More good news from Virginia...

[virginia mountainman]

Along with other pro-gun bills, Castle Doctrine is coming to the Old Dominion!

It easily breezed through committee, and now goes to the full house.

http://potomaclocal.com/2012/02/05/castle-doctrine-is-closer-to-becoming-law/

[ewagner]

1. Another ALEC initiative

It was rammed through in Wisconsin along with a "concealed carry" law.

[Skwid]

3. Well, progress is progress.

[gejohnston]

6. Why would ALEC care

anything about guns other than throwing a bone to the little people?

[ewagner]

16. As near as I can tell...

ALEC supports ALL conservative causes....remember gun manufacturers are also members who "say grace" over pieces of legislation to be given to the Republican Governors/legislators to pass......

In Wisconsin ...since concealed carry passed there have been over 75,000 concealed carry licenses issued....the threat of being prosecuted for killing or causing bodily harm to someone you "thought" was breaking into your home has been removed (the so-called Castle Doctrine" that was passed here requires the court to "presume self-defense" first and the prosecution must prove with clear and convincing evidence that there was no "self-defense"...damned near impossible) This, of course has spiked the sale of handguns.

I may be stretching it but that's the connection I perceive.

[Glassunion]

17. Castle Doctrine laws are not legalizing murder.

[gejohnston]

18. I think you misunderstand Castle Doctrine

As I understand it, it is simply the better alternative to duty to retreat, which as far as I can find only exists in the US. In duty to flee, you must flee from your home if possible and fire only if you can not. Even if the prosecution finds that it was self defense, the family of the home invader can still sue you. That does not exist even in Canada, where an Ontario appeals court overturned a conviction because the trial judge gave jury instructions indicating that a guilty verdict would be proper if the homeowner could reasonably flee. The appeals judge overturned it because there is no duty to flee in Ontario.

You may not like the castle doctrine even after you learn what it actually is, but I find duty to retreat morally repugnant and contrary to having a just civil society.
Most local gun laws and duty to retreat were conservative causes when they were enacted.
I have no idea if gun manufactures are of ALEC or not, so how could I remember? Simply because Mike Moore or anyone else said so, does not make it so.

http://mackscriminallaw.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-notable-affirming-castle-doctrine.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

[ewagner]

19. Let me clear this up...

I didn't say that the Castle Doctrine "legalized murder"...

nor did I imply that the "retreat doctrine" was acceptable.

My brief with the Castle Doctrine is that it instructs to the courts to "presume self-defense" first and puts a burden of proof on the DA to show that it was not.

In addition, most courts in the US of A allowed a lot of room for the self-defense plea even if the retreat doctrine was part of the law. In Wisconsin there is not one, single case anywhere in which a person was found guilty of shooting an intruder in their home. Not One! In effect, the Castle Doctrine was the doctrine being upheld by the courts anyway. There was a fear that open carry might be limited if the castle doctrine was not passed and codified.

My concerns about ALEC are, of course, that it is industry/lobbyist driven to develop legislation to help those industries and passed onto the states. That is why I believe the castle doctrine law was an ALEC companion to concealed carry.

[gejohnston]

20. the burden of proof

should always be on the state (crown for our Canadian readers). Otherwise you are charged with murdering the guy that meant you harm. Under that system, a home invasion or other violent attack either becomes physical harm to you or possibly going to prison and getting sued. Maybe it has never happened in WI, but it does not mean it will not happen.

The issue of concealed carry has been around before ALEC. My view is that if there is no demonstrable benefit to society (which does not count Borkesque claims of moral harm) a restriction should not exist.

[ewagner]

21. Prosecution

always had the huge burden to prove intent in the case of murder...and..the defense only had to provide reasonable doubt to the case put forth by the DA...

We're actually arguing a moot point...both concealed carry and castle doctrine are now the law of Wisconsin and soon to follow in all other states.

[gejohnston]

22. there is only one other state left

and that is Illinois as far as concealed carry goes. Gun laws come and go. There was a time when Texas required a permit to own a handgun and South Carolina banned them for everyone but "special deputies". One was repealed before my lifetime and the other was repealed when I was in kindergarten. Four states are like Vermont. Wyoming is Vermont light, non residents still need a permit from a state that Wyoming honors (which does not include NY or CA). That applies to knives and sword canes also (the law, which was shall issue to PIs, pharmacists, and a couple of other specified occupations but no issue to everyone else was enacted in 1887 and liberalized to shall issue for all in 1995. It became VT light a few years ago.)

[SteveW]

23. "Threat of being prosecuted...has been removed?" Think again...

http://www.kvue.com/home/Northwest-Austin-man-charged-with-murder-after-early-morning-shooting-138689909.html

In this instance, a suspect shot someone in his yard, and the police saw little to indicate that the killing was for self-defense purposes. Texas has castle doctrine, but it didn't prevent:

The suspect in this homicide being charged with murder.

(edit)

At this same link, note the story about home invasion in Leander. And the precautions being taken.

[bongbong]

2. Wedge Issues

It's all the repigs have to distract people from their only, core, message: "Every single penny to the richest 1%"

[SteveW]

24. Yes, they will use wedge issues every chance they get...

...so let's not let them continue to use this issue by pursuing gun-control/prohibition.

[atreides1]

4. Is it really good news?

Virginia Pro-Gun...Anti-Women's Rights!

[gejohnston]

5. How so?

I fail to see the connection.

[liberal_biker]

9. Could you explain that?

Lived there for a number of years and I wouldn't call VA to be anti-women's rights at all...Its a lot of things, but not that...

[ileus]

7. It's about time...we've waited for this too long.

[Simo 1939_1940]

8. More of that "backlash" we were told was on the way. NT

[lastlib]

10. More killing...I guess that's good huh?

[DonP]

11. No, actually record low murder and violent crime

One more time, more guns does not equal more crime.

[liberal_biker]

12. Yep - just like the blood in the streets when CHLs became commonplace....

Oh wait, that never happened.

It never ceases to amaze me how often pro gun control people claim all manner of bad things yet forget those claims when reality proves them wrong.

Plain simple fact of life my friend - criminals are the problem, not the victims, and the public in general has no problem with criminals getting a few extra holes in them.

[ileus]

15. And don't forget to include all the drunken bar shootings.....blood..BLOOD I tell you!

[Simo 1939_1940]

13. No - victims of criminals don't get victimized TWICE.

First, when they are on the receiving end of an unjustified attack, and second when the justice system punishes them for defending themselves.

[Skwid]

14. If the killing is of home-invaders, thugs and gangbangers, yes it is a WONDERFUL thing.

[SteveW]

25. "More killing?" Have you checked the homicide rates over the last 15+ years?...

You will find they have declined to record lows, even as the number of weapons in civilian hands has gone up by over 100,000,000. This is not to say that the number of arms caused this steady drop, but it does show that the number of arms cannot be linked to "more killing."

Most of the people who commit homicides have extensive felony rap sheets; the average citizen who acquires a concealed-carry weapon is just that: The average citizen, who doesn't commit felonies. And murders.