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De Leonist

(225 posts)
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 10:39 PM Dec 2013

Why is talking about stigma never okay?

I realize I'm harping on about this again but here is what I don't get. Why is it never okay to talk about Stigma? I know we can talk about it here and everything but to actually mention in real life it's as if it's taboo. The reason why this bothers me so much is that plenty of other marginalized groups actually have recognition of their struggles amongst the population to some extent or another. But we can't talk about it. We can't mention it. Yes in some limited capacity we can talk about it in little clubs at say a university or maybe in a real life support group. But as a whole our voices are generally left out of the public discourse. Granted unlike many other marginalized groups we are not a "culture" or "class" that shares common identity or common experiences outside of our experiences with our diagnosis and ever present stigma but we are still a demographic of people that are one of the most easily victimized. But even still we can't say anything. We can't get mad about it. We can't get sad about it. If we do more than make a meek, polite mention of it than we're just "off our meds" or "being bipolar" or something similar.

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Why is talking about stigma never okay? (Original Post) De Leonist Dec 2013 OP
I remember meeting the daughter of a friend postatomic Dec 2013 #1
But, I think you can talk about it "here" as in this group and as on DU HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #2
I understand and empathise De Leonist. But there's also a hidden danger in thinking this way... Locut0s Dec 2013 #3
Some of what you wrote I quite disagree with HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #4
I think you misunderstood my point. Locut0s Dec 2013 #5
No. I think it's mostly the same argument HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #6
I think what caught me was where you said... Locut0s Dec 2013 #7
Perhaps I took it wrong... HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #8
Maybe :P No problem though nt. Locut0s Dec 2013 #9

postatomic

(1,771 posts)
1. I remember meeting the daughter of a friend
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 10:46 PM
Dec 2013

a couple years after my journey into darkness and death. Out of the corner of my eye I could see her staring at me rather oddly. She probably was just concerned but I "saw" something else.

I think we read into things. I've gotten to the point where I really don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about me. I can count on one hand how many people I feel comfortable talking with and still have 4 fingers left.

There will always be a prevailing stigma. It sucks.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
2. But, I think you can talk about it "here" as in this group and as on DU
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 11:48 PM
Dec 2013

I don't know if you have a DU incarnation prior to your current username, you may be aware that posts about this have been made.

The issue in this group is to share your experiences around mental illness, and it has been discussed in this forum in relation to individual group participants difficulties with it and --prior to the creation of the Mental Health Information group--about the national trend to target the mentally ill as the major problem with gun violence.

It seems to me that dealing with the problems associated with learning to cope with the stigma (note cope doesn't mean accept) that impacts you directly or which you simply fear would be fine within this group.

Information sharing and discussion of published articles/books on stigma is certainly a topic that could be discussed in MHIG. MHIG is broadly open to information sharing.

People who are around mental illness are well aware of stigma. We can and do get mad about it. As I wrote before, being sad, angry, and frustrated are all reasonable responses to being hit with it. But behavior that is indicative of anger, particularly what looks like a loss of temper, or is highly emoitional is problematic when confronting people who are bigoted about the mentally ill. Emotionality and anger is what they look for as evidence that the mentally ill are "crazy".

It's quite challenging to know enough about the costs of stigma to have an informed position to garner respect while maintaining a deliberate coolness that doesn't arouse anger (people hate to be called, or even linked to the bigotry in their word choice) in yourself or others.

There are many groups outside DU that are working to stop/end the stigma. The advocacy and activity you want might be found in one of them.

If you can, do a bit of poking around the internet and find groups such as this:

The Cynthia Breen Advocacy Foundation [CBAF] is dedicated to eliminating barriers for those affected by mental illness and broadening opportunities that enable them to lead full, active and independent lives; we advocate strong, consistent and individualized programs to support and manage their mental health conditions in an efficient, measurable and proactive system that values each person’s progress toward self-reliance and stability in housing, income, health care access & long-term engagement with a single entity and providers who know and understand their needs.

CBAF is committed to eliminating the stigmas surrounding mental illness as part of our mission.

We achieve these goals through non-partisan advocacy, sponsorship of initiatives, and engaging in multiple-path informational activities to increase public awareness of mental illness,eliminating stigmas about the mentally ill and providing a powerful voice for those affected by mental health problems so they no longer are left to suffer alone or in shame.

They seem to like this poster:

?w=320








Locut0s

(6,154 posts)
3. I understand and empathise De Leonist. But there's also a hidden danger in thinking this way...
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 03:31 AM
Dec 2013

I could not agree more that the mentally ill are stigmatized, shunned, hated, feared and treated like shit. And I agree it's disgusting and must stop. We have it bad enough as it is suffering with our illnesses without having to deal with being ostracised by the world. We shouldn't have to worry about getting strange and fearful looks, losing friends, and even losing our jobs over commiserating with others about our problems.

However there is a hidden danger in putting too much energy into thinking of this as an us vs them problem. Unlike other marginalized groups, blacks and the LGBT community, that we sometimes compare ourselves too, it's not totally correct to say "there is nothing wrong with me, I'm perfectly ok". Looking at it from this point of view one risks taking our diagnosis and permanently stamping ourselves with it. You risk going from being a person suffering from depression to being "one of the depressed". One leaves room for hope, change, light at the end of the tunnel, the other is a permanent label. Indeed there is nothing wrong with being depressed any more than being black and one should not be discriminated against any more than the other. But there's no doubt that depression is an illness, or state of mind, we should want to be desperately free of, not so for "blackness" or "queerness". Instead of it being too much "us vs them" we should see this much more as an "us vs us" fight. After all that is truly where our energies are best focused, getting out of the hell holes we have found ourselves in.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
4. Some of what you wrote I quite disagree with
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:56 PM
Dec 2013

What I agree with...is from the perspective of dealing with anxiety about being discriminated against that is something we who are, or who are intimate with the mentally ill must cope. The anxiety, anger, despair, and frustration over stigma and discrimination have to be managed at a level that doesn't add another layer of dysfunction to you, me, other mentally ill folk, and the persons in our lives.

That's very very true. Anyone who has been around the Mental Health Support group for several years has seen anxiety and fear about stigma be a burden and it's obvious that it can be a font of dysfunction.

But, I must disagree with the second part of your post, the concept that we have something wrong with us and thereby can't seek freedom from discrimination in a way similar to blacks or the LGBT.

One of the ways you can test the ethics of a particular idea is to move it to other similar circumstance to see if it remains true. When I do that with your argument and apply it to persons with physical disabilities rather then mental illness, it looks just like a rather hollow argument against the Americans with Disabilities Act. The physically disabled have things "wrong" with them, and yet American society generally sees that discrimination against them is harmful...and a majority of Americans agree that reasonably assisting them to their highest level of function is desirable for the disabled and for society.

The argument "we are flawed and don't want to be what we are anyway, so don't have similar need to be free of unfair discrimination as other minorities" is imo flawed, and is also too narrow in consideration.

The movement to end discrimination against the mentally ill isn't, and never has been, pushed by only the mentally ill.

Locut0s

(6,154 posts)
5. I think you misunderstood my point.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 06:32 PM
Dec 2013

I would never argue even for a second that we can't seek freedom from discrimination because we have issues. I feel extremely strongly that we SHOULD seek freedom from such discrimination. Where the danger lies to me is in identifying too closely with groups in which there is absolutely nothing wrong or where ther is no hope of recovery. I don't agree entirely with your comparison to the disabled because many of the disabled are permanently disabled, people with quadriplegia or down syndrome have little hope in the short term of getting better. The danger to me is in identifying so closely with these groups that you get into the mentality that your own label is permanent. Certainly we should fight with all our might not to be discriminated against for suffering from depression. But there is a danger in falling into the trap of thinking I'm now permanently depressed, there is no hope.

Is it clearer what my point is now or does it sound like I'm saying the same thing?

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
6. No. I think it's mostly the same argument
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 08:53 PM
Dec 2013

I agree that self-image is an issue at the personal level. I think that personal problems arising from association of self with stigma is a level where your argument is correct. I don't think permanence of a mental illness really has anything to do with that at all.

Moreover I think your idea that mental illnesses all go away is mistaken. Some mental illnesses appear to incurable and potentially life long.

For example schozophrenia and bipolar disorder are incurable. Alcoholism is argued by AA to be incurable and at best in remission . Pedophelia and antisocial personality are argued by many professionals to be incurable especially for the latter when in adults. Which doesn't mean they can't be helped by treatment. But then physical disabilities may be permanent...but help by treatment.

Locut0s

(6,154 posts)
7. I think what caught me was where you said...
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:10 PM
Dec 2013

You claimed that I was saying.

"The argument "we are flawed and don't want to be what we are anyway, so don't have similar need to be free of unfair discrimination as other minorities" is imo flawed, and is also too narrow in consideration"

I said quite the opposite really. I never claimed that because we are ill we "don't have similar need to be free of unfair discrimination as other minorities". I feel quite strongly the opposite actually.

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