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HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:02 PM Feb 2012

What Is Traditional Chinese Medicine?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/what-is-traditional-chinese-medicine/

"...

It may be trivially true that TCM has a long history, but it is hard to ignore that the placement of this statement at the beginning of a scientific article implies an argument from antiquity – that TCM should be taken seriously because of this long history. I would argue that this is actually a reason to be suspicious of TCM, for it derives from a pre-scientific largely superstition-based culture, similar in this way to the pre-scientific Western culture that produced the humoral (Galenic) theory of biology.

The next line is an admission that TCM is largely based on anecdotal information, described as the “precious experience” of life. This is a point that is often overlooked or not understood by proponents but central to the scientific/skeptical position – what is the value and predictive power of “precious experience” in developing a system of medicine?

I maintain that there are many good reasons to conclude that any system which derives from everyday experience is likely to be seriously flawed and almost entirely cut off from reality. Obvious short term effects, the lowest hanging fruit of observation, are likely to be reliable. Uncontrolled observation is a reasonable way to discover which plants, for example, are deadly poisons. This is likely to produce some false positives but few false negatives, which is fine for survival.

Other obvious effects, like nausea, diarrhea, and psychedelic effects are also easy to discover. Similarly it was probably obvious that people need to eat, breathe, and drink in order to stay healthy and alive. But records of pre-scientific thinking about health and disease shows that little else was.

..."


------------------


Can we please get back to discussing health care via the scientific method?

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What Is Traditional Chinese Medicine? (Original Post) HuckleB Feb 2012 OP
Du rec. Nt xchrom Feb 2012 #1
Anything... BiggJawn Feb 2012 #2
Something like this.. pipoman Feb 2012 #3
How about the monkeys who discovered that eating charcoal Voice for Peace Feb 2012 #4
isn't that something? KT2000 Feb 2012 #5
agree Voice for Peace Feb 2012 #24
To understand Traditional Chinese Medicine KT2000 Feb 2012 #6
AMen, not all TCM uses animal parts and in fact, most of it doesn't. Ecumenist Feb 2012 #7
Actually, acupuncture is pretty well understood in the "west." laconicsax Feb 2012 #8
Hmm Really? So, I suppose the acupuncture I received to control a bleeding problem that Ecumenist Feb 2012 #9
Ah, yes. Reality as determined by anecdote. laconicsax Feb 2012 #12
My dear, I understand so much more medically than you can begin to imagine... Ecumenist Feb 2012 #13
What a lovely appeal to authority. laconicsax Feb 2012 #14
You know, trying to tell what my experience was and those of many other people were Ecumenist Feb 2012 #15
The Role of Anecdotes in Science-Based Medicine HuckleB Feb 2012 #20
Some believe that personal experience, or personal p.o.v., has no validity. Voice for Peace Feb 2012 #26
That's what I've decided. It's NOT anecdotal. I had PHYSICAL CHANGES that had not Ecumenist Feb 2012 #27
Actually, the issue is that those who want to push anecdotes don't want to challenge their beliefs. HuckleB Feb 2012 #28
A link Dorian Gray Feb 2012 #22
+1000 n/t Former_DU_Member Feb 2012 #30
you bring up reality Voice for Peace Feb 2012 #25
Yes - I was just making KT2000 Feb 2012 #10
Exactly. I agree with you. Ecumenist Feb 2012 #11
The OP has a complete understanding of it. HuckleB Feb 2012 #18
You mean the kind of "complete and accurate understanding" skepticscott Feb 2012 #21
Explain how the OP is a "straw man argument." HuckleB Feb 2012 #19
+1000 BuddhaGirl Feb 2012 #23
When we take science back from corporations, you might have a point saras Feb 2012 #16
What does this red herring have to do with anything? HuckleB Feb 2012 #17
It has to do with there being TWO crap systems, not just one saras Feb 2012 #31
That does not come close to answering the question. HuckleB Feb 2012 #32
Acupuncture and history: The “ancient” therapy that’s been around for several decades HuckleB Feb 2012 #29
If I am unwell... Why Syzygy Feb 2012 #33
I hate to break it to you... laconicsax Feb 2012 #34
silly Why Syzygy Feb 2012 #35
That herring has a lovely shade of red. n/t laconicsax Feb 2012 #36
If the evidence is clear that something does not work, then why would you allow people to lie? HuckleB Feb 2012 #37

BiggJawn

(23,051 posts)
2. Anything...
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:38 PM
Feb 2012

... that uses body parts of endangered species as "treatment" for erectile dysfunction in wealthy Chinese men.

KT2000

(20,567 posts)
5. isn't that something?
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:47 AM
Feb 2012

their life of play and activity compared to the monkeys with the same diet without charcoal is amazing. All they can do is sit around in discomfort.

I have a hard time believing that our cures for common ills depend upon the evolution of the pharmaceutical companies.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
24. agree
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:27 PM
Feb 2012

I frankly don't trust most of the modern medical 'science' which I think overlooks the forest for the trees. Give me something that's worked safely for a thousand years, and I'll take my chances.

KT2000

(20,567 posts)
6. To understand Traditional Chinese Medicine
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:56 AM
Feb 2012

one should really go to China where it is studied by MDs as a specialty.
This article is only setting up TCM for a straw man argument.

Ecumenist

(6,086 posts)
7. AMen, not all TCM uses animal parts and in fact, most of it doesn't.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:05 AM
Feb 2012

Until one uses it because pharmaceutical meds haven't worked, in my case, one can never know how effective it really is. Alot of it isn't understood and remember, 5000 years would have done away with TCM if it was worthless. Just like Acunpuncture, it's modes of efficacy isn't well understood in the west but it works. Trust you me, I know firsthand.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
8. Actually, acupuncture is pretty well understood in the "west."
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:16 AM
Feb 2012

That understanding has shown that sticking needles in your skin releases adenosine, which acts as a natural pain-killer, but the location of the needles (or if you even use needles) doesn't make any difference. Uses for acupuncture outside of pain-relief have been shown to be solely the result of the placebo effect and there has been no evidence that "meridians" are anything other than fiction.

This, of course, applies only to modern acupuncture, which is vastly different from traditional acupuncture as practiced in the past. Traditional acupuncture was a form of blood-letting that involved bigger needles designed to draw blood and later cauterize the site.

Ecumenist

(6,086 posts)
9. Hmm Really? So, I suppose the acupuncture I received to control a bleeding problem that
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:20 AM
Feb 2012

t did NOT respond to meds was placebo, right? I also used acupuncture to assist in fertility treatment and it worked to help me conceive and hold on to the enbryo well into the second trimester when I hadn't been able to conceive at all and had gone through 5 transfer cycles. My fertility doc recommended and referred me to the acupuncture. All the placebo effect in the world couldn't accomplish that. Sorry.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
12. Ah, yes. Reality as determined by anecdote.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:34 AM
Feb 2012

It looks like you don't understand what placebo is or how it works.

Ecumenist

(6,086 posts)
13. My dear, I understand so much more medically than you can begin to imagine...
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:43 AM
Feb 2012

Are you seriously trying to tell me that my fertility doctor and countless other Fertility doctors are sending their patients to acupuncture based on anecdotal evidence? Really? You're honestly telling me with a straight face that my DUB that hadn't responded to pharma but did to acupuncture and TCM is a product of my mind...I was one of about 50 pateints that attended this GYNAECOLOGICAL ACUPUNCTURE clionic that were there based on RESULTS of other patients, not placebo effects. I was somewhat skeptical when I started and decided to give it a chance. My God, you can't be serious. Your statement is hilariously wrong. Wow....LOL!!!

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
14. What a lovely appeal to authority.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:50 AM
Feb 2012

Since you attended a gynecological acupuncture "clionic," surely you can state or describe the mechanisms by which acupuncture improves fertility. If you can provide large, double-blind studies that corroborate this effect, that'd be fantastic.

BTW, it seems that "skeptical" is another word you use without understanding what it means.

Ecumenist

(6,086 posts)
15. You know, trying to tell what my experience was and those of many other people were
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:53 AM
Feb 2012

is synonymous with showing up to a gun duel and you showing up with a nail file. Some people are worth debating with, you, however, are not. One last thing, Google, is your friend regarding fertility treatment that uses acupuncture to improve the results. There have been studies that have shown a significantly higher rate of conceptions in women who used acupuncture vs those that didn't. If you can read, please feel free.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
26. Some believe that personal experience, or personal p.o.v., has no validity.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:14 PM
Feb 2012

Not much openness to learning otherwise;
discussion is usually a big waste of time.

Ecumenist

(6,086 posts)
27. That's what I've decided. It's NOT anecdotal. I had PHYSICAL CHANGES that had not
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:47 PM
Feb 2012

happened when I was treated for years by the products of BIG PHARMA. Alot of meds Ihave be prescribed but the meds I used in relation to the DUB for 4 years and Endometriosis I had suffered for about 20 years. They had NOT responded to hormones. antagonists, and a huge variety of other prescriptions but they did respond to acupuncture and TCM. It wasn't sudden but a gradual thing.
The same thing happened when I first entered perimenopause a couple of years ago, the wild hormones swings, sleeplessness, anxiety, depression, hot flashes were alleviated by the same TCM and acupuncture, It took approximately 6 weeks but it worked. I now take 3 mg of melatonin every night to balance the hormones but I know that this is a placebo effect.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
28. Actually, the issue is that those who want to push anecdotes don't want to challenge their beliefs.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:07 PM
Feb 2012

You are twisting what an actual open mind is, and trying to tell others that a closed mind is an open mind.

That's just not going to help anyone move forward.

Dorian Gray

(13,479 posts)
22. A link
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 07:43 AM
Feb 2012
http://eccmpc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=335


It is supplied by an "Eastern Medicine" acupuncture support site, but it links to a myriad of studies which support acupuncture as a means for sustaining post IVF implanted eggs.

Many fertility doctors recommend that patients use Acupuncture as a supplement to their treatments.

Not required, but not unusual.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
25. you bring up reality
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:05 PM
Feb 2012

what is your scientific verifiable definition & understanding of reality? just so we're all on the same page..

KT2000

(20,567 posts)
10. Yes - I was just making
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:21 AM
Feb 2012

the point that the OP and/or the article should have complete and accurate understanding of TCM before using it as a straw man argument to denounce it and advocate another position.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
21. You mean the kind of "complete and accurate understanding"
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 07:06 AM
Feb 2012

that is reflected in statements to the effect of "I don't know how it works, I just know it works"?

 

saras

(6,670 posts)
16. When we take science back from corporations, you might have a point
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:39 AM
Feb 2012

For the last thirty years, at least, there has been pretty much no behavioral psychology research with the purpose of making people's lives better. It is funded by, and directed towards, manipulating people more effectively and at an earlier age for corporate profit. That's no more science than spreading kudzu through the lakes of the Midwest is farming.

A large part of the scientific method is applying the scientific method, not corporate control, to the issue of what questions should be asked and what research should be funded.

So, yes, I'd love to see more scientific method in Western medicine.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
17. What does this red herring have to do with anything?
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:01 AM
Feb 2012

Secondly, a great deal of neurological research is paid for by the NIMH as well as private foundations.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
32. That does not come close to answering the question.
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 04:20 PM
Feb 2012

Comparing science with its checks and balances to something that is simply made up out of thin air is quite odd, btw.

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
33. If I am unwell...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 03:02 AM
Feb 2012

I do not care if I'm simply an anecdote. I don't care if a cure is a 'placebo'. I do not give one POS if it can't be measured by "the scientific method". Science has never been thoroughly studied scientifically.

Would you deny another health because they can't PROVE their health has recovered? That's just mean.

Question: Do all discussions of the Scientific Method necessarily include a companion discussion of Philosophy?

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
34. I hate to break it to you...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:48 AM
Feb 2012

but it isn't all about you. Science-based medicine is about finding treatments that work for everyone.

If a treatment doesn't perform better than no treatment at all, then it's dishonest to sell it. You may not care if you're simply an anecdote, but do you care if you're paying for something that doesn't actually cure you?

If your answer is yes, I have a bridge to sell you.

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
35. silly
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:36 PM
Feb 2012

when I talk of "I", it is reference to the microcosm. It extrapolates to the macrocosm.

Of course no one wants to pay for something that doesn't work. But it happens millions of times every day in MD's offices and hospitals! You think every 'modern medical' treatment works!? HAHAHHAAA And I betcha you think you really DO have a bridge?!

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
37. If the evidence is clear that something does not work, then why would you allow people to lie?
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 07:11 PM
Feb 2012

In order to make money? Isn't that the definition of scam!?

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