Anti-gun group study: In states with 'stand your ground' laws, justifiable homicide rates soar

[alp227]

A new study by a coalition of gun-control groups, including Mayors Against Illegal Guns, found that in states that have implemented "stand your ground" laws, the number of justifiable homicides has skyrocketed.

The rate is up 53 percent in 22 states, according to the study. In Florida, the average annual rate is up 200 percent. In states that do not have those laws, the rate has declined marginally.

The study, co-sponsored by the National Urban League and VoteVets.org, also concludes that the number of deaths of black people deemed to be justifiable in states with those laws has doubled.

"These laws can have deadly consequences, particularly for African-Americans," former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial, president of the National Urban League, said in a prepared statement. "We need our elected officials to reform these policies to make sure we're doing the right things to reduce unjustified shootings and save lives."

full: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-guns-stand-your-ground-problems-20130916,0,2568352.story

[gopiscrap]

1. Not a surprise

[HockeyMom]

2. How does this affect you in SYG states?

I am in Florida. Today I saw a strange car sitting in front of my house. It then went to the house next door, and the next one, and just stood there too. I did NOT tell my husband for fear he would have gone outside with his GUN. I wrote down the license plate of the car though, just in case.

I suppose living in a Gun State, with a Gunner, you need to think one step ahead of them? I never used to live, or think like this.

[gejohnston]

4. What?

Actually, Florida has about the same gun ownership rate as New York. Remember, half of Florida used to be New Yorkers. It is not really a "gun state".

In case you don't understand how SYG works, it simply means that you don't have a duty to retreat if you safely can. In DYR states, like New York and Wyoming (which has the highest gun ownership rate), you have a duty to retreat only if you can do so safely. Since either theory requires a reasonable fear of immediate fear of death or grave bodily harm, using the reasonable person standard. That being the case, shooting or stabbing the guy in the car doesn't meet that standard in either case. That said, if you walk up and ask him "can I help you" and he responds by jumping out and starts pounding your head in the sidewalk, that changes things.

BTW, not all self defense killings are with guns. I know of at least two in Tampa with knives, and two Castle Doctrine cases with swords.

[HockeyMom]

10. CCW difference in Florida and NY

You need to show a REASON for CCW in NY but not in Florida. Husband turned down for that in NY but not in Floriduha.

[gejohnston]

11. in theory, but how it really works

is that most counties are defaco shall issue. Some counties and NYC (especially NYC) "reason" is simply how big your check book is. If your husband was a one percenter, he would have a permit. If he were a member of Aerosmith, it would be expedited and the cop would personally walk it through. Of course, there is the LA and Orange County, California "valid reason" is the amount given to the sheriff's re election campaign.
Also, New York has no training requirement, no objective criteria of any kind, since the counties issue them, there is no state oversight. If a state meets certain standards for the ATF, the CCW can waive the background check. New York is one of the few states that is below ATF standards. Those are also the reasons why NY CCW permits are not valid in Wyoming. State law prohibits the WAG from allowing permits from states that are issued on a county level instead of the state government itself. Then there is the training and record keeping..........

Most states are shall issue. Since I managed to keep my Wyoming residence, since I spend as little time in Florida as I have to, I can carry there without a permit. Your husband can't. Oh, and our murder rate is much lower than either NY or Florida.

BTW, self defense laws and CCW have nothing to do with each other. One is a weapons regulation (in Wyoming, it applies to knives and other weapons as well) and the other is use of force law.

[Eleanors38]

12. Wow. Once you wink & nod your way to a permit, NY is pretty loosey-goosey.

[pscot]

3. Justifiable

should be in quotes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. We are witnessing the disintegration of an "empire" - if we do not rebuild our infrastructure

and provide the people with the hope of a better tomorrow and the means with which to achieve that notion, expect to see more of the same. and Yes, due to our constitution guns will be involved. Had our constitution been written differently we would still see the same results but, by a different method.

People need jobs, health care, education and, less stress in their lives.

The weakest will crumble first.

We are fast becoming a nation of survival of the fittest and it is a sad thing to behold.

This is only my observation and opinion. YMMV.

[gejohnston]

6. which means what?

The legal standard of "fear of immediate death or grave bodily harm" requirement hasn't changed. Before, retreat was expected only if could be done safely. Could it be the same number of self defense killings, but fewer innocent people railroaded to jail because some sleazy DA (cough Angela cough Corey cough) convinced a jury that the person could have rolled his wheelchair faster than a sociopath could run? Or is it simply another case of questionable statistics?
All SYG states or just former duty to retreat states that passed SYG statutes recently? Each state developed its own common law on the issue. Even then, they vary from state to state. For example, California has a common law SYG that allows counter attacks if the person is still a threat. OTOH, California has something of a DTR within the home. 33 states are SYG.
The article has some inaccuracies.

Florida's "stand your ground" law, implemented in 2005, allows someone with a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury to use deadly force.

That was true of the old law too. Since Zimmerman screamed for help for almost a minute, and had no ability to retreat, SYG vs DTR doesn't matter.

[ManiacJoe]

7. From the point of view of the law-abiding citizen,

> Anti-gun group study: In states with 'stand your ground' laws, justifiable homicide rates soar

... how is this a bad thing?

[NYC_SKP]

8. Good question. Justifiable suggests deadly threat. Somebody was going to die.

Or there was a chance someone would die.

Better it be the aggressor than the defender.

ETA: In practice, however, we may need to include several deaths deemed justifiable that might have really been avoidable, or even been murders dressed as defensive actions.

I think about the deep south and wonder about that last possibility.

[gejohnston]

9. Florida isn't in the deep south

at least once you get past the panhandle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_South

[Eleanors38]

13. C. Fla is home to the 2nd largest Puerto Rican pop. In the U.S....

and they went for Obama. I was born in Cracker, citrus, sponge, saw mill country; now that county is part of the top 50 U.S. Counties where over half the nation's population resides. Holy Time Typhoon!

[gejohnston]

14. Hillsborough?

Oh, I'm sorry. Here I thought Citrus was over populated.

[Eleanors38]

15. LOL! Seems the old orange grove are fading away to suburbs.

I was born in the Dade City (seat of Pasco Co) clinic because Zephyrhills had none. My Mom's ZHS grad class was less than 10.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. ALTERNATE HEADLINE -- Thousands languish in prison from unjust self-defense requirements

[Eleanors38]

17. Problem with study: Florida has by far more CCW licenses issued...

than other states, real numbers and by percentage. Justifiable homicides can be expected to rise whereas before CCW violent confrontations, robberies, etc. may have ended entirely differently, esp. for the victim. This phenomenon may explain other such confrontations in other states; after all, the spread of CCW laws has been rather recent.

[BainsBane]

18. But but, justificable homicide is a "good thing."

Killing is good as long as they can get away with it. It's fuuuuuunnnnnn. The only way I can feel good about myself is to killing another human being, preferably a black teenager. It's the American way. The Klan--oops, I mean NRA--says so!!!!!

[gejohnston]

19. no, when it is nessary to prevent you from being killed or

receiving grave bodily injury. Are you saying defending yourself is immoral?