Officer suspended after gun discharged in school

[jpak]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/07/guns-school-officer-shoots/1970017/

HIGHLAND, N.Y. — A police officer has been suspended without pay as officials investigate an incident at a high school here in which his gun fired.

Sean McCutcheon, an officer in the Lloyd, N.Y., police department and a school resource officer for Highland Central School District, accidentally discharged his gun at 1:38 p.m. Tuesday in the hallway of Highland High School here, the school district and police said.

STORY: Armed-officer program put on hold

STORY: Teachers not gung-ho about guns

No information has been released on why the gun went off, and the department's investigation is continuing, Lt. James Janso said.

<more>

And the gun nuts want more guns in school.

Dumb

yup

[spin]

1. Police usually carry modern handguns in high quality holsters. ...

They also have firearm safety training.

It would be interesting to know what led up to this accidental discharge. I suspect the officer was handling the weapon in some manner.

No one was injured and no students or staff were nearby when the gun went off, according to a statement from the district.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/07/guns-school-officer-shoots/1970017/

A modern handgun in a quality holster is safe but not fool proof.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. But what about high-quality officers to go with those

high-quality handguns and holsters?

[spin]

5. At the police pistol range that I used to shoot at as a civilian ...

A police firearms instructor had two accidental discharges in the lobby while loading or unloading his Glock pistol.

The first time he shot a soft drink machine and almost killed it. His second AD killed a TV set. After his second accident he lost his position as a police firearms instructor. About six months later, another officer shot the carpet on the floor but fortunately the wound was superficial.

No humans were injured in these accidents but some egos suffered.

To the best of my knowledge no civilians who used the range ever had a accidental discharge in the lobby.

I should also point out that there was a firearm unloading station in the lobby, Had this device been used, these accidents would not have happened.

[lumpy]

32. Love your distinctive post.

n

[spin]

41. Thanks for your support. (n/t)

[kudzu22]

3. You disarm all the cops and criminals

and I'll think about giving mine up.

[Shadowflash]

4. guns in schools

What can possibly go wrong?

[razee]

6. guns not in schools

What can possibly go wrong?

[rdharma]

7. "guns not in schools"

Same as with guns in schools......... except without the additional possibility of an accidental discharge or other disaster involving the "good guy's" weapon.

[sylvi]

8. And how many times has that happened?

There are around 17,000 School Resource Officers in the U.S. How many SROs have killed or injured innocent students with their firearms? How many students have been murdered in schools that are "gun free zones" without an SRO?

[rdharma]

10. "murdered in schools that are "gun free zones" without an SRO?"

How many students have been "saved" by armed SRO's in schools?

Columbine had an armed SRO on campus.

[sylvi]

13. Columbine's SRO was not in the building when the shooting started.

He was in his patrol car on the periphery of the school property. Still, he was able to engage the shooters within five minutes of the start of the attack which distracted them long enough for at least one of the injured students to escape.

As far as, "How many students have been "saved" by armed SRO's in schools?", that would be difficult if not impossible to quantify, since by definition you can't count something that "didn't happen". It's like asking how many times was a bank "not robbed" because it had an armed security guard.

The point is whether or not armed SROs are dangerous to students simply by virtue of them being there with a gun. Other than the single anecdote in the OP, which by the way did not involve any injury to students, I'm not aware of any record showing they increase risk to students, while the record is replete with students being shot or otherwise assaulted in "gun free zones" where there is no officer immediately available to help.

[rdharma]

14. SRO was in the parking lot.

It wouldn't have made any difference if he was in the building. In fact, if he had been in the building, he would not have been aware that there were active shooters on the campus when the shooting began.

I'm not against armed SROs in schools. But thinking that they can provide some sort of effective protection from armed intruders bent on mayhem......... is wishful thinking.

The point I wanted to make is that "more guns" (even in the hands of well trained "good guys&quot is not the answer.

And the idea of arming teachers....... is just nugging FUTZ!

[gejohnston]

17. I have noticed

that security experts, firearms instructors, and police forces are providing training and support for armed school personnel. I have not seen anyone from these fields on any TV chat show opposing the idea nor pointing out any flaws. The only opposition I see are politicians and pundits, including an arrogant and stupid disgraced newspaper editor, with questionable and invalid arguments.
While armed teachers might suck, there isn't a valid argument against it. Like concealed carry on campus, the opponents can't come up with a valid argument against it.

[jmg257]

18. Other then guns going off 'accidentally', you mean?

As this incident, by a veteran police officer, shows so glaringly.

Not an important enough reason I guess.

[gejohnston]

36. a very rare event

how many school bus crashes before the kids go back to walking?

[jmg257]

39. Do ou think the event will remain as rare if carrying in school becomes

More prominent? 2 accidental discharges already related to this...programs only started a couple months ago.

[gejohnston]

46. school SROs have been around forever

my kids have always had armed cops in schools. Nation wide, the program has been in existence for at least 20 years in some places. That is two out of how many? Notice these negligent discharges are "highly trained" cops? I think PDs need better training programs.

[Eleanors38]

58. How many of these incidents have there been?

[jmg257]

62. Addressed this already. nt

[Eleanors38]

63. Confirming: 1 incident. Thanx. nt

[jmg257]

64. 2nd atleast that I am aware of, in programs started this year (its only March). nt

"Instructor shot during public school handgun training safety class in Texas
Back in January, the Van Independent School District school board authorized "certain school employees and other persons" to carry authorized firearms on school property. "


"Officer suspended after gun discharged in school
The district's school resource officer program, begun in wake of the school shootings in Newtown, Conn., is on hold while the investigation is being conducted."

ETA:
A veteran cop and an instructor...yup...safety training indeed.

You're welcome.

[jmg257]

65. Here's another...campus shooting, though not directly related to armed staff/SRO...

MANCHESTER, Conn. (AP) — The campus of Manchester Community College was locked down for several hours Wednesday after a student reported seeing a man with what she believed to be a gun in his waistband, and one of the officers involved in the response was injured in an accidental shooting....
The wounded officer’s foot was struck when a weapon accidentally discharged, police said. He was taken by police cruiser to Hartford Hospital. His name and condition weren’t released.

You should check out this site...very interesting the number of accidemts that occur.

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

Plenty of cops involved in these accidents.

[sarisataka]

70. "Plenty of cops involved in these accidents."

how does that reflect on the claim "only the police and military should be armed"?

I notice quite a few of these accidental shooting also involve a fight or dispute. It makes one wonder how 'accidental' the shooting was. Are claims being made that it was accidental to avoid charges of assault with a deadly weapon?

ADs by civilian CCWs are noticeably minimal...

[jmg257]

71. Not sure - I don't make that claim so I haven't thought about it much.

Definitely know that cops are nothing special when it comes to being overly accurate, safe, or bright. Atleast the military usually have to check their arms at the end of their tours/shifts.

I would bet you are right about claimed accidents being otherwise...it's amazing how many of those who have negligent or even intentional discharges had 'equipment issues'.

[jmg257]

66. Here's another from Nov..campus staff with CCP, not directly related to armed staff...sort of.

Accidental shooting at University of Colorado dental school
A spokesman for the {Colorado} university says the owner of the gun is a CU employee and is currently on administrative leave.

The injuries did not require hospitalization. 9NEWS received two newstips about the incident on Monday, one of which identified the person who owned the gun as a female staff member.

University spokesman Dan Meyers says campus police are investigating the incident, and that the gun's owner had a concealed carry permit for it.

The University of Colorado for many years enforced a ban on all weapons on its campuses, but in March 2012 the Colorado Supreme Court struck down the university's gun ban, which means visitors and staff members with a valid concealed carry permit are allowed to have guns on campus.

[Eleanors38]

68. Confirming: 3. There must be a link summing all this up. Have it?

[jmg257]

69. Not specifcally....out of the 4, 1st 2 were stories originally posted here, there's 1 from the link

I added, and 1 from CU found via a Google.

[jmg257]

76. Forgot this one...gun in school bathroom...is that 4 or 5?

"School security guard in Michigan leaves gun in bathroom, officials say

Officials say a recently hired security officer left a firearm unattended in a Michigan charter school bathroom, local media reported. In a Jan. 7 newsletter, the school told families it had hired the school security officer, a veteran of the Lapeer County Sheriff Department {and firearms instructor} who had retired."

[gejohnston]

77. Sounds like Oregon State Police

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/02/call_it_lavatory_larceny_--_bu.html

[jmg257]

78. Sheesh...nice. What a dumbass. I saw a cop leave a glock on a urinal in

Vegas once, but he came right back in for it. This detective lost hers...Not good.

[Eleanors38]

81. HUGE numbers. Get back with a yearly total.

[rdharma]

21. "security experts, firearms instructors, and police forces support armed school personnel"

Brings in the $ ...... and politically popular. So was the invasion of Iraq.

Wise idea? Nope!

[gejohnston]

37. are providing support

how are police forces making money off it? How about instructors working for the police? You are still left with a disgraced newspaper editor (who got fired for printing faked photos) turned ex pat TV pundit ranting and name calling.

[rdharma]

56. "how are police forces making money off it?"

If we provide blank # of full time SROs to District # school system, we'll need to raise taxes. $$$$$$$

I don't know what you are talking about with the "disgraced newspaper editor" thing.

[gejohnston]

59. you didn't click on the link?

Morgan was editor of the Mirror in the UK until he got fired. The paper published photos of British solders torturing Iraqis. The problem was that the story was a hoax and pics were fake.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3716151.stm

[rdharma]

60. "Mirror"

[HockeyMom]

27. Do other staff have the right to refuse to work in a class

with armed teachers? I wouldn't as a special needs TA. Hell, I don't like living in an armed household either.

[gejohnston]

42. proper operation security would dictate

the who and how many would be unknown to all but the "toters" themselves and the principal. The one rural school district that I think does it right, does just that. They also have a couple of layers of physical security.

I never said I support it, I only said the only arguments against it come from the likes of Piers Morgan who's sense of logic is somewhere between kindergarten and sandbox.

[HockeyMom]

49. So the rest of the staff has no right to know?

If that was how the school operated, I would elect not to work there. Non-gun owners have no rights??? Trained, armed LEO are one thing, but a armed teacher HIDING a gun with other staff not knowing? I wouldn't work in a school like that. Don't you think a TA in that classroom has a RIGHT to know if there is a gun in the classroom? What if a child accidentally found that gun? SURPRISE?

[gejohnston]

53. who said anything about untrained? Or even teachers?

This is how I would do it, if I were to do it. It is based on how the Air Force does some ground defensive roles.
First, I would make the physical security top priority. I would have a single entry control point that would be solid door that would allow visitors to be buzzed in if they provide valid reason for going to the office. Of course hall way CCT cameras. Classroom doors would be lockable from the inside, very little glass window if any.

The staff would know that some are carrying. Those individuals would be volunteers selected by administration and the SRO, Those individuals would receive the required training from the SRO and a certified instructor. During such an emergency, those individuals would work for the SRO until the emergency is over. Some may be teachers, custodians, admin. Whatever.
The gun would be concealed on the person so it won't be hidden. As much as possible I would pick jobs that don't interact with the kids very much.
Any employee would know that is the case up front. As long as the kids are inside of the building, they would be school's responsibility. That would become before anyone's phobias or some parent wanting to bring their CCW in my building (My house, I don't know you, leave in the car.)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

50. Morgan's logic...

...belongs in the litter box with all the other cat crap.

[Clames]

38. Columbine's SRO saved several students.

Thus, five minutes after the shooting started, and two minutes after the first radio call, Gardner was engaged in a gun fight with the student shooters. There were already two dead and ten wounded. Harris fired ten shots and Gardner fired four, before Harris ducked back into the building. No one was hit. Gardner reported on his police radio, "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."[23] The gunfight distracted Harris and Klebold from the injured Brian Anderson.[4] Anderson escaped to the library and hid inside an open staff break room.

The SRO's continued exchanges with the shooters distracted them enough so that several others were able to escape.



If it saves just one life...

[rdharma]

57. "saved several students"

BS!

[Clames]

67. You just adore your ignorance.

And hate facts...

[razee]

9. No possibility of a good guy with a weapon

opens the door to any nut case walking in and inflecting mass casualties with impunity. I have no idea on the odds of an accidental discharge harming someone. Personally I would rather take my chances to be in a facility where at least their is a possibility of stopping the nut case.

[rdharma]

12. "opens the door to any nut case walking in and inflecting mass casualties"

Like at Columbine HS?

[razee]

15. I would choose having a chance of ending a masacre

You choose no chance.

A product you may be interested in

[rdharma]

16. "You choose no chance."

No. I choose "effective solutions" over "feel good" theater.

[razee]

20. As long as these areas are advertised as gun/protection free

they will be attractive to every nut case looking to do harm. The batman POS bypassed several other theaters that were closer and specifically went to the gun free zone.

[rdharma]

22. "specifically went to the gun free zone"

RIIIIIIGHT!

[razee]

24. So why did the killer pick the Cinemark theater?

You might think that it was the one closest to the killer’s apartment. Or, that it was the one with the largest audience.

Yet, neither explanation is right. Instead, out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/10/did-colorado-shooter-single-out-cinemark-theater/

[rdharma]

25. Why?

Occupancy........ among other things.

THat it was a so-called "gun free" zone........ not a factor.

[razee]

28. "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," no he didn't pick that one

According to mapquest.com and movies.com, there were seven movie theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20th within 20 minutes of the killer’s apartment at 1690 Paris Street, Aurora, Colorado. At four miles and an eight minute car ride, the Cinemark’s Century Theater wasn't the closest.2 Another theater, Aurora Plaza 8 Cinemas/Cinema Latino de Aurora, was only 1.2 miles (three minutes) away.3

There was also the Harkins Northfield 18, which was just slightly further away 5.1 miles (10 minutes). It billed itself as the "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," according to their movie hotline greeting message. The potentially huge audience ought to have been attractive to someone trying to kill as many people as possible. Four other theaters, Aurora Movie Tavern, The Movie Tavern at Seven Hills, Landmark Theatre Greenwood Village, and UA Colorado Center Stadium 9 and IMAX, were 10 miles (18 minutes), 10 miles (19 minutes), 13 miles (19 minutes), and 9.7 miles (20 minutes) away.
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/ACSJShootersDecideWhere0912.html

[rdharma]

30. Ability to prop the door open without alarm sounding?

For access?

No........It wasn't the "gun-free" zone crap. Keep diggin'!

[razee]

34. Please site your source that was the reason

your just making things up as you go along. Maybe he liked the color of the carpet. Yeah picking a place where nobody would shoot back at him couldn't possibly be the reason.

[jmg257]

43. A source like yours??

From your link:

"Did Colorado shooter single out Cinemark theater because it banned guns?
By John Lott

Published September 10, 2012
FoxNews.com"

"John R Lott writes frequently for Fox News...author of several books...More Gun Less Crime and At the Brink..."

At the Brink: Will Obama Push Us Over the Edge..."Barack Obama has taken America to the brink of financial ruin. Will we be able to stop before we go over the edge? Author John Lott sounds the alarm..."



Fox News and John Lott, huh?

Uh huh. With sources like yours, who needs enemas.

[razee]

44. Please state where you see error and site your source

[jmg257]

45. I did post the error I saw...your link to Fox News and John Lott...

We are on DU don't ya know, not FR or the NRA network.

[razee]

47. The link to faux contained some information I was searching for and it happeneg to come up first

If you see a specific error in the information please correct it.

[jmg257]

51. Uh huh...And John Lott is just a RW NRA dupe you happened to quote

To make a point in favor of guns, even though he is extremely biased for them, as well as extremely biased against our president.

Great sources. Useless in gun discussions, and ignored on DU because of the obvious, but very telling about you none the less.

Enjoy your stay here.

[JoeBlowToo]

52. John Lott is a discredited source and a right winger and should not be quoted on DU...

After Mass Shooting In Aurora, Lott Denied The Fact That America Has The Highest Rate Of Gun Deaths In The Civilized World. Appearing on CNN in the wake of the mass shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, CO, Lott rejected host Piers Morgan's assertion that "America has the worst incidents of gun murders of any of what they call the civilized world." Lott told Morgan that "factually, it's not true." In reality, a 2003 Harvard School of Public Health study revealed that the firearm homicide rate in the United States is 19.5 times higher than the average rate found in other high-income nations. [CNN, Piers Morgan Tonight, 7/24/12, via Media Matters)

Lott Has Faced Convincing Allegations That He Fabricated Research On Defensive Gun Uses

Lott Became Subject Of Ethics Inquiry After Failing To Produce Evidence That He Actually Conducted A 1997 Survey. A January 17, 2003 letter written by Northwestern University Professor of Law James Lindgren, raised concerns that Lott fabricated a survey that found 98 percent of defensive gun uses involved only brandishing a weapon. Lott has failed to produce the data from the study, claiming to have lost it in a computer crash. From Lindgren's letter:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/12/17/who-is-gun-advocate-john-lott/191885

[jmg257]

19. You choose the notion that we have to have guns readily available,

as the best way to deal with massacres by people with ready access to guns. Any idea why that notion can lead to such massacres becoming even more common occurrences?

There are other ways to reduce the chances that bad guys armed with guns will massacre a bunch of people that don't involve good guys armed with guns.

[razee]

55. Advertising and promoting unprotected areas where guns are prohibited is a sure way

to invite trouble.

[jimmy the one]

61. John Lott --- Gunnut Writer for Hire

joeblow:John Lott is a discredited source and a right winger and should not be quoted on DU...

Shh, Joe, Lott might be posting on DU under a phony name, like he did on amazon to gin up sales for his books!
wiki: "Mary Rosh persona In response to the dispute surrounding the missing survey, Lott created and used "Mary Rosh" as a sock puppet to defend his own works on Usenet and elsewhere. After investigative work by blogger Julian Sanchez, Lott admitted to use of the Mary Rosh persona. Sanchez also pointed out that Lott, posing as Rosh, not only praised his own academic writing, but also called himself "the best professor I ever had".
Many commentators and academics accused Lott of violating academic integrity, noting that he praised himself while posing as one of his former students, and that "Rosh" was used to post a favorable review of More Guns, Less Crime on Amazon.com. Lott has claimed that the "Rosh" review was written by his son and wife. "I probably shouldn't have done it—I know I shouldn't have done it—but it's hard to think of any big advantage I got except to be able to comment fictitiously," Lott2003

John Lott wrote 'More Guns Less Crime', his high water mark on concealed carry affects:.. Gary Kleck, a criminologist whose work is often cited by John Lott and NRA, has dismissed Lott's conclusions. Kleck wrote in his book, Targeting Guns, that "more likely the declines in crime coinciding with relaxation of carry laws were largely attributable to other factors not controlled for in the Lott Mustard analysis."http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hunt/gundebate.htm

as well: .. 2004, National Academy of Sciences conducted a review of current research and data on firearms and violent crime, including Lott's work, and found "no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases or increases violent crime.

Charges that gun makers or the NRA have paid for Lott's research In 1996 when Lott's research first received media attention, Charles Schumer wrote in {WSJ}: "..{AP} reports that Prof. Lott's fellowship at the Univ of Chicago is funded by the Olin Foundation, which is 'associated with the Olin Corporation {linked with Winchester Ammo too},' one of the nation's largest gun manufacturers. Maybe that's a coincidence, too. But it's also a fact."
Like all candidates, Lott was selected to receive his Olin Fellowship by the faculty of the university, not by Olin Foundation and certainly not by Olin Corp. <<< this was lott's flimsy escape hatch - it was rightwing pro gun funding.

In a debate on Piers Morgan July 2012, Harvard Law Prof Alan Dershowitz claimed: "This is junk science at its worst. Paid for and financed by the National Rifle Association." Lott countered: "The NRA hasn't paid for my research." Dershowitz continued: "Your conclusions are paid for and financed -- The {NRA} -- only funds research that will lead to these conclusions." Dershowitz provided no evidence for his claim. Dersh shoulda just said 'gun lobby' since nra isn't so stupid to explicitly fund that.

[spin]

11. Plenty, but coupled with better physical security ...

some tragic mass murders might be stopped or the shooters may decide to pick an easier target.

Some feel that the solution is to ban certain weapons and limit the size of firearm magazines, but mass murders have been committed that did not involve assault weapons or hi-cap magazines.

While allowing trained individuals to have firearms in schools might not be the best solution, it is quite possibly one of the best alternatives that we can actually implement. At this time it doesn't look like the Assault Weapons Ban II will pass in the U.S. Congress and neither will the ten round magazine limit. These laws can and have been passed at the state level although in some cases they may face legal challenge.

I do not favor arming classroom teachers but instead support armed school resource officers and in some cases select school personnel who have FAR more training than the average person with a carry permit has.

The majority of school massacres have been caused by people with severe mental issues and in almost all cases these individuals have waved red flags which have been ignored. Therefore I support improvements to our mental health care system and to our NICS firearm background check system.

[SQUEE]

33. I also think we need to harden classrooms,

I hate the thought but a secure and hardened classroom would provide a safe place to run to in a situation. Far better than assigning a questionable person and his unknown abilities a gun.

[spin]

40. I have no problem with your idea. ...

We hardened the cockpit doors of aircraft to prevent passengers from gaining entrance. We also put in place a program to train some pilots and allow them to have access to a firearm in the cockpit and put armed sky marshals on some flights. We also improved airport security. These measures have so far proved to be an effective deterrent to terrorists who might consider hijacking another plane.

I also mentioned that in my opinion classroom teachers should not be armed but only well trained individuals such as school resource officers who are often police officers. A classroom teacher has his/her hands full and does not need the added responsibility of a firearm in the classroom.

[guardian]

23. Obvious proof that

society should prohibit all law enforcement officers from carrying firearms. yup

[rdharma]

26. Obvious proof........

That you buy into the "more guns = less violence" BS!

[shadowrider]

29. Wait, I thought only the police and military should have guns because

they're trained, and stuff.

[truebluegreen]

31. Yet another responsible gun owner! nt

[ileus]

35. I recommend an M&P with a manual safety.

If you're gonna carry a slab sided firearm keep it in the holster. Level II if you will.


Safety first and carry on my friends...refuse to be a willing victim.

[quadrature]

48. solution.. do not chamber a round

guards in schools should not
be allowed to have a round
in the chamber.

on top of that, there should be some type
of seal that needs to be broken
to rack the slide

[guardian]

54. And store

the ammunition in locked safe that is located on roof of he building.

[Straw Man]

73. Not the best idea, IMO.

And store

the ammunition in locked safe that is located on roof of he building.

Loading or unloading is prime time for a negligent or accidental discharge. A pistol that arrives on and leaves the premises holstered and already loaded is far safer than one that is manipulated in any way while on the premises.

If you were to implement such a protocol, I wouldn't choose the roof. From the roof, there is no safe direction to point the muzzle. Put a clearing barrel in the basement, if you must.

[guardian]

74. Sorry...I forgot the 'sarcasim' thingy

I was attempting humor building on a previous post.

You are right of course and make good points about safety issues.

[Straw Man]

75. My bad.

I guess my Sarcasmeter needs calibration.

[Straw Man]

72. Why should a cop in a school ...

guards in schools should not
be allowed to have a round
in the chamber.

... be in a lower state of readiness than a cop on the street? It's an honest question.

on top of that, there should be some type
of seal that needs to be broken
to rack the slide

Increasing the difficulty of deploying the weapon while also making it more failure-prone? Why?

Training is the answer. I have been in handgun classes with cops. Some of them are very, very good: safe and skilled. Others are very, very bad. Most are in the middle.

[quadrature]

79. mass shootings are not instant

Sandy Hook, if I remember correctly.

the perp had to shoot out a glass door.
that should be plenty of warning...

for a teacher/ SRO to...

rack the slide of an automatic pistol, or,
cock the hammer of a single-action revolver
(takes what, 2 seconds?)

what am I missing here?
please enlighten me.

[Straw Man]

80. Mass shootings ...

... are not the only type of violent incident the SRO may encounter. And even those are not necessarily going to follow the same pattern as previous incidents.

I can see no reason why the SRO shouldn't follow the same weapons protocol as an officer on patrol anywhere. And have at least the same level of training and qualifications.