Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumThe Rude Pundit has a lovely Good Friday message for some of you gungeoneers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022583960sylvi
(813 posts)If you think that's okay and should remain legal, then there is something deeply, disturbingly fucked-up about you.
Response to sylvi (Reply #1)
sinister minister Message auto-removed
hack89
(39,171 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)I'm not surprised you didn't know that.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)Interesting to see recs as a justification for cowardice.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)"gun safety activists" are a laugh a minute.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)in the center of the herd where it's safe.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)Do the guns make them feel tougher?
Clames
(2,038 posts)...where there isn't?
Does having their own echo chamber make them feel entitled?
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)For the ignorant among us, I did not say that some one could act on their threat, only that it was made. And yes, I readily admit to being opposed to gun nuts.
Clames
(2,038 posts)Herd mentality in other words. Ignorance is a common trait of such herds, especially the ones most isolated at the center...
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)Maybe the herd of gun nuts is too large to even hear oneself. Sorry, use of the word herd could imply buffalo or elephants, I would hesitate to associate gun nuts with something as frightening as a flock.
Someone is really reaching for a way to deny what they plainly said.
Clames
(2,038 posts)...from what was stated. A very common problem with those from the Echo Chamber. Must be some sort of mass hallucination at work...
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)The "echo chamber" is a very original turn of phrase, and "mass hallucination" is even more so.
But you see, the meaning of words can be ascertained in something called dictionaries and are not necessarily whatever the author claims they are.
You mightalso look up "herd mentality" while you're at it.
Response to Progressive dog (Reply #33)
Post removed
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)Could you provide me with a link?
rrneck
(17,671 posts)The OP used somebody's else's words in an attempt to insult fellow DUers to avoid having his post hidden. Well actually, he used someone else's OP who used someone else's words to attempt an insult. Then he used the number of "recs" to support the OP. He's breaking his neck to stay in the safety of the herd rather than actually assuming responsibility for his attitude. And he got busted for it. There was no threat made.
Of course if you feel threatened, I understand. What exactly is frightening you? This is of course an anonymous message board, so you can't be physically harmed or insulted in any meaningful way. Has it occurred to you that it is not you that is not threatened but your ideas? If you are that afraid of ideas that disprove your preconceptions, perhaps you should have them retire to the center of the herd where they will be safe.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)So the OP insulted you, and that gives you the right to make a threat, that really wasn't a threat because it's impossible to make threats against someone if you don't know where they live.
I pointed out what you did, not because anyone should feel threatened by your bluster, but because your response was childish and had nothing to do with the post that you responded to. Get it?
rrneck
(17,671 posts)The OP was childish, taken from another childish OP, who lifted it from a childish talking head blogger who makes a living feeding off the emotions of others and defended by Argumentum ad populum. That blogger, the first OP, this OP, and your attitude are merely an opportunity to feed off your own sanctimony. Such sanctimony is the source of a lucrative revenue stream for organizations like the NRA whether you're a "gun nut" or not. When you let 'em pull your chain, they make money.
Try and keep up.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)Sanctimony, is this an other word that has a new meaning in the gun dictionary? I didn't see the argumentum ad populum used within my or the original post. I'm not even sure how it would apply here. The last I knew, we don't have a ruler and laws are supposed to reflect the views of the people.
I love your new use of the word childish. Very original.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Electric Monk (7,233 posts)
5. 56 reasons, and counting
Electric Monk (7,233 posts)
9. More like a Rec every 6 minutes, actually. 74 and counting now.
And as an added bonus here is that member's sig line: Jurors, please note context.
I guess that's about as much text as I care to waste on such a childish evasion. If you don't like the term use more sophistication.
So now the NRA makes money off people opposing it's propaganda?
Yes. It does. You see for most of its history the NRA was just firearms safety and hunting group. But they discovered that a boatload of money could be made advocating for firearms ownership. They have insinuated themselves between the voters and the government that should be listening to them by taking people's money to lobby for guns. Love 'em or hate 'em they are the eight hundred pound gorilla in the gun control debate. That's because they have a better business model than the anti gun groups that have sprung up like mushrooms to feed off the issue.
And down here on the ground there are millions of people that can't be bothered to actually research the issues that trouble them so much. That might involve something hard like watching a youtube video or something. Instead, they find themselves rooting for, and giving money to, any lobbyist group that tells them whatever bullshit they want to hear. It seems that they have confused citizenship with consumerism and research with smart shopping.
So now you get what we have now: millions of people supporting various corporations that produce ideology for them to consume instead of millions of people who take their responsibilities as citizens seriously. The issues of the day get reduced to bumper stickers flapping on either side of a false dichotomy and a culture war that enriches the 1% while dividing the rest of us because we are busy arguing over the excruciating details of some minor component of some rare tragedy.
And that's how the rich get richer.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)I am in favor of gun regulations that will help reduce gun violence. There is an organization that opposes all gun regulations and pays for propaganda on all media. The money it receives comes mostly from gun manufacturers and paranoid gun worshipers.
Rather than just continue to allow these gun worshipers to control the government, the air waves, the news shows,etc.--some people are trying to stand up, raise money to get the message out, and push back. According to you this is a bad thing, because the rich will get even richer off our spending.
If you are really worried about dividing Progressives or Liberals or Democrats from the gun nuts, put your mind at rest.
The vast majority of gun nuts are already lost. They have their own party and it ain't ours. They've already done their worst to foster their version of justice. You could call their version "might makes right", you could call it "stand your ground", you could be the farthest left wing of the gun nut party and just want to pretend the "rkba" ia absolute.
It doesn't matter, we have to do something about gun violence. Ten thousand gun homicides, twenty thousand suicides a year is not 38 killed by dogs. Numbers matter.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)We all do, just that we actually don't think any of these regulations actually addresses the problem.
The vast majority of gun nuts are already lost. They have their own party and it ain't ours. They've already done their worst to foster their version of justice. You could call their version "might makes right", you could call it "stand your ground", you could be the farthest left wing of the gun nut party and just want to pretend the "rkba" ia absolute.
It doesn't matter, we have to do something about gun violence. Ten thousand gun homicides, twenty thousand suicides a year is not 38 killed by dogs. Numbers matter.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)8k gun homicides in 2010, so you are correct, but no mention of the 55k intentional firearm injuries.
SYG is part of the gun nut agenda and the NRA supports SYG. Do you not know this,or do you want to hide that part of the NRA's agenda? Should we not oppose them on this because some liberal gun nuts might be offended and fight back?
I would agree that Bloomberg is not a liberal or progressive, but there is a political spectrum, and he is far to the left of the vast majority of NRA supporters.
And talk about a croc, why don't you look up suicide success rates, guns vs other methods. Puts the lie to broad claims like "Those 20K suicides would not be prevented by gun laws".
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)of course one has to compare that with the estimated 100K (according to DoJ) or 55-80K (according to gun control advocate and economist David Hemenway) defensive gun uses per year.
The right of individual self defense is a natural right of all species and is part of the Enlightenment. IOW, if you are saying that it is wrong to defend yourself from criminal attack, that is not a traditional liberal position.
Hardly. On economics, unions, Wall Street reform, public education, he make the fucking Tea Party look progressive. He is an authoritarian corporatist.
That suicide study you mention is an example of "card stacking" because it does not take in account for those attempted suicides that are cries for help that want to be found (talking on the phone while taking pills). It also doesn't prove anything. It also doesn't provide evidence that the rate will drop after a gun law is passed. As Canada found in 1977, the use of guns dropped slightly but the use of ropes increased slightly.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)And again with the subject change. Now you pick one statistic out of many compiled by an economist who disagrees with you on gun control to further a pro gun agenda. Then you dispute his take onn gun control by claiming that he is a right winger on other things.
You also claim the right of self defense to be part of the enlightenment without any evidence linking the enlightenment to escalation of personal arms, which gun nuts support, with the enlightenment.
As far as card stacking, are you really claiming that a rope is as efficient as a gun for suicide? 1972, Canada, this is past laughable.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)just look at his record other than what you get from Mike Malloy.
I suggest you read Locke and Paine rather than blindly follow what some ideologue claims.
A rope is the most common method in the world.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)who has found it prudent to vacate the premises.
I am in favor of gun regulations that will help reduce gun violence
Here's a quick thought experiment:
1. If you got rid of all the violent people, would people do violent things?
2. If you got rid of all the guns, would people do violent things?
So why do some people do violence? Are some of us just no good, bad from birth, defective and beyond hope of redemption? Fine conservative concepts those. Or maybe we could fix it so people were less violent. We could do stuff like see to it they had a living wage and time to think about something other than how to gin up a profit for some corporation. greed We could educate them and make them aware that there is something more to life than rabid consumerism. gluttony We could foster compassion so that they won't view others as a foil for the fulfillment of their own desires. lust We could reform our financial system so that people's efforts will be rewarded with security in their old age. sloth We could make government work for all the people so that we become citizens with a shared interest rather than alienated consumers. pride We could reform our tax laws to make the most fortunate among us pay their fair share for the bounty they enjoy. envy And we could give people proper health care, including mental health care, to help them deal with the darker demons of the human soul. wrath
Liberal ideology has some pretty good answers for the seven deadly sins in our culture. And that list of sins significantly predates the development of the Bushmaster AR15.
But you want to "push back" against the NRA. Good for you. But you aren't pushing back against the NRA. You aren't pushing back at all. In fact, you're helping them along. I'm sure you've heard people, you would call them gun worshipers, refer to firearms as tools instead of the much more colorful "death spewing killing machines" or whatever. What you don't seem to understand is that you are just as much a gun worshiper as those you claim to oppose.
A gun is, before anything else it might be, an object. People spontaneously anthropomorphize objects. Sometimes our feelings about an object can become so intense we fetishize it. Religious icons fall into this category. In today's modern culture, any number of consumer products also become icons either to be desired or despised. There is a multi billion dollar advertising industry designed to turn things like rocks into fetish objects of our desire. And we are so inured to the notion of having objects presented to us for our devotion, we no longer notice it. We are consumers by default, and the political process has reduced candidates and issues to mere products for our consumption.
So when you fetishize a gun, you give it power as a totem. When you assail the totem of a competing group, you galvanize their support for their totem and unify them to action. And they, consumers that they are, trundle out and pay for an ideology that defends their totem and confirms their feelings toward it. That's how the NRA makes all that money. And organizations like the Brady center do exactly the same thing by demonizing the totem of the opposing group for the consumption of fine consumers like you. You get what you pay for.
The problem of course is that over-consumption and commercialism are the root causes of most of the social ills we experience today. Everything from our environmental problems, social malaise, and corrupt economic and political systems are the result of people behaving like consumers instead of citizens and responsible human beings. So when you buy into the idea of "pushing back" against a consumer object instead of actually helping people you aren't furthering liberal ideology but enriching our political enemies. And that's how they win.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)It doesn't take 4 paragraphs to say "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" or even to say --what a simplistic piece of NRA propaganda that only has meaning or relevance in the minds of gun worshipers.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that opposing something results in more opposition to it than supporting or ignoring it.
Should Democrats give up on women's rights because some Democrats don't support them?
What about a fairer tax system?
So pushing for Democratic values makes them less likely to be achieved? That is what you are arguing.
"Consumerism is a root cause of ...social ills...today" makes pushing back against a particularly dangerous "consumer object" the wrong thing to do? Is that what you are arguing, because it is what you said?
So, anyhow, I am glad that you agree that guns are just a consumer object. So, why don't we treat them like all consumer objects and impose safety standards on them?
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Fine consumer logic there. If you buy the right stuff, you will be the right kind of person. By the same token, if you buy the wrong stuff you will be a bad person. So if we just get rid of the wrong stuff, there will be no bad people.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that opposing something results in more opposition to it than supporting or ignoring it.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out there are members of the 1% creating ideology mills designed to profit from that opposition.
So pushing for Democratic values makes them less likely to be achieved? That is what you are arguing.
I'm arguing that you got your understanding values out of a cereal box because you like sugar. My understanding of Democratic values runs a lot deeper. Reproduced here for your convenience:
So why do some people do violence? Are some of us just no good, bad from birth, defective and beyond hope of redemption? Fine conservative concepts those. Or maybe we could fix it so people were less violent. We could do stuff like see to it they had a living wage and time to think about something other than how to gin up a profit for some corporation. greed We could educate them and make them aware that there is something more to life than rabid consumerism. gluttony We could foster compassion so that they won't view others as a foil for the fulfillment of their own desires. lust We could reform our financial system so that people's efforts will be rewarded with security in their old age. sloth We could make government work for all the people so that we become citizens with a shared interest rather than alienated consumers. pride We could reform our tax laws to make the most fortunate among us pay their fair share for the bounty they enjoy. envy And we could give people proper health care, including mental health care, to help them deal with the darker demons of the human soul. wrath
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that both support and opposition to guns is the source of a revenue stream for millionaires who are getting rich by dividing us with these foolish culture wars and using the money to pervert the political process to screw us. But you can't see that. You are such a fundamentalist gun worshiper you think things like history, physics, sociology, iconology, and psychology are NRA talking points. Next you'll be telling me the earth is six thousand years old. You are so entranced with your ideological product you're only capable of replying with anti NRA talking points. That's because you bought your talking points like a good little consumer and you trot them out like the fetish objects they are whenever you are afraid.
Boo!
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)All I can think of is the song "hey people, leave my guns alone". (or maybe I got the words wrong) when I read your posts.
Now after expending a lot of finger energy defending the NRA and the guns, you have the audacity to call me a gun worshiper. Why would I want to regulate guns if I were a gun worshiper? Why would I have my sig line if I were a gun worshiper?
You actually said "You are such a fundamentalist gun worshiper you think things like history, physics, sociology, iconology, and psychology are NRA talking points." You left out mathematics, philosophy, sociology etc.
I'll give you unearned credit for understanding what the subjects you claim I don't understand are, BUT it is obvious within your own (sentence?) that you have no clue what worship means.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Yeah, I know. Like I said, you can't think about the issue outside the script written for you by the ideology industry.
People worship the object of their fears all the time. Haven't you ever heard of a God fearing Christian?
There is always an evil object to fear.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Indonesian_Volcano_Culture
Volcanoes are also worshipped by many as the sacred home of deities. The Balinese sleep with their heads toward nearby volcanoes. And when the residents of Flores, the Nage, die theyre usually buried with their feet pointing in the direction of the ocean and their head toward Mount Ebulobo. When the gods seem restless, believers make offerings of vegetables, money, chickens, and even goats to appease them as well as to bring prosperity. Many Indonesians believe natural disasters are the result of personal behavior and can influence the successor downfallof political candidates and leaders. No matter what the cause, Indonesians lead a fragile existence. Some of the most dramatic reminders of how fragile it is include the 2004 tsunami that claimed 170,000 lives on the island of Sumatra and the mud volcano that has been erupting in East Java since May 2006 and so far has displaced 10,000 families.
And there is always a priesthood to guide and encourage that fear - for a price.
And woe be to those who spout any heresy that conflicts with their beliefs...
You just keep looking out for those NRA talking points and be sure to measure them against the orthodoxy you bought and paid for. Try not to notice that the same money grubbing one percenters are working both sides of the street to sell people their own fears and preconceived notions.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)they will produce a more interesting discussion than anything you have produced.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Fetishists with Pope Wayne as their interceder with the God of Firearms.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Which effort is a lobbying arm of a manufacturing niche?
Your equivocation is the same as calling Unions and the Chamber of Commerce members all the same.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)ideology tailored for specific markets. The NRA is a lot bigger and more profitable because they have a better business model. They set the agenda because they have a positive totem, a gun, where anti gun groups can only claim to be against that totem. The anti gun groups will always be in "me too" mode because their ideology is a spinoff of that provided by the NRA. But they all manufacture ideology for the consumption of a public that doesn't care to be bothered to think for themselves.
Lobbying government is big business.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)to see people perceive threats when there are none? Do you think someone will shoot you on the internet? There's a protected group if you're in a swivet.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Stigmatization, shout-show politics, animosity toward others, and gross, Jim Crow-genre stereotypes.
And without any objection to the closed loop "controlled show."
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)throwing together words and thinking they have expressed a relevant thought.
It does actually surprise me that many DUers are so enthralled by guns that they claim to be victims when their guns are not respected.
Pale Blue Dot
(16,831 posts)Those of you defending assault weapons and large-capacity magazines are the modern-day Rosa Parks.
Clames
(2,038 posts)...complain and rec each other's complaints.
Then they whine all the more when they don't get their way...
DonP
(6,185 posts)Well that, and counting on somebody else actually spending their money, so you don't have to really do anything and then you can post angry things online and pretend to be involved.
That's the true beauty of being a gun control supporter it seems. You can feel all warm, smug and self righteous, post a few things about how the NRA is evil. Then sit around in your clubhouse with a handful of other like minded people, ban any disagreement and tell yourselves how wonderful you all are and how horrible we are for owning guns and not agreeing with them.
Then, when nothing happens, blame it on the people who were right in the first place that you refused to even listen to.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)Okay, is there some secret knowledge necessary to understand this?
DonP
(6,185 posts)Response to Electric Monk (Original post)
Post removed
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Talk about frothing at the mouth mindless drivel.
Robb
(39,665 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)Ah well, better late then never!
ileus
(15,396 posts)I really need some 5 and 10 rounders for hunting.
But for general purpose and self defense I'll keep my 20's and 30's.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Has any legislation been proposed that would make it illegal to be able to fire 150 rounds of .223 in five minutes? Certainly anybody with a standard-stocked Mini-14 and whole bunch of 10-rounds magazines could do it, and those aren't on the chopping-block. As has been discussed over on the other thread, a shooter with moderate experience could even do it with a WWI-era Lee Enfield bolt action. It could easily be done with a modern bolt or pump action with a removable magazine, like the Ruger Scout Rifle or the Remington 7615, neither one of which meets any definition of "assault weapon."
The Pundit certainly makes up in rudeness what he lacks in factual accuracy. But then, one should never let accuracy stand in the way of good rant, should one.
sylvi
(813 posts)But according to our resident grab nut weapons ex-spurts, it can only be done with the *Magical 30-Round Magazines.
*Now Available From Ronco®
For A Limited Time Only - Buy One Magical 30-Round Magazine, Get A Popeil Pocket Fisherman For Free!
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)The weapon above is the Ruger Gunsite Scout, not the Mini 14 (which is semi-automatic). I have one and, if I didn't aim very well, I could probably put 150 rounds through it in five minutes -- which is 2 seconds per shot to cycle the bolt plus 15 mag changes.
The problem isn't the cycle time but ...
I couldn't carry 15 magazines worth of .308 (the Ruger GS only comes in .308) and, at more than a dollar a round, it's nearly $200 worth of ammo in five minutes.
However, if you want to see someone putting out rounds with manual rifle -- and putting them all on target - you should check out this
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)24-26 aimed shots off in under a minute. I would usually run about 33 seconds when I was trying to be competitive and currently most of the top shooters in New England are running between 20-25 seconds depending on how the course of fire is laid out.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2013, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)
I know it's the Scout Rifle, but for some reason I thought the Scout Rifle was available in .223 -- the point is that it is a bolt action with a 10-round magazine.
Clames
(2,038 posts)The semi-automatic shotgun on top? Exempted BY NAME ("Benelli M1 Tactical" on the currently proposed AWB. The semi-automatic shotgun below? Banned....and is also the Benelli M1 Tactical.
The difference?
Also exempted by name? Benelli M1 Defence, Benelli M2 Tactical, Beretta TX4 Storm, and several other scary, black, semi-automatic shotguns that are no different in function or lethality. I would love to see someone from the Echo Chamber try to explain how this AWB, just like the 1994 one, is anything but a ban on cosmetic features.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)certainly makes it clear why gun control is one fail after another.