Concealed-carry system carries hefty price tag

[SecularMotion]

SPRINGFIELD -- As the state of Illinois continues to pile up unpaid bills, the agency responsible for creating Illinois’ first-ever process to issue concealed-carry permits estimates start-up costs will be $25 million.

The figure is based on the assumption that 300,000 people will apply for concealed-carry permits within the first year. Roughly 150,000 people applied for concealed-carry permits the first year after Wisconsin legalized concealed-carry in 2011, and Illinois has double the population, said Illinois State Police Lt. Darrin Clark.

“We don’t have the manpower or money right now. ... It’s really not going to be possible when we’re already facing a backlog of FOID cards,” Clark said.

A federal appellate court has ordered Illinois to enact legislation by June 8 that allows qualified people to carry concealed weapons.

http://www.dailyamericannews.com/article/20130304/NEWS/130309809

[Bay Boy]

1. $83.00 per person

I am sure the state will have fees for the application. Problem solved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Integrating schools faced the same argument in the 60s

Bureaucrats always cry poverty when facing court ordered mandates

[av8r1998]

3. I call BS

There isn't a state that I am aware of that doesn't charge a fee for issuance and renewal of pistol permits.
In CT, the cost is about 200 bucks for a new permit, plus all of the tax revenue generated by instructors who must certify the student.

The renewal is 70 bucks every 5 years.

PD should stop whining and stop denying rights.

[Remmah2]

4. Sounds like a bureaucracy problem caused by government.

Maybe these government workers need better training in order to do their job.

[jeepnstein]

5. We fund it off of fees here.

As long as the local Sheriff is able to manage a budget with reasonable accuracy it's really not a problem. They do concealed carry, CLEO sign offs on NFA paperwork, and stuff like that during specific office hours at my local Sheriff's Office. If you have problems with the office hours they've been known to take the time to meet with you as best they can. Just don't waste your time going unless you have EVERYTHING ready because they are quite strict about things like paperwork and certificates.

Now I'm sure that a state that wants to make it as difficult as possible could create some Byzantine system that costs a fortune to administer so this really isn't about the money at all. It's about the police not wanting to obey the law.

[ileus]

6. It didn't have to be this way.

They created the monster now get it done without whining.


I suppose it's a small price to pay for safety.

[kudzu22]

7. Nobody says they have to have a permitting system

Dear Illinois: FOID = Carry permit. No extra cost. See?

[jimmy the one]

8. states have rights too, not just gunnuts

av8tor:There isn't a state that I am aware of that doesn't charge a fee for issuance and renewal of pistol permits.. PD should stop whining and stop denying rights.

.. what rights? to carry concealed pistols? what happened to 'state's rights', eh?
States have always had the power to write in prohibitions against carrying concealed firearms into their constitutions, leaving it to discretion of legislators. Why does the illinois regional judicial have the power to override this?

1 -- Kentucky: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons. (enacted 1891).
2 -- Colorado: The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense...; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons. enacted 1876.
3 -- Louisiana: The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person. (enacted 1974).
1879: "A well regulated militia being necessary to .. This shall not prevent the passage of laws to punish those who carry weapons concealed." Art. 3
4 --Mississippi: The right of every citizen to keep and .. but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons. Art. III, § 12 (enacted 1890, art. 3, § 12).
5 -- Missouri: That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property... but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons. 1945.
1875: "That the right of ... but nothing herein contained is intended to justify the practice of wearing concealed weapons."
6-- Montana: The right of any person to keep or bear arms .. but nothing herein contained shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. 1889).
7 -- New Mexico: No law shall abridge the right of the citizen ... but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. 1971, added 1986).
1912: "The people have the right to bear arms for their security and defense, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons."
8 -- North Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary .. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.1971).
1875: Same as 1868, but added "Nothing herein contained shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the Legislature from enacting penal statutes against said practice."
9 -- Oklahoma: The right of a citizen to keep .. but nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from regulating the carrying of weapons.1907). http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm

[kudzu22]

10. States are not free to write laws that violate the US Constitution

Or we'd still have slavery in the south. Illinois has been told that they can ban concealed carry or open carry, but not both. Banning both violates the 2nd Amendment.

[Politicalboi]

27. I think slavery would be human rights

Gun rights should NEVER supersede that. So the south wouldn't still have slavery.

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. "states have rights"? Why are you channeling George Wallace at DU?

[beevul]

34. No. No state has rights. States have powers.

Powers are the opposite of rights.

[FamilyMan]

9. Democrat's fault

It's Chicago's fault for spending over $10,000 a day of tax payer's money trying to fight a Concealed Permit law which already works REALLY well for many other states. Money that could go to schools. Every state that has passed a Concealed Weapons Permit law has seen significant decreases in crime since it keeps criminals second guessing. They are spending a ton of money trying to water down the bill as much as possible, the courts already told Democrats they have to pass it or anyone with a FOID card can carry when the clock runs out in a few months. A CWP law would do wonders to clean up Chicago, once a few initial criminals get shot for their efforts word gets out among them quickly that they need to mind their Ps and Qs a bit more now that the citizens they are trying to rob might be carrying. In my personal experience most people that carry are better shooters than law enforcement officers since they shoot/practice much more often than police do.

There are almost twice as many Democratic gun owners now compared to Clinton's time, and we are all united like never before regardless of party affiliation. Obama is walking our party off the cliff...same way Clinton did.

[jimmy the one]

13. comedy hour, & siccw laws

kudzu: States are not free to write laws that violate the US Constitution.. Or we'd still have slavery in the south.

You trying to be a comedian?, slavery was justified in the CONSTITUTION.
The states that I listed above would not have violated the 2nd amendment, since then it was properly interpreted as conferring a militia based rkba.
There was hardly a whimper about those state's bans on carrying concealed firearms as violating the 2nd amendment, hardly a whimper back then. Nope, they thought it a good policy, prohibitions on carrying concealed. You only tapdance kudzu.

friendly_iconoclast-- "states have rights"? Why are you channeling George Wallace at DU?

Another comedian? uh, are you arguing that they don't? do you understand what a federal based system of govt entails? If you're indeed just trying to be funny, well, ok, hahahahaha, george wallace, hahaha.

FamilyMan -- Every state that has passed a Concealed Weapons Permit law has seen significant decreases in crime since it keeps criminals second guessing.

GONG. I'm getting tired of posting this, but family man apparently has been reading from the 2nd Amendment Mythology Bible:
1. Montana enabled shall issue ccw (siccw) 1991 & since then her violent crime rate has near tripled, while the nat avg violent crime rate has fallen dramatically. Which proves you wrong by itself. But, there's more....
2. West Virginia enabled siccw about 1989 & her violent crime rate has doubled.
3. Both dakotas enabled siccw prior to 1970 & both have seen violent crime rates at least double, & one of 'em's violent crime rate about quadrupled (still pretty low tho).
4. Pennsylvania enabled siccw in 1989 & for 20 years her violent crime rate remained above the 1989 start year, only falling in 2009 below but remaining at parity. Averaging the 22 years since siccw in pennsy would render her violent crime rate about 10 - 15% higher than the start year, all the while the nat avg was declining drastically.
5. Indiana's violent crime rate has tended up & down over the years, from it's start year.

St Louis city enabled siccw 2005 & next year had the highest violent crime rate in the country. Detroit enabled siccw 2002, fat lotta good it's done detroit & flint.. so put down your 2nd Amendment Mythology Bible, Family Man.

In my personal experience most people that carry are better shooters than law enforcement officers since they shoot/practice much more often than police do.

I said PUT DOWN THAT 2ndA mythology bible.

There are almost twice as many Democratic gun owners now compared to Clinton's time, and we are all united like never before regardless of party affiliation.

Yet personal gun ownership has declined since clinton's days as pres.

Obama is walking our party off the cliff...same way Clinton did.

At 28 posts, some of us in 'your party' aren't completely convinced, it's 'your party'.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. "At 28 posts, some of us in 'your party' aren't completely convinced, it's 'your party'."

Sayeth a poster with 440 posts...

[iiibbb]

19. he does post more words in one post than it takes some to achieve in 25

so

[jimmy the one]

20. not my family

iconoclast: {me to familyman} At 28 posts, some of us in 'your party' aren't completely convinced, it's 'your party'." {icon} Sayeth a poster with 440 posts...

If anyone thinks I'm a rightwing plant they need their head examined. And you tapdanced past answering my concern, do you think states have no rights? as per your reply?
However, let's read some of that very pro gun 'family man', where all his 29 posts are on gun forums:

family man: .. the courts already told Democrats they have to pass it or anyone with a FOID card can carry when the clock runs out in a few months.
There are almost twice as many Democratic gun owners now compared to Clinton's time, and we are all united like never before regardless of party affiliation. Obama is walking our party off the cliff...same way Clinton did.

family man, reciting rightwing mantra: Yes. Obama made the mistake of thinking that most gun owners are 'southerners' or 'Republicans'.... boy is he in for a rude awakening. FBI and DOJ stats all prove that Gun Control does not work and only helps criminals, since they never ever follow gun control laws. Criminals don't buy their rifles from a store or show that charges $1,200 per rifle and subject themselves to a background check and a recorded transaction. They buy from offshore arms dealers at ~$150 per rifle (seen it myself)...no law is going to stop that. The funniest thing is how the media tries to make it seem like they buy arms from gun shows that are all filled to the brim with off-duty and on-duty cops shopping around. I've been to many gun shows around the country and they are all legit and filled with older subtle folks...you won't see any baggy pants or cartel members at one like they would like you to believe.

{Would you support recall of pol's thread}: FBI and DOJ facts prove gun control doesn't work and only helps criminals. Facts are against the anti-gunners, that's why they have to unsuccessfully try to pull at heart-strings to try to push their ineffective propaganda.
6 Senators are up for re-election in deep southern states next year where Obama got significantly less than 50% of the vote, another few are up in states that have large gun owning populations, not to mention it's a mid-term elction where our party never does well. Our Democratic family is voting them all out...just like we did with Clinton...only this time there are over 40 million Democratic gun owners and we are united with Republicans on this issue.

I think saying 'our party' & 'our democrat family' is a bit equivocal. He's really making things up anyway. Reminds me a lot of va mtn man.

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. States only have the rights allotted to them by the US Constitution, as interpreted by...

...the Supreme Court. This hasn't changed since Marbury v. Madison IIRC. If you don't
like that- too bad.

I'm not willing to concede anything to you lot on that, as your approach to 'states rights' differs not
a whit from the segregationists like George Wallace and abortion opponents.

[PuffedMica]

12. There is a way around the monetary expenditures

Illinois could implement the solution used by other states.
Alaska
Arizona
Vermont
Wyoming

[Clames]

14. Probably would have been a lot less expensive if they hadn't waited so long.

n/t

[iiibbb]

15. No excuse given the thumb they've had on gun owners all these years.

Being unprepared and recalcitrant has its costs... suck it.

Backlog of FOID cards... color me unsympathetic.

[DonP]

16. Backlog of FOID cards = all new gun buyers

The latest gun control meme is that all those guns are being sold to people with already massive "arsenals".

In Illinois you can't touch, let alone buy or shoot a gun without a FOID card. So the almost 200,000 new FOID cards in the past 6 months are all new gun buyers. And the Illinois State Police unit that handles FOID cards, is falling further behind every month. Funny how that could happen if all those gun sales are for existing gun owners?

The last time they fell behind, was when Blago cut the staff on purpose. Then the court stepped in and told him they had to staff to meet the 6 week time limit on issuance of new cards.

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. Good point, and one that will be avoided like a tanning bed by a vampire...

...by the gun Prohibitionists.

[jimmy the one]

21. rude awakening

iconoclast: Sayeth a poster with 440 posts...
iiibbb: .. he does post more words in one post than it takes some to achieve in 25

Oh look at the two tweety birds, sitting side by side on the bird cage perch. Tweet tweet, tweet tweet.... keep at it & you'll get upgraded to a cookoo clock.
No, I don't care to tweet, rarely have, tweeting is for kids. Who really cares about a brief mindthought about what just popped into your heads? If I'm gonna come here it's usually gonna be to develop a concept or idea, or refute lies & half truths, not just to make a silly tweet.

family man, reciting rightwing mantra: Obama made the mistake of thinking that most gun owners are 'southerners' or 'Republicans'... boy is he in for a rude awakening.

Uh, better sit down, family man, most gun owning households are indeed republican, at least by this chart, & when you include republican leaning independents, it's more severe than 51%:

.. gap between the political parties has grown significantly since he early 1990s, as fewer and fewer Democrat and Independent households own guns:

How was your 'rude awakening', family man?

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Or fewer are REPORTING as such.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who would NEVER answer that question honestly. For a variety of reasons.

And incidentally, until that blue line reaches zero, don't be surprised that 'gungeonites' exist on DU. That's US. Right there.

[jimmy the one]

23. what's an atheists favorite time of day?

athcrusader: Or fewer are REPORTING as such. I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who would NEVER answer that question honestly. For a variety of reasons.

Less than one percent I'd reckon, not that much; a far lesser percentage would actually answer in the affirmative that they owned a gun when they didn't.

And incidentally, until that blue line reaches zero, don't be surprised that 'gungeonites' exist on DU. That's US. Right there.

.. don't mess with my mind, it took me two months before I realized what 'gungeon' meant, I first thought it was banishment for posting offenses, to a DU 'dungeon/donjon'. So I guess a gungeonite is anyone who posts here? or just gunn... er, g-enthusiasts?

And you might wanna sit down too, AC, but at least it's bad news & good news.
Households with guns (2008 exit poll, not the same graph as prior post):
Religion............. All voters ... dems .... repubs
protestant ............... 54 ...... 44 ......... 60
evangelic christian..... 50 ...... 39 ......... 61
catholic ................... 39 ...... 33 ......... 51
no religion ............... 32 ...... 21 ......... 58
http://www.classwarfareexists.com/nate-silver-gun-ownership-rates-are-inversely-correlated-with-educational-attainment/(also a list by 'religious attendance', click on link)

.. that's the bad news fer ya, I guess atheists don't believe in gun gods neither.
.. atheists only about 1 in 3 households have a gun, the good news is that the more education you have the less likely you are to own a gun, which means atheists in general tend more educated.. nothing personal you understand? you're obviously educated. Funny tho, republican atheists twice as likely to own guns as dem atheists.

education: .............. all voters ... dems ..... repubs
high school or less ........ 41 ........... 33 ......... 59
some college ............... 43 ........... 30 ......... 59
college grad ............... 33 ........... 22 ......... 48
postgrad study ............. 32 ........... 22 ......... 48

Hey heard this one? what's an atheists favorite time of day?
.. the ungodly hour of 3am in the morning..... (I think I told it before).

[AtheistCrusader]

24. I don't invest metaphysical attributes to a firearm.

It is a tool, for launching a projectile in a particular direction. That is all. It isn't a god. It isn't a 'power'. It isn't anything that can't be measured and examined plainly in three dimensions, with our very hands.

Investing in it 'gun gods' is a reflection of the person using the term, not the tool, and an invention on the part of that speaker, in qualities that do not exist.

Gungeonite typically refers to the pro-gun posters in the Gun forum here, that primarily or exclusively post in that forum. (You can see from my statistics, it is my most common forum to post in, but by no means exclusive.)


"Less than one percent I'd reckon, not that much; a far lesser percentage would actually answer in the affirmative that they owned a gun when they didn't."

I agree with you on the false positives, very little incentive in doing so. However, the false negatives.. The entire opposition to universal registration (Which I support) is predicated upon the 'security through obscurity' principle. They don't want the government to know they have guns at all, let alone how many and where they are kept. They have a strong disincentive to risk disclosing that info to any source. Anecdotal, but, of all the gun owners I know, half do not answer that sort of question truthfully when posed from any source, and of them, half again do not belong to any official gun ranges, as that could be used to infer they have some guns at least. So they use gravel pits and other forest service owned locations for target practice.

I am not surprised that conservatives own guns at a higher rate, but keep in mind the conservative mindset is likely to preclude them answering that survey truthfully.

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. We are dealing with people that believe that firearms cast spells, or some such nonsense.

For example, the zombie poster Loudly, in their previous incarnation as sharesunited, would regularly
proclaim that guns compelled whatever crime that they were commenting on-kinda like the doll in this:

[spin]

25. Interesting chart which makes me wonder ...

how many one time Democrats who were gun owners decided to change their party affiliation to the Republican Party due to our push for gun control and laws such as the assault weapons ban.

Often when I have discussed politics at the gun range I have found that many shooters agree with me on most issues that the Democratic Party supports but then tell me that they would never vote for a Democrat. They tell me that, "Democrats want to ban and confiscate our firearms."

The word "ban" seems to scare and anger most gun owners. To many it conjurers up images of "jack booted thugs" breaking doors down and tearing homes apart to find hidden firearms.

Perhaps we should ban the use of the word "ban." It is a nice catchy phrase and the gun control movement is good at inventing catchy phrases such as "Cop Killer Bullets", "Saturday Night Specials", "Plastic Gun" etc. Still the first Assault Weapons "Ban" never really was a ban as weapons such as the AR-15 were always available to civilians during the period of time the ban was in effect. They just couldn't be sold with a combination of certain cosmetic features.

Most gun owners that I have talked to do support legislation to help stop the sale of firearms to criminals and those with severe mental issues. If Democrats used a term such as "better regulate" and also supported better enforcement of existing laws, our nation might make some real headway in addressing the level of gun violence in our nation.

I feel if we stopped trying to "ban" weapons over a period of time many gun owners who were once Democrats would return to our party. The Democratic Party would then show an increase in gun ownership but also an increase in members.

[DonP]

28. Before the "ban" denialism starts again ...

Check out the new thread from our resident "Cut and Paste" artiste with plenty of posters applauding LA for deciding to authorize the forced confiscation of any and all privately owned 30 round magazines as a "public nuisance".

I'm sure a little door kicking wouldn't bother them a bit. After all it's for a good cause and that 4th and 5th amendment is as obsolete as that 2nd one is anyway, right?

No, nobody wants to ban guns or magazines.

[spin]

29. I wonder if the LA police will confiscate hi-cap magazines form the homes ...

of honest citizens and then brag about how many they have removed from the street.

I also wonder if an honest citizen will be fined or imprisoned for owning a hi-cap magazine when a felon with a long and violent criminal record will only receive a slap on the wrist when he is caught carrying an illegal firearm in public.

I guess it is a lot easier, cheaper and less dangerous to pass laws that punish honest and responsible gun owners than actually focus on the real problem gun owners who are violent criminals and those with severe mental issues. A politician can push "feel good" laws and convince his constituency that he is doing everything that he can to address gun violence in our nation. Sadly such "feel good" laws accomplish little or nothing except to help certain politicians get reelected.

[Politicalboi]

26. Then keep stalling it

Or let the NRA flip the bill for such nonsense.

"qualified people to carry concealed weapons". How is this "qualification" done? No mental problems, never had a record, never shot your gun, QUALIFIED!

[DonP]

30. Chicago has already written checks to the NRA for several million $ in legal fees

All signed by Rahm. That doesn't even include the checks they had to write to the Second Amendment Foundation and his own legal bills either.

If they follow your sage advice and "keep stalling it" they can run that up a few more million and be far and away the biggest NRA contributor of the decade. I'm sure that would make you proud.

You are a Chicago and Illinois taxpayer, right?

I mean ... otherwise why would you try to provoke them into pissing away more millions of $ they can't afford in futile legal gestures when they can't give the police or fire fighter unions a contract?

Or ... they could stop acting like George Wallace, who didn't like another court decision, and abide by the law.

No more stalling, the court gave them 180 days and refused an en banc hearing. As of June 9th, if they don't have a law that passes constitutional muster, Illinois joins Vermont, Wyoming, Alaska and Arizona. No permit or training needed for open or concealed carry.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. I'm guessing that the Vermont method is cheaper.