Seeking feedback

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

It has been alleged here that: "...the gun culture thinks Randy Weaver was/is a saint."

Would some of you please offer some opinions on Randy Weaver of Ruby Ridge, ID?

Thanks

[liberal_biker]

1. Saint? Hell no.

Man who was severely wronged and fucked over by the BATFE? HELL YES!

Would I invite Weaver to my house? Of course not. However, the man did nothing illegal. While I may not agree with his separatist views, they are his to hold and I will defend his right to hold them. Further, he did what I would consider the honorable thing and recognized that since he couldn't get along with everyone, he removed himself from the environment rather than expecting others to adjust to his personal issues. The guy lived in East Asshole, ID to get away from anyone that wasn't white. Can't fault him for having the courage to back up his feelings with actual action.

Was he a saint? No, of course not. Was he a criminal? No, he wasn't. Did he do anything which deserved the execution of his wife, son and dog? FUCK NO.

[PavePusher]

2. ^^^ What s/he said. ^^^

There are almost always plenty of reasons to find anyone distasteful. Only needy, attention-whoring, mendacious Mrs. Grundy's need to invent shit.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. IIRC...

...he was charged with but not convicted of making a sawed-off shotgun. There has been the allegation that entrapment was involved. In this country you are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

I can't see risking his family as he did but I guess that's not a crime either.

I know the pro-control crowd see him as an awful criminal and his prejudices along with the tenuous involvement in the Aryan Nations do not lead me to believe that he was any kind of hero or saint.

[Hoyt]

20. OK, maybe "beloved martyr" would have been a better term. Now you guys happy?

Personally I can't see defending to any extent someone who agrees to provide illegal guns to folks at an Aryan Nation "get together" of worthless racists and terrorists -- but, I guess that's just me.

He should have given up, just like another "martyr" of the gun culture David Koresh. Then his wife (I guess in Koresh's case, "wives" or teen rape victims) would be safe.

[liberal_biker]

21. Beloved Martyr?

You're aware he is still alive right? You're also aware he did not provide illegal firearms to anyone in the Aryan Nation, are you not?

Oh wait - never mind - for a moment there I thought you cared about facts. Carry on...

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. The Doctor Pangloss of government wrongdoing caring about facts? As if...

[ileus]

23. Alive and rich...

[Hoyt]

24. Is that what matters to you? I think being an Ayran Nation racist, illegal gun trafficker,

etc., ain't worth any money he might have gotten with help from fellow members of "gun culture."

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. How many guns did he illegally traffic in, again?

Yeah, thought so...

[Hoyt]

28. Oh sure, making a deal to supply illegal guns at an Ayran Nation meeting is just good ole boy fun.

He is a terrorist. You can't change my mind about that.

[liberal_biker]

30. He did not actually make that deal

Do you give a damn about facts? Had he actually done that, he would have been very easily imprisoned for it. As it was, the judge tossed the charges as they were nothing more than pure entrapment. Weaver was not convicted of a damned thing. Accusations do not equal guilt.

[Hoyt]

31. Entrapment? He thought undercover agent was a fellow racist/terrorist. Thank God, it was an agent,

and not some racist/terrorist looking for another gun to use to intimidate minorities and their children.

I'm sorry, I know the facts.

[liberal_biker]

35. I'm sorry but you don't

As explained repeatedly to you, it was entrapment. The ATF, knowing he was broke, sought him out, offered him a ridiculous sum of money, begged him to do it, and set him up with the Aryan Nation. Yes, the judge considered it a crystal clear case of entrapment in fact. Further, he was not convicted of squat.

Racists and terrorists are not the same thing.

There's not a whole lot of minority intimidation going on in East Asshole, ID, seeing as how it is about a bazillion miles from anywhere and there are no minorities around.

You wouldn't know a fact if it sat on your face, Hoyt.

[MicaelS]

39. Go peddle your terrorist shit somewhere else..

The only reason you're calling him a terrorist is because of your hatred for guns and those who own them. If Weaver had been anyone else but a gun owner and white separatist, and had been entrapped by the Feds and had family members killed by the FBI, you would be the one claiming he was a martyr and victim.

Your virulent hatred of gun owners and guns oozes from almost post you make. The fact you continue to defend the ATF's Fast and Furious "ends justifies the means" mindset shows that you will accept any actions in defense of your hatred.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

41. You must be confused.

Perhaps you meant conspirator. Federal laws allow conspiracy charges against a lone "conspirator".

Even "G" men realize that to be a "terrorist" a crime of terror has to be committed. Maybe you should watch J Edgar again.

[liberal_biker]

29. I'm typing this slowly so you can understand.

He is NOT part of the Aryan Nation.

He is NOT an illegal gun trafficker.

The money came from the federal government when he sued the snot out of them.

He may well be a racist, but last I checked, one is free to hold those views all one wants in this country and it is not even close to illegal.

[Hoyt]

32. He was at an Ayran Nation meeting -- maybe he hadn't filled out his membership papers and

mounted his certificate on the wall in his compound. But he is a racist and he wasn't there by mistake as the "gun culture" would have us believe.

You guys amaze me.

[liberal_biker]

36. Nobody said

He was there by mistake. Far from it. In fact, every one of us has been quite clear that he is a known racist and white separatist. So what? That's still legal whether you like it or not. Going to an AB meeting does not make you a member of the AB and is also perfectly legal no matter what you might think. You of all people should know you're free to be as stupid as you want in this country.

What amazes me is how, with all the facts on Ruby Ridge and Weaver being so publicly available, you can continue to spew untruths.

[rl6214]

44. You gonna post a link to where we can find his conviction for gun trafficing?

Yeah, I thought not.

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. Your copy of the US Constitution seems to have a glaring typo in it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't see "This section shall apply only to persons that Hoyt finds acceptable" anywhere in there...

I also can't wait to read your denunciation of Miranda v. Arizona because it went in favor of the decidedly unloveable Ernesto Arturo Miranda:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_v._Arizona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Miranda

[iverglas]

57. so Hoyt had it right?

"Belovèd martyr" it is, then.

Ee'd plebnista ...

[friendly_iconoclast]

59. It seems you need reminding of *this* earlier reply to you:

Apparently you've forgotten it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=181522#182329

friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Aug-02-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #129

144. Guess what? Civil rights aren't just for "our sort of people"

Edited on Sat Aug-02-08 02:04 AM by friendly_iconoclast
There is a very long history in American jurisprudence of people defending the civil rights of
people they wouldn't have over for dinner. Or who wouldn't have *them* over for dinner.

From John Adams (accused British soldiers in the Boston Massacre), to
the ACLU (Illinois Nazis vs. the city of Skokie), to Sabin Willett (prisoners at Guantanamo).

I wouldn't defend Razzano as a person. I would, however, defend his rights no matter how odious his ideologies.

See: Goose and gander, sauce for.

Hell, I'd even defend your civil rights should you fall afoul of the USAian government, or some lesser polity thereof.
That pesky Fourteenth Amendment and all that...

[TupperHappy]

61. I hate Illinois Nazis (nt)

[MicaelS]

3. Weaver was curmudgeon and an idiot

That isn't sufficient reason for the Larry Potts and Lon Horiuchi to kill his unarmed wife and infant son. Except in the warped minds of those that think every gun owner is a just a criminal-in-waiting.

Certain people here can call a hand a foot, that doesn't make it so.

[The Wielding Truth]

4. Randy Weaver was caught up in a mess of uncooporation and misunderstanding and

hubris on both sides. US gov. overplayed and Weaver over reacted. His fear and gov.'s rigid actions forced Weaver to make a
stand for his freedom. It all worked out badly and is not reason for inspiration on either side. Weaver's work since this incident and the government's monetary awards to the family have been responsible. No one in this situation is a saint. Weaver should have not been attacked as he was backed into a corner. Had he had a very good lawyer from the beginning he might have been able to come away relatively unscathed. It was a fearful man and a testy government. Never a good combination.

[gejohnston]

5. Gerry Spence said it best

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/spenceletter.html

Some people confuse calling out an injustice against the "other" is same as supporting that "other." People are OK with injustice as long as it is against people they don't like. The left is just as guilty as the right and the middle. That is why I detest such faux liberals as I do the right rooting for police brutality against OWS.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. Amen to that.

Standing for the rights of only the "right" people is just plain wrong.

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. That's one hell of a letter. The best part is about 1/3 of the way down the page:

"My name is Gerry Spence" I began. "I'm the lawyer you've been told about. Before we begin to talk I want you to understand that I do not share any of your political or religious beliefs. Many of my dearest friends are Jews. My daughter is married to a Jew. My sister is married to a black man. She has adopted a black child. I deplore what the Nazis stand for. If I defend you I will not defend your political beliefs or your religious beliefs, but your right as an American citizen to a fair trial."

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. That, together with:

That none of us felt responsible for having lost our freedom has been a part of an insidious progression. In the beginning the attention of the flock was directed not to the marauding wolf but to our own deviant members within the flock. We rejoiced as the wolf destroyed them for they were our enemies. We were told that the weak lay under the rocks while we faced the blizzards to rustle our food, and we did not care when the wolf took them. We argued that they deserved it. When one of our flock faced the wolf alone it was always eaten. Each of us was afraid of the wolf, but as a flock we were not afraid. Indeed the wolf cleansed the herd by destroying the weak and dismembering the aberrant element within. As time went by, strangely, the herd felt more secure under the rule of the wolf. It believed that by belonging to this wolf it would remain safe from all the other wolves. But we were eaten just the same.

Sound familiar? Ever read anything here that looks to characterize others as 'deviant members within the flock' because of their beliefs. Ever read anything here that sounds like 'We rejoiced as the wolf destroyed them for they were our enemies'?

[Glassunion]

6. The man is a complete and total

Fucking racist asshole piece of shit douche bag.

None of that is against the law.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. Well, Glass...

...I was hoping you'd share an opinion but don't hold back, now.

[Hoyt]

34. Conspiring with another racist/terrorist is illegal.

[Glassunion]

37. Um...

Please explain exactly what terrorist he conspired with and exactly what they conspired to do.

[liberal_biker]

38. Conspiring to commit a crime...

...is illegal anyway regardless of the political views of those involved.

Now, exactly when was he convicted of conspiracy to commit {insert random crime here}?

He wasn't? Hm...well you're shit outa luck there aintcha?

You see Hoyt, in this country at least, until you're actually convicted of a crime, you're innocent. Not accused, not charged, not even indicted. You have to actually be convicted by a jury of your peers. Now, sometimes this means people who should be in jail for life walk free, but so be it.

One would think, based on your repeated assertions of how people are criminals just because there is a firearm peripherally involved, you neither believe in, nor support the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

[Hoyt]

42. Look, you can stick up for him if you want. I don't care to excuse his terrorism/racism and use of

guns to intimidate and/or commit hate crimes.

[gejohnston]

43. for example?

provide one? Did he bomb someplace?

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. And what terrorist act and/or hate crimes did he commit? Be specific.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. LISTEN UP, grunt.

I have read (or wrote some) everyone of the 45 replies here. NO ONE has "stuck up for" Randy Weaver.


Why can you not understand that just because:
1 Weaver was irresponsible
2 Weaver was a racist
3 Weaver was wrong in a lot of ways

Ignoring his human, civil and legal rights was wrong.


There is no "write it in crayon" button on DU. Sorry.

[Hoyt]

47. You just stuck up for him. n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

48. I truly don't know???

Maybe an ESL class for you???

[gejohnston]

50. from a constituional rights point of view

what the cops did to Weaver is as illegal, immoral, and just fucked up as what has been happening to Pvt Manning. It is not sticking up for Weaver, it is standing up to out of control authorities.

Or are you saying that it is OK to shoot his kid in the back, murdering his wife, and entrapping as so long as it is someone neither of us like? If so, next time Mike Savage defends some San Francisco cop shoots a brown kid in the back...................

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

51. Maybe I can explain better.

What I want to "stick up for" is the concept of equal protection under the law for everyone. You see if rights apply only to non-criminals, they aren't really rights. Everyone gets to freely exercise their rights unless so restricted by due process (jury/court decision) beforehand. Doesn't matter if 6 of your neighbors and 2 cops THINK you're a criminal.

[Hoyt]

52. Too many folks hide behind laws, corporations, etc., and racist, gun intimidated.

I think he was a criminal. But no one should accept his racist, gun toting, terrorist crud.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

53. The most useful tool...

...anyone has is intelligence. Tied for second are freedom and determination.

I have no use for Weaver's ideas or affiliations. His philosophy is repugnant. His rights, however, are my rights and yours. Your right to voice your ideas here (like this one) also guarantee everyone's right to the same. That right also requires that we tolerate the ugly ideas of the few. Accept... NO but tolerate.

[Hoyt]

54. Hey, why don't you give ATF and Holder same consideration?

[gejohnston]

55. how are they the same?

How about Holder doing his job in not only cleaning up ATF but also go after:
BP for 11 murders and trashing the Gulf
Massey for a lot of murders and safety regulations
voter suppression schemes
war criminals like Bush

instead, he wastes his time on some hobby horse and coddling corporate and war criminals like above. Why Obama picked a defense lawyer from one of the most conservative law firms (who makes money defending corporations from the rest of us) is beyond me.
We all support the ATF when they do their jobs without committing crimes and violating rights? Why are you defending a police agency that not only is inept but has a awful EEO record?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

56. I certainly give Secretary Holder the same consideration.

The ATF is another matter. The ATF is a government agency charged with enforcing specific laws. Big, rich, fancy folks like the 1% you talk about now and they can mostly do as they want. They don't need reasonable medical or auto insurance because they hire limos and own hospitals. Who needs a gun when you have armed security and body guards? Well the ATF, FBI, DoD, US Marshals, DHS... are all supposed to protect the folks who won't, don't or can't protect themselves.

The Hippocratic Oath is specific to physicians and I'm told that not all institutions today even have that remaining as a tradition but it contains the Latin "Primum non nocere" meaning first, do no harm.

Being a police officer or justice department official must sometimes be a rather frustrating and frequently maddening line of work. Allowing those folks to make progress in their pursuit of criminals by running over the rights of anyone, including the criminals, is just wrong. If you can't do your job the right way, maybe the job needs a new person to fill it.

An old friend of our family used to say, "Tell the truth and shame the devil." Whenever I see politicians and officials being avoidant, I fear the worst. In the world of politics the only currency that is worth a hill of beans is credibility. I'd just like to see 1 term pass without scandal, lies or disgrace.

Freedom's not free and all those laws and fancy documents to the 10 commandments don't mean squat if they don't apply to everyone equally.

You take care and have a good night.

[liberal_biker]

60. Because they are part of the government....

...and government has no rights - only powers. Further, government is tasked with PROTECTING our rights, and when it misuses its authority and steps all over a man's rights, government should be called to account for it.

Is this so hard for you to comprehend?

[Skwid]

63. You are one terribly frightening person. Are you sure you are living in the right country?

[Skwid]

62. What law makes "conspiring with another racist" illegal?

A hotshot attorney like you should have no problem citing it.

edited because I accidentally out a word.

[rl6214]

10. He was/is a POS who did nothing illegal

Saint, not a chance. Deserving of what happened to him, not a chance.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. whomever said that needs to provide links to prove it ---

I have never seen it here.

Randy Weaver...what do I think of Randy Weaver as a what?

a human being?

a footnote in history?

a father?

a husband?

a resident of Idaho?

a Green Beret?

a factory worker?

his incidents with ATF? oh yeah, that one . . .a confederancy of dunces would sum it up rather succintly, I would think.

[ellisonz]

13. This thread needed...

[ileus]

14. Imagine if Uncle Sam had drones back then...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. Well, personally...

...I favor renaming the MQ-9 as the "Horiuchi".

[jeepnstein]

17. No, far from it.

He used his wife and kids as human shields to promote an ideology that most Americans find repugnant. She obviously had bought into the whole thing but it's not against the law to be a whacko. They paid the price and he collected the settlement.

As far as the government goes in this, well, they have blood on their hands as well. There was no good reason for them to be in a hurry on this raid. Of course the agent getting shot made this a problem. I just have a problem with them deciding to grab him at his home. I'm not saying a traffic stop would have been any better an outcome but up until people started getting shot Weaver wasn't an imminent threat to anyone. I guess the question is "How do you arrest a guy who REALLY doesn't want to be arrested?".

The whole thing turned into a cause for the lunatic fringe who really believes The Turner Diaries are some kind of work of prophecy. Anyone remember a guy who was inspired by Ruby Ridge to go protest at the Waco tragedy that followed?



If not for a bad break at the beginning of the raid he wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.

[PavePusher]

19. "He used his wife and kids as human shields to promote an ideology..."

Ummm, I'm not groking that. Can you explain better/cite evidence? TIA.

[pipoman]

18. There are very few, on either side (dem or rethug)

who like what weaver stands/stood for..likely more agree on the right, but certainly not mainstream..He and his family were ultimately victims of an out-of-control government agency bent on violating his civil liberties in the name of reasonable law enforcement. The out of control government agency refused to acknowledge it's abuse..to this day.. Those involved in this complete miscarriage of justice were not disciplined, they were promoted. Not completely unlike the current fast and furious scandal and denial of responsibility...we deserve better and should demand accountability and appropriate consequences for responsible government agents/agencies regardless the affiliation or beliefs of the victim(s) of those agents/agencies...but, alas..

[SteveW]

27. His views and politics were reprehensible, no doubt...

Though if everyone who is pro-2A in this thread agreed with that, those who promote smearing of gun-owners will never be convinced. They must run-down tens of millions of fellow-Americans; it is all they have left.

And yes, he and others were wiped out by a government agency for little if any reason.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

40. He was shot.

What really happened:

His wife, son, dog... were killed. Weaver and Harris were wounded.

He sued and got paid.

How it happened and why it was wrong:

Everyone who was killed or wounded was shot before any announcement of LEO presence or request for surrender.

This operation is the Mother of all F%%%U%%s! There is no way that an organization(s) so mismanaged and lacking direction should be allowed continued civilian interaction without retraining and re-education.


What we learned:

- Government makes mistakes.
- The lives of a wife and son were worth $50,000 (1995 dollars) each to the federal government.

The irony:

After an honorable discharge from the Army as a Sergeant, Weaver married Vicky and enrolled at UNI for criminal justice; he wanted to be an FBI agent.

[Atypical Liberal]

33. The was a racist who got his family killed by an overzealous government.

The was a racist who got his family killed by an overzealous government.

The sad fact is our government continually gets a hard-on for these in-your-face, no-knock, paramilitary raids.

All of this shit could be avoided by just waiting until they go put gas in their truck.

[Deejai]

58. How did he get his family killed?

The marshalls ambushed Weavers boys and shot Sam Weaver in the back. Then later Lon Horiuchi shoots Vicki Weaver through the head. The government goons were trigger happy.