know the precise circumstances WRT this killing? What evidence...

...are you going by?

Palestinian news sources?

Gideon Levy?

Are you aware of Israel's position?

[azurnoir]

6. The source for this OP is a Ha'aretz editorial

and here from +972

Two weeks ago, undercover IDF soldiers carrying out a drill in a Palestinian village in the West Bank killed a resident after several mistook them for burglars and attacked them. Israeli press buried the real story: The fact that the IDF used Palestinians as drill props – and killed one.

Ynet sure knows how to bury the lede: They report that a Duvdevan Unit soldier was dismissed from his unit after kicking the face of a handcuffed Palestinian two weeks ago. Such a dismissal, were it attended by several months in prison, would indeed be a proper punishment; but this is not the important story.

How did the Palestinian find himself in handcuffs in the first place? Well, a team of armed Duvdevan soldiers (who wander around dressed as Palestinians, not in uniform and without obvious weaponry) decided to hold an infiltration practice drill in a Palestinian village. Their infiltration skills were not up to snuff, as it turned out, and the villagers – who suffered recently from a wave of burglaries – took them for burglars, and attacked them with cold weapons, wounding one. The gunmen opened fire, wounding two of the people who were trying to defend their home and property. One of them later died of his wounds. The other was kicked in the face while handcuffed.

So, the IDF punished a soldier who acted in an unprofessional yet excusable way – such actions by soldiers after their comrades are hit is unbecoming yet unavoidable; this is the price of unleashing the beast in man, by turning him into a soldier – but refrained from punishing the people who decided Palestinians are so lacking in basic human properties, that they may be used as extras in a military exercise which may, as it turned out, include live fire. The IDF has been practicing on Palestinians for months now, perhaps years, and this time the practice went bad – and, worst of all from the IDF’s point of view, made it to the press. The soldier who lost control was dismissed; the officers who planned the exercise on live human beings and the soldiers armed with live weapons – that is the people responsible for the death of the villager, will remain in their posts.

http://972mag.com/undercover-idf-soldier-kills-palestinian-in-drill-goes-unpunished/42493/

I know if Times of Israel or Israel National News doesn't print it can't be true right?

[holdencaufield]

7. An op ed...

... written by reporters who weren't there, who interviewed only one side in the event, who have no physical evidence and not a clue why the IDF was conducting operations in the area and what the brothers did to engage them is MORE than enough to condemn the IDF as murderers.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. I must have missed that particular bit of the editorial...

They didn't condemn the IDF as being murderers.

And have you got any evidence whatsoever that the incident didn't happen the way it's been reported? It's just that I've noticed that while you instantly accept any report that's negative about Palestinians, you have a record of questioning or disbelieving any account of violence towards Palestinians. You really should use the same standard for both Israelis and Palestinians...

[kayecy]

10. Over to you holdencaufield.....Why has the IDF not investigated the matter?

... written by reporters who weren't there, who interviewed only one side in the event

Very true......but if they hadn't written about it, no one ever know about the incident....The IDF who were there apparently had no intention of investigating the matter.

Over to you holdencaufield....The IDF have not denied that something like the action reported took place....A Palestinian was killed.........Why has the IDF not apparently investigated the matter?.......Why is shooting Palestinians treated so lightly by the IDF?

[holdencaufield]

11. And you know...

... the IDF hasn't made or isn't making their own investigation how? Because a hostile OP ED told you? You place a lot of faith in the OP ED section of Ha'aretz and 972mag.com. Much more than I would have thought they deserve.

Does the US Army, or any other army for that matter, make the findings of ongoing investigations public? Back to you, why do you continuously hold Israel to higher standards than the rest of the world? Since you don't judge Israels on their actions relative to everyone else, could it be something other than the actions of the IDF and something about the people living in Israel you don't like?

[Violet_Crumble]

12. I'll ask again. Where's yr evidence that the accounts of the incident are wrong?

And have you got any examples of incidents where Palestinians have been killed by the IDF where you haven't rushed in to justify? See, when it comes to different standards, you appear to hold very different standards when it comes to Palestinian deaths as opposed to Israeli ones. I think you really need to take a step back and have a think about the very simple concept that Palestinian and Israeli lives are equally valuable, and move on from there...

[kayecy]

13. You apparently, without any evidence to the contrary, do not believe the Haretz report.....

And you know..... the IDF hasn't made or isn't making their own investigation how?

If you bothered to read the original article you would have found the following:

The details of this serious incident, which happened on March 23, were chronicled by Gideon Levy and Alex Levac ("The 'burglars' were soldiers," Haaretz, May 4 ). The IDF claimed at first that three "terrorists" had tried to stab IDF soldiers and announced that it would not open a Military Police probe - contrary to the policy of investigating any killing in the territories........Only a month later, following the intervention of the human rights group B'Tselem, did the IDF reverse its surprising initial decision and the Military Advocate General ordered an investigation

I believe that account to be largely true......You apparently, without any evidence to the contrary, do not.....Are you the sort of person that believes officialdom is always right or are you prepared to admit that the report warrants some checks on your part before you suggest it is a pack of lies?

So far you have not produced any evidence that the Haaretz & B'Tselem "Unnecessary killings" reports were substantially untrue...............I challenge you to produce one scrap of evidence!



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Back to you, why do you continuously hold Israel to higher standards than the rest of the world?

Please show me where I have held Israel to higher standards than I expect from any liberal democracy..........I suggest this is merely another attempt of yours to sow doubt without any evidence.


If you can produce evidence of a similar instance of "cover-up" by any liberal democracy which has then gone on to avoid an investigation, I shall be the first to accuse them of collusion in criminal acts.
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[Violet_Crumble]

14. I've already asked them several times to come up with some evidence and they've not done so...

Not sure why you think yr going to have any more luck asking than I did...

[shira]

15. Haaretz and +972 are not credible sources.

Last edited Sun May 13, 2012, 09:38 AM - Edit history (2)

Both have been known to exaggerate claims vs. Israel and the IDF, tell half-truths, and outright lies. Never against the Palestinians, however.

For OP-ED's, knock yourself out with those sources. The more dirt vs. Israel, the better in your opinion. That's fine, but WRT news and facts, both sources have been known to make crap up. You may as well quote from state-run Hamas and PLO newspapers.

[kayecy]

16. Evidence dear Shira....Do you have any or are you merely speculating?

Haaretz (especially Gideon Levy) and +972 are not credible sources.

Evidence dear Shira....Do you have any or are you merely speculating?.......Let's start with Haaretz Editorial.....I challenge you to produce any previous Haaretz Editorial that has been shown to be "not credible".


Then there is B'Tselem's intervention and the Military Advocate General ordering an investigation. ........Is that all Haaretz lies?


If you don't believe a Haaretz Editorial, what source would you consider credible?.......How about the Israeli Ministry of foreign Affairs?........If you look on their press site http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Archive/Editorials/2012/Editorials-6-May-2012.htm you will see that they summarise the Haaretz article........Why would they do that if they thought it "not credible"?

[shira]

17. Here's a load...

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55

Not that you'll be convinced. I'm pretty sure you still believe the Islamists attacking the IDF on the Marmara were and still are humanitarians and peace activists. Am I right?



B'tselem is no better, being another advocacy organization. Their "errors" are legion.

Here's an article from last week on B'tselem's awful reporting on OCL....
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=269051

As for Israeli websites like the IMFA summarizing articles, so what? The fact is no one in Israel takes Haaretz seriously. Are you aware of that? Maybe 5% at most. Their circulation numbers in Israel are minuscule as no one reads them.

[kayecy]

18. My goodness, Shira, you are scraping the barrel.........

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55

My goodness, you are scraping the barrel...Are you really comparing Camera to the Haaretz?

Writing in The Nation in 1987, journalist and author Robert I. Friedman said "CAMERA, the A.D.L., AIPAC and the rest of the lobby don't want fairness, but bias in their favor. And they are prepared to use McCarthyite tactics, as well as the power and money of pro-Israel PACs, to get whatever Israel wants."

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Shira.......Even you can't think the Haaretz Editorial would deliberately lie about such an incedent, lie that the IDF refused to investigate?.......Anyway, if Haaretz was lying, why hasn't Camera, JP, YNET, Jerusalem NewsWire and the rest of the right-wing attack-press not got onto it by now?.....Perhaps you had better tell them of your suspicions that Haaretz was lying.......Just think what Camera could make of it!
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[shira]

19. See, I knew you'd do this. That's why I wrote it's pointless trying to convince someone...

...like yourself of any facts, given that you probably still maintain (for example) that the Islamist fundamentalists with the clubs and knives on the Marmara were humanitarians and peace activists.

When we can't agree on something that obvious, then arguing anything else is just a circus.

[kayecy]

20. What an earth have Islamists, clubs & knives got to do with your claim?

.... it's pointless trying to convince someone like yourself of any facts, given that you probably still maintain (for example) that the Islamist fundamentalists with the clubs and knives on the Marmara

You claimed the Haaretz was lying about the IDF and the Kafr Ramun incident but to date you have produced no evidence to support your claim...It is not a case of whether you and I disagree, it is a case whether the incident happened or not.

I have quoted Haaretz, B'tselem, +972 and the MFA as evidence that the incident did happen......If you really believe Haaretz was lying, you can simply contact the Military Advocate General and ask if the Haaretz report was true.......In any other democracy, such a claim by a major newspaper would automatically be investigated and commented on.

You know that Camera etc would be on to such lying immediately but you still prefer to be pig-headed and not believe the IDF could refuse to investigate the killing of a mere Palestinian.



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The interesting thing for me is that there is at least one active DU member who is an IDF officer......He must be in a position to make enquiries about whether the incident took place or not, yet he has chosen to remain silent!
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[shira]

21. The point is no amount of evidence would ever be good enough for you.

To prove that, I brought up the Marmara incident. But feel free to prove me wrong. Let me know in your very next post whether you believe (2 years later) those guys were humanitarian peace activists or violent Islamist thugs.

We can then move on.

The point being, that incident was reported falsely. "Eyewitness testimony", for example, of IDF special forces rappelling down while firing into the crowd, has been shown to be complete nonsense due to the tapes. You, however, seem to accept any eyewitness testimony that portrays Israelis in a negative way, including the Haaretz and +972 op-eds.

Only irrationally compromised "religious" types (and compulsive liars) could possibly still maintain the media had the flotilla story right (peace activists and humanitarians killed by the IDF) and that the IDF troops were firing into the crowd before or during the rappelling down to the top deck.

You require evidence disproving Haaretz. My point is that I'm quite certain you're impervious to any evidence and that it would take 110% proof, and then some, to get you to accept that sources you trust are wrong.

Again, do you believe those people on deck attacking the IDF in those videos were humanitarians and peace activists? Or were they the complete opposite? People who should never be confused for genuine peace activists and humanitarians?

I'll wait, not that I expect you to answer. There's a reason why Finkelstein used the term "cult" to describe the flotillistas (and IMO their western cheerleaders). But come on, please please please answer either way. Prove me wrong....

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You asked for evidence Haaretz is not credible and I provided lots of it. You chose to deflect/shoot the messenger and ignore all that since it doesn't conform to your beliefs.

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Now, thinking back, people didn't know enough information to counter the initial reports from the Marmara. However, many knew before the IDF videos to wait it out and see. That's what I intend to do here WRT the latest Haaretz and +972 claims. I have very good reason to question their reports. Based on their lack of credibility WRT past reports, I think I have good reason to suspect something's fishy. The CAMERA link is more than enough evidence of that.

[kayecy]

29. Shira – You have chosen to change a political discussion into an attack on my integrity

Shira – You have chosen to change a political discussion into an attack on my integrity. You have made two personal accusations:

1.The point is no amount of evidence would ever be good enough for you.

What basis have you for making such an accusation? Have you seen me reject evidence in any of my posts?

2. My point is that I'm quite certain you're impervious to any evidence and that it would take 110% proof, and then some, to get you to accept that sources you trust are wrong.

How can you be “quite certain” I’m impervious to any evidence?......You have examples of my “imperviousness”?


When you have shown that your accusations have some foundation I shall be quite happy to discuss the Marmara or any other incident with you.


Should you be unable to substantiate your accusations it will be yet another example of an Israeli-apologist introducing a red-herring to divert attention from the abuse of Palestinians by Israeli institutions.
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[shira]

30. Based on previous discussions with you, I have reason to believe that no amount of...

...evidence would suffice in order for you to change your mind and admit the "narrative" (Israel and IDF = evil) is false.

I didn't think you'd answer the question. I even challenged you to prove me wrong. I realize it's way too much to expect you or your colleagues here to admit that the Islamists on the top deck of the Marmara were not humanitarians and peace activists. That you cannot admit it several posts later proves my point. That's just one example of hundreds. The point being that you're impervious to facts, as well as logical reasoning that proves the "narrative" to be false.

There's a reason Finkelstein calls the anti-zionist crowd a cult. I agree with him on that. I really and truly see no difference between the antizionist cultists and any other people involved in religious cults. They are impervious to facts and reasoning as well.

[kayecy]

31. But nevertheless you cannot produce a single example of such a discussion.......

Based on previous discussions with you, I have reason to believe that no amount of.....evidence would suffice in order for you to change your mind and admit the "narrative" (Israel and IDF = evil) is false

But nevertheless you cannot produce a single example of such a discussion.......

As I said Shira, you are the epitomy of an Israeli-apologist that will introduce red-herrings to divert attention from the rest of the world seeing how Israeli official institutions treat Palestinion deaths.


.......................

I realize it's way too much to expect you or your colleagues here to admit that the Islamists on the top deck of the Marmara were not humanitarians and peace activists

I am sorry to disappoint you Shira, but having read the Israeli Tulcarum report I am prepared to believe that there were some 40 IHH activists, (militants or whatever you prefer to call them), on board the Marmara.

The Marmara was in international waters and the activists used clubs and knives to try and stop IDF marines armed with automatic weapons from boarding and taking over control of their ship.....Was such a defence unreasonable?

Nine of the activists were shot dead.


Can I ask you now to apologise for your accusations?

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[shira]

32. This example should suffice, and you haven't answered the question yet...

Were those people who were killed on the Marmara top deck humanitarian peace activists?

Yes or No?

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Their "defense", if that's what you wish to call it, was unreasonable. The IDF boarded all other ships in the flotilla without an incident. The Islamists (pro-Hamas, etc) wanted a fight and that's what they got.

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btw, here's a thread where you couldn't admit you were wrong, facts mean nothing to you if they bust the anti-I narrative, etc...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x338130

[kayecy]

33. Shira.....I await an apology for your public slur on my integrity......

Were those people who were killed on the Marmara top deck humanitarian peace activists?

Yes or No?

I do not believe they were humanitarian peace activists.



I await an apology for your public slur on my integrity......


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Can we get back now to the Haaretz Editorial, the B'tselem report and the YNET article on the March 23rd Kafr Ramun incident?

However, many knew before the IDF videos to wait it out and see. That's what I intend to do here WRT the latest Haaretz and +972 claims

You propose to wait for what?.....For the IDF to investigate itself when it has already refused to do so?

I believe it is official IDF policy to investigate any killing in the territories, but policy and practice in the IDF seem to be different.
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[shira]

34. Yep, sorry. And I must say I'm shocked @ your answer...

It's pretty much an admittance that the progressive or international anti-I Left is working alongside and collaborating with far right murderous extreme Islamists who were looking to confront the hated Joooz.

That said, Haaretz, B'tselem, and +972 should not be taken as credible sources against the IDF or Israeli government since they too are (for the most part) part of the progressive anti-I delegitimizing Left that spews the extreme Islamist viewpoint.

That particular Left has been wrong so many times WRT Israel, with outright lies, half truths, and lies by omission that it makes no sense to automatically accept anything they say/report as factual. It makes much more sense to wait it out until all the facts are known.

[kayecy]

35. An admission of a wrongful acusation from Shira!......

An admission of a wrongful acusation by Shira!......Well that is a start.

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Now go on to explain why you think CAMERA, IMRA and the rest of the right-wing attack press haven't castigated Haaretz for publishing wat you think are lies?

Look at the recent Haaretz 'major faults' CAMERA has unearthed:

May 16 - Haaretz conflicting Nakba headlines clashes or quiet?

May 13 - Haaretz corects Nakba law lost in translation

May 9 - Haarets pictire of contradictions (over dates)

May 6 - Haaretz lost in translation

You are not prepared to believe the Haaretz report on the Kafr Ramun incident (published May 6th) and yet CAMERA is so desperate to find fault with the Haaretz that it proudly lists the above trivialities. Is it likely that CAMERA would miss an opportunity to catch Haaretz out in a major lie?
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A human being has been killed.....You seem happy that, breaking its own rules, the IDF have refused to investigate the incident....Would you have been equally indifferent had it been an Israeli who had been shot instead of a mere Arab?
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[azurnoir]

22. let's ask a central question just what does the Dudivan unit do?

What were they doing in the Palestinian village in question? why was one member of unit disciplined?

please shira several publications have written about the incident in this OP

your op-ed written by the president of NGO Monitor on an unrelated subject that is more than 3 years past should be taken as the word of??????

and BTW your goal post changing isn't working too well this time

[shira]

23. I don't think know enough to say either way, do we? n/t

[azurnoir]

24. so Ynet must lie too?

The incident occurred two weeks ago, when a number of undercover soldiers left on an exercise in the West Bank village of Ramon, and were suddenly attacked by four Palestinians who assaulted them with a knife and an iron rod; one of the soldiers was moderately injured in the incident.


The soldiers responded by opening fire, and hit two of the Palestinians; one of them was seriously injured and died of his wounds several days later at Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem.


After the situation was under control, the soldiers called for military backup and medical assistance. While waiting for the units to arrive, one of the soldiers kicked in the face one of the Palestinians who was sitting on the ground bound, in front of his friends.



After probing the incident, the IDF decided to relieve the soldier from duty, and he may face a Military Police investigation as well. IDF officials stressed that the soldiers acted with utmost professionalism and responded according to protocol, considering the complex circumstances of the incident.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4217835,00.html

[shira]

25. What you cited is a separate issue. The soldier who kicked the face...

...of the Palestinian was clearly in the wrong.

The point of the exercise or drill (and the role of the 4 Palestinians) is another issue entirely.

[azurnoir]

28. no it's not in fact according to most accounts the 2 Palestinians were brothers n/t

[holdencaufield]

26. A totally different narrative from...

..."we were just standing around minding our own business and IDF came and shot us" version of the story in the OP ED.

[azurnoir]

27. perhaps you should ummm read the OP because that is not what it says n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

8. No, of course not. Now, back to the OP, do you think that killing was unnecessary?

I'd be curious to know...