LGBT
Related: About this forumThe Gay Male Couple’s Guide to Nonmonogamy
http://www.advocate.com/Arts_and_Entertainment/Features/The_Gay_Male_Couple_Guide_to_Nonmonogamy/Mikey Rox and Everett Earl Morrow, both now 30, were committed to monogamy when they met and fell in love. That was five years ago. After a couple instances of infidelity to which we both confessed, we decided its not realistic to expect either of us to never hook up with anyone else ever again, says Rox, principal of Paper Rox Scissors Copy and Creative in Manhattan. The legally married couple has had an open relationship for the last two years. Who wouldnt want to be allowed to hook up with other guys and have their husband be OK with it? he asks. Isnt that what most men dream of, and isnt the limitation of sex with one partner in a marriage the reason why so many people cheat? Adds Morrow, As two men, sex isnt particularly emotional for either of us. That enables us to separate our love for one another from the occasional physical attraction we may have for another guy.
Matthew and Pablo, married 40-something realtors in Palm Springs, Calif., were monogamous for the first eight of their 15 years together. We sort of just fell into our open relationship, says Matthew. Its been a slow evolution. In the beginning, we only played together, which made it feel less threatening. They still enjoy the occasional threesome, but for the last few years have increasingly sought sex outside the relationship.
Jelle and Guido, both 44-year-old ground personnel for an international airline in Amsterdam, have been together since 1997. For 10 years monogamy reigned. But when physical attraction waned, sex fell by the wayside and the relationship soured, eventually hitting rock bottom. The two figured they had nothing to lose, opened up their relationship, and saved it. Im really happy, says Guido. It made our relationship stronger. Im glad hes my partner, I love him, and I believe it was a wise decision to give each other the freedom we needed. Adds Jelle: There are so many things keeping us together: love, trust, friendship, security, common hobbies and interests, humor, a shoulder to cry on. Much too much to give up for that tiny but oh so important aspect in life that is sex.
Although no one knows for sure how many gay couples are in open relationships, or whether they are on the decline, its certain these men are not alone. I would feel comfortable saying that at least four out of five long-term gay male couples are not monogamous, says Beverly Hills sexologist Winston Wilde. Monogamy rarely does work for more than two years for most straight and bi men as well.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Open relationships are the rule among the long term partnered male couples I know.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)my experience has been -- an intense honey moon -- and then negotiations for how to go forward.
DURHAM D
(32,609 posts)In the 60s and 70s every male couple I knew was in an open relationship. As a lesbian it was fascinating to watch and realize that they had a good working model for maintaining long term relationships. Some lesbians felt threatened by the setup but I just watched and passed no judgment. Well frankly I was envious.
Once the plague arrived my male couple friends tried to re-tool and be more like us. It was difficult - It was painful - It didn't work.
The best marriages I have observed over the years are between nonmonogamous gay males and a few nonmonogamous hetero couples.
The article describes the essentials of making an open relationship work. The rules are the same now as they were then - You just gotta talk to each other.
cheers
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Bull shit.
That's about all I have to say.
EDIT TO ADD: What really irritates me is when people try to speak for others. Speak for your self (author of the article) and your relationships. What works for you works for you, what works for me works for me. I'd appreciate not being told who I should love or how I should love them. Thanks. (That is directed to the author of the article not the OP.) To each, their own.
William769
(55,146 posts)Thanks for saying this.... as someone needed to!
Just another article for the Christian Terrorists to cherry pick from to brow beat the GLBTQI community....
Mind you, I'm not blowing shit to the OP for posting the story, as I think we all should be well informed about the information floating around about us, and our lives... But I mean really..... did the author only ask his friends how they dealt with being sexually bored? As of course, they will all have the same answer.....
Ask a group of haters how they feel about Queers, and see if the answer deviates by much......
Birds Of A Feather, Flock Together...
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)It is a statement the author (not the OP) states as fact. I take issue with this presumption.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)At least, I'm not aware of any such studies or other impartial substantiation for that claim. Can you please post a link to same? Thanks in advance.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)And I bet neither can you. I've seen very few long lasting relationships that I actually believed were monogamous. In some cases it's claimed, but I've seen with my own eyes that it's not. Perhaps it's a difference between Urban and Rural couples? who knows?
closeupready
(29,503 posts)That's how it works.
Your anecdotal experience is interesting, but not exactly a random sample of gay people. So you really can not generalize from your personal anecdotes to larger populations, and expect others to view it as Truth as you do.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)>>To answer the research question, I used t tests to compare the 73 couples identifying themselves as monogamous to the 48 self-reported open dyads (see Table 2). There were no significant differences on demographic variables or length of relationship, dyadic adjustment, affectional expression, dyadic consensus, or dyadic cohesion.Monogamous couples scored significantly lower (p < .05) on dyadic satisfaction than their open counterparts. However, when broken monogamous agreement couples were removed from the monogamous group, there was no longer a significant difference between monogamous and nonmonogamous couples on dyadic satisfaction.<<
73 of 121, or almost 2/3, of couples identified their relationship as monogamous, not open.
The researcher then continues to identify couples that are in "broken monogamous agreement" relationships. That does NOT indicate that they are then "non-monogamous"; it means that one or both partners broke the agreement.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)If not having sex outside of the relationship, thereby MAKING it non-monogamous.
If someone says they're in a monogamous relationship, yet has sex outside of that relationship, two things are true. 1. They're lying. 2. They are NOT in a monogamous relationship.
If saying you're monogamous while having outside sex doesn't count as non-monogamy, then what does?
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)40 monogamous couples: 48 non-monogamous couples: 33 broken monogamy couples.
Given that, 40:48, which is the majority?
closeupready
(29,503 posts)nt
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)The data clearly bear that out.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Post-facto commencement of relationship, there is infidelity, NOT a transition to a non-monogamous relationship.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Most long term relationships are non-monogamous. It's very clear in the data.
And, having sex with people other than one's one-and-only partner while declaring monogamy doesn't make one part of a monogamous couple any more than saying you're the King of Mars makes you the King of Mars.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Period.
It shows that almost 2/3 of gay couples agree to monogamous relationships.
So the data actually shows that you are completely wrong.
It also shows that in some gay relationships in which monogamy was agreed to, infidelity later occurs.'
That does NOT equate to agreeing to an open relationship.
You are attempting to equate infidelity with open relationships.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Monogamy is rarer among gay male couples than non-monogamy and open relationships. The data are unequivocal on that point.
You're saying that the couples that weren't monogamous, but said they were should be counted as monogamous, and I say they shouldn't be. Even if they're not counted as open relationships, they must be excluded from the numbers of "monogamous" relationships, as they're NOT monogamous!
#Open relationships>#Monogamous relationships. it's right there in the data.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)To draw an analogy, when you marry someone, and then later get divorced, it is false to claim you were never married.
I get that maybe you are disappointed that the world doesn't live up to high ideals. That doesn't mean we don't all aspire to health, happiness, prosperity and love for everyone.
Peace to you, MNBrewer.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Studies show that it is either conflicted or likely impacted by outside forces such as the illegality of same sex marriage... (http://books.google.com/books?id=dXccg9o9zZkC&lpg=PA475&ots=jFLJTlg9PM&dq=gay%20monogamy%20study&lr&pg=PA463#v=onepage&q=gay%20monogamy%20study&f=false)
Likewise some studies I have read, find no difference between "straight" and "gay" percentages for monogamous or polyamorous relationships. For example... (http://www.ftfhalland.se/filer/MongamyArticlePublished.pdf)
Of course, the major issue with sex studies is that very few are done regarding these issues even today. It is also hard to determine, because the studies are usually based on people's verbal statements. Take from that what you want.
In my personal experience, I find that the previous study seems to hold most true. The growth of the marriage equality movement seems to encourage our youngest members to be monogamous. Of course, I would argue that you can't make someone one or the other, but can only support what their true nature is in surfacing. But I digress. Such things are speculation. In my life, I have seen the desire for meaningful monogamous relationships to be in the majority at least 2 to 1 within the LGBT community.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)50%? 35%?
In my life I've seen the desire for meaningful non-monogamous relationships to be in the majority 10-1.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Results: Frequencies
"In the sample, 73 couples (60.3%) reported that their relationship agreements were monogamous, and 48 (39.6%) stated that they were in sexually open/nonmonogamous relationships. In 33 (45.2%) of the 73 monogamous agreement couples, 1 or both partners reported outside sex since the beginning of the relationship; 17 (51.5%) of the broken monogamous agreement couples reported outside sex in the past year."
While 73 (60.3%) of the copules said they were monogamous and 48 (39.6%) said non-monogamous, 33 of those "monogamous" couples were not. Therefore 40 (33%) were actually monogamous, and 81 (67%) non-monogamous.
There is a stark difference between the ratios of monogamy:non-monogamy if it's based on what the couples say and what they do. In reality, most of the couples were non-monogamous.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)The first link. And ask, how many black couples were monogamous before they were allowed to marry? Society plays a large role in how we act as individuals as the first link describes. IMHO the number of monogamous gays (for instance) has greatly increased in places where society fully accepts them.
But to each their own. It really doesn't matter who is in the majority, but that both are accepted as equals in society, that everyone is allowed to behave as their hearts' desire. Circling back to the quote previously, it is decidedly one-sided and I disagree with that mentality.
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)The "standard" is monogamy. With GLBT folks trying to gain rights to marraige, many people still associate marriage with monogamy, and thus, gays should be in monogamous. In reality (or rather, my opinion), how one conducts his/her relationship is of NO concern to others, unless it infringes on others' rights. All open relationships are not the same. Some are very strict, others are more casual. One of my first experiences with someone in an open relationship was a heterosexual married couple of 22 years. I'll admit I had been indoctrinated with the idea of monogamy, but the more I listened to Mama-San, the more an open relationship made sense for their situation.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)my partner straying.
once i looked at my self -- i realized i wasn't a monogamous creature.
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)We struggle with coming to grips with our sexual orientation. Then, we struggle with the decision to "come out" and to whom/when/to what level. Then we muddle through the sexual experiences looking for our "cup of tea." Finally, when struggle to get into and maintain a relationship. Personally, with all the struggling we do, I think a time comes when many of us just say "FUCK YOU! I KNOW who I am! And if you don't like it PISS OFF!"
I think the idea of monogamy is oversold. Just like people come in all types, shades, colors, and orientations, we also have different ways to express ourselves in relationships of our making.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)all those struggles you spoke of -- and then i experienced a bad bout of jealousy -- nothing i will ever put my self or any body else through.
i finally took a deep breath -- exhaled and accepted my self.
* i'm not equating nonmonogamy w/ being gay -- to those who might think i was.
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)It was just one more "identity" to which you had to accept or deny. You chose to accept it. I believe we live in such a "sex-negative" cullture, that anything, even remotely, considered outside the "norm/standard" is looked down upon and is expected to be a source of shame and embarassment.
On a side note, I didn't think you were equating being gay with nonmonogamy. But, isn't it interesting you felt the need to add the caveat? I look at it as nipping it in the bud.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)BigDemVoter
(4,150 posts)I've done both monogamous & non, and I'm currently single, so you see that neither one worked for me
I'm not exactly partial to either, but as somebody earlier stated, the first 2 years are often monogamous for many couples before they reevaluate. So, perhaps I'd find myself quite content in a monogamous situation under certain circumstances & NOT under others.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Sometimes it's situational.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)HBB and I had some long talks when we got together and we both came to the conclusion that it's not the outside sex that causes the jealousy, it's the feeling of being excluded. It has been our experience that men will stray, so we decided that "straying" together made sense for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is looking out for and taking care of each other. That is, sometimes the little head tries to take charge of the big head and the "crazy filter" doesn't kick in. I trust HBB to say, "I know you think he's hot, and I think he's real cute, too, but my crazy-detector is going off." and vice versa. There's a lot of dysfunction out in the community and we don't need it.
If someone is fixated on one of us but doesn't want anything to do with the other, that's also a red flag. We're a unit, even when we, uh, entertain a guest. It's not "two with one" in any direction: it's three having an equally good time at play. Any other situation is unfair. If nothing else, our relationship runs on being strictly fair and strictly honest with one another. Above anything else, we cherish our dead-honest friendship with one another. That has been the strong foundation of our relationship since day one. We trust each other's counsel without reservation.
Besides, it's as much fun to watch while you're catching your breath When morning arrives and everyone is equally sore and grinning we consider that a success. Almost reliably, we pounce each other again when Guest bids adieu.
So, no, we see nothing wrong with extracurricular activities as long as everyone is aware of and follows the ground rules.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)have led a largely monogamous relationship for 23 years. Prior to meeting him (I was 35, he 39) I was quite promiscuous, while he was in an 18 year marriage. After his divorce, we met and I fell for him immediately. Since then we've jointly explored outside opportunities a few times but always as a couple. I was stunned to learn years ago that he was actually jealous of me which really made me reconsider my basic assumptions about myself.
I'm forced to be completely honest with him because, after so many years he knows me too well for me to lie successfully, even if I wanted to. I've never been very good at it and his perceptiveness rules it out as an option now.
Part of our situation is, of course, due to our location. Options are somewhat limited in semi-rural Mississippi as you might suppose. Also, almost immediately after we fell in love we gave up the bar scene. The only ones in our area are 30 miles away and not that exciting when you know who you're going home with. We really only know a handful of gay people here so there's really not much competition.
Add to all that the fact that the two of us have very similar likes and dislikes, share political views, enjoy the same hobbies and he smells really, really good. Plus we share a taste in looking at and talking about men.
I'm not endorsing monogamy. Actually, I think its kind of silly when pursued as an end in itself. In our case it happened naturally and worked out well for us. And, as I said, its "largely" monogamous. I have this one really hot friend from college....
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)we cherish our friendship and guard it above all else. Even when the truth might hurt, we tell it and accept each other's advice. There's not a piece of @$$ in the world worth trading for that. But the rare occasions when we have a guest in, the ground rules are that the situation is a three-way, not two with each other leaving any one out.
In everything we do, from cooking to shopping to chores to having a playdate, HBB and I enjoy doing everything together. The watchword in our relationship is "be fair". Everything else flows naturally from cooking to shopping to chores to having a playdate. HBB is still the sexiest thing I see and he's not just my partner -- he's the best friend I've ever had.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)It makes life so freaking easy, and fun.
I'm glad HBB is doing well. I know how worried you were.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)Thanks for the good wishes. We're so not out of the woods yet, just taking one day at a time.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)it's even anyone's business but those who are involved in it.
theAntiRand
(40 posts)So the sex got stale and sleeping with others somehow brings them closer together? I don't follow the logic.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)some kind of logic right?
You will, whippersnapper, as you get older.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)Ain't that a fact!
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Each person has differing desires and goals in relationships. To each their own. It has nothing to do with age.
Call Me Wesley
(38,187 posts)Welcome to DU, btw.
GodlessBiker
(6,314 posts)Whatever works for each couple is good.