This thought came to me today.

[upaloopa]

I was told that I don't need to fear the gun carriers I need to be concerned about the criminals.
Now if I were a young Black man I could easily be mistaken for that criminal by a guy carrying a gun. And I could easily lose my life while the shooter claimed he was in fear of his life.
Now why were Dunn and Zimmerman so afraid for their lives that they shot unarmed Black teens?
Could it be that they have preconceived notions about Black youth? Both men expressed anxiety over what they perceived as motives of young Black men. It is on record.
So here we have two gun carriers with histories of making racial comments about Black youth and both men saying they killed unarmed Black teens because they feared for their lives.
So if I were a Black teen who should I be more afraid of a criminal or a ordinary gun carrier?

[SheilaT]

1. It's a little tempting to blithely

(and ignorantly) brand all gun carriers as criminals. In reality, of course, they're not. But every time some otherwise law-abiding citizen decides it's okay to shoot at someone because that person is playing music too loud, or texting on his cell phone before the movie, or whatever, that person is now a criminal. And a murderer. Without those guns, the victims would still be alive. Period.

We all need to be afraid of the ordinary gun carriers. Black teens more than most of us, but all of us need to be in fear.

[Straw Man]

3. Because we all know ...

Without those guns, the victims would still be alive. Period.

... that before firearms were invented, violent altercations leading to death didn't exist. Period.

[upaloopa]

5. More straw. Why have a gun? It is the most convenient way to kill.

At a distance with less of a chance of being harmed. Sell your gun and buy a knife I dare you!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. I don't know about anyone else but...

...I'd very much prefer to be killed inconveniently.

[Straw Man]

20. More nonsense.

Taking away all the guns would merely hand the extreme advantage to the brutal and physically strong, just like the the "good old days."

[upaloopa]

23. Well I see in the good old days of the 1800's there was a lot of killing too.

I am not advocating to take away all the guns. I don't know the answer but you and I on opposite ends will never solve it.

[gejohnston]

27. actually there wasn't

at least not in the west.

[upaloopa]

31. Read the history of Green River WY in the 1860's

[gejohnston]

32. I think you are about 15 miles and 20 years off

If you are thinking of a race/labor riot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Springs_massacre
Which was one out of the entire west. That is an anomaly. That said, even those numbers paled compared to the regular street crime and murder in the eastern cities,
http://history1800s.about.com/od/urbanconditions/p/fivepointsnyc.htm

[upaloopa]

33. When they build the railroad through Green River there was at least one killing a day some times mor

[gejohnston]

35. then the

population would be zero within a year. Can you back that up?

[upaloopa]

37. Sure can

I would have to look up my books on the railroad

[gejohnston]

39. cool,

I like learning more about my neck of the woods, or desert if you will. I Grew up in Rock Springs, about 15 miles to the east. I go back as often as possible. The wife is a Floridian, so I have to put up with Citrus County.
Florida is over rated. But then, I thought the same of Sonoma County while at Travis.
The best thing I can say about it is the diving is OK, and my son gets to take in some industrial bands that go to Tampa. But I digress.
It might be worth noting that SYG really didn't show up in US legal system until 30 years later in California and the mostly Chinese and Irish immigrants didn't own guns. Green River was duty to retreat then as it is now. Wyoming and Hawaii are the only western states without some type of SYG.
I can relate about the single action revolvers. While everyone was getting gouged by the AR run, I was shopping for lever actions. I like them when I go hiking back home. If I were to carry, of course I would pick something more modern. Since I'm either in Mayberry or the woods, it would be a solution in search of a problem.

[Straw Man]

43. Try the Middle Ages.

European cities had murder rates 10 times that of the present-day United States.

[ileus]

25. Or is it because it's the most convenient way to save a life

during a violent attack?


My EDC is designed to save lives...of course I have to use it properly. That means being dedicated, and train, train, train.

[spin]

46. I always carry a knife but to me it is a tool not a weapon. ...

I would not recommend a knife as your prime self defense weapon.

1) In many states the size or type of knife that you can legally carry limit its effectiveness as a weapon. Some cities have stronger restrictions than the state. In many states you can have a permit to carry a concealed firearm but carrying a concealed knife even with a CCW is still illegal.
(You can view the various state and city knife laws at http://thefiringline.com/library/blades/knifelaws.html)

2) Knife fighting is a martial art and not easy to master. Even finding a good instructor is difficult. Without training there is a good possibility that your attacker will disarm you and use your knife against you.

WHO WILL TEACH ME HOW TO KNIFE FIGHT?


Previously, I stated that you must possess technical knife fighting proficiency if you are to have a fighting chance against a formidable adversary. This means you need systematic training with a qualified edged weapon instructor who specializes exclusively in reality based self defense training. Let me emphasis the word, "qualified".

Unfortunately, you will not find him or her in commercial martial arts schools. You must remember all commercial martial arts schools are a typical business looking to make substantial profits. This means they must cater to the mainstream public and design "family oriented" programs that are socially acceptable.

For example, if a martial arts school was teaching quick kill knife targets by demonstrating the proper way to drive a tactical folder into the enemy's subclavian artery, they would lose their precious clientèle quicker than hell. So now the owner or manager of the school is faced with one of two options. The first option is to avoid the entire subject of tactical knife fighting and never add it to their training curriculum.

The second option is to offer watered-down elements of blade fighting in their curriculum that will not raise the attention and concern of the community. This actually presents a liability to the student because they are under the false impression they are receiving genuine and authentic life saving skills when in actuality they are getting the complete opposite. The bottom line is commercial martial arts are not suited to instruct the extreme combat situations that a soldier, police officer or civilian might face one day.
http://www.sammyfranco.com/knife-fighting-techniques.html

3) If you are attacked and are charged, the jury will be more likely to agree that you used your weapon for legitimate self defense if it is a firearm than a knife.

Defending Self-Defense Knife Use

Interview by Gila Hayes

***snip***

If you stab or cut somebody and expect them to fall down like they do in the movies, it is not going to happen. The problem with using a knife in self defense is that most people don’t know that they’ve been cut. So you have to hit this guy five or six or seven times and often that won’t work to get him to stop. That makes it look like you weren’t defending yourself; it makes it look like you were attacking.

***snip***

eJournal: How does defense with knives sit with juries?

MacYoung: Knives are a thug’s weapons. If you stab somebody and you stab him repeatedly, then you’re going to be the bad guy in their minds. It is really hard to get rid of that impression if you’ve gone “weed-whacker-of-death” on him. I can justify cutting and running a whole lot better.
http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/defending-self-defense-knife-use

4) If you are faced by an attacker who is armed with a firearm and he is ten feet from you, you are at a significant disadvantage if all you have is a knife.

I think I will ignore your challenge to sell my gun and rely on my knife for self defense. My snub nosed revolver is an excellent tool for self defense and my knife is an excellent tool for opening cardboard boxes and slicing up tomatoes.

[Eleanors38]

40. "all of us need to be in fear." Are you actually advocating this?

I should think if the fear is that palpable, so widespread, why do you need to proselytize for such a psychological state? You seem to be trying to work up some kind of angst or mass fear, as if the country is one big local nightly newz report.

You know, people have long joked about the "bleeds? It leads" nature of crap news reporting from a shrinking MSM. But it sounds as if gun controllers are cut & pasting a strategy based in this stuff. Our homicide rates are far lower than they were 20 yrs. ago. I just can't work up that ol'

Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid gut-feeling.

[SheilaT]

41. So long as I have no idea who out there is

carrying a gun, and worse yet who is sufficiently deranged to shoot at the slightest imagined slight, then I probably do need to be in fear.

It's good that homicide rates are lower than they were, but if fewer people were out there with guns, then they'd be even lower. Sort of like they are in countries that don't allow everyone to have a gun.

[Eleanors38]

42. I just don't experience those fears, viscerally or in the abstract.

Each day, hundreds if not thousands pass by me, and the last concern I have is whether or not they are packing.

Please note the Law in this country does not allow "everyone" to have a gun: convicted felons, adjudicated mental incompetents, underage people cannot purchase firearms.

Since most homicides are committed by law-breakers with criminal records, They are the ones who should not have guns; tens of millions of law-abiding citizens with guns are not going to affect the homicide rates in this country. We probably have 100,000,000+ more guns in civilian hands when compared to the mid-90s; yet homicides have dropped by more than half. No one knows for sure why this rate had dropped, but it seems evident the "more guns=more crime" meme is not sustained by reality.

I favor opening the National Instant Background Check system to Everyone, not just federally licensed dealers. Why this hasn't been done on even a voluntary basis, I don't know.

[gejohnston]

2. Don't believe everything you see in the media

The media created a narrative. When reality, like found in court, conflicts with the narrative, they don't correct it. Add to that the partisan hacks on the right and the left, and half wit bloggers and pundits who mostly make shit up while playing telephone.
Here is what really happened:
two eye witnesses saw Martin pound Zimmerman's head in the concrete, physical evidence backed it up, and his screams for help are on the 911 tapes when the witnesses called 911 for at least 40 seconds. Tracy Martin told the cops and the court that it wasn't his son screaming for help.

So here we have two gun carriers with histories of making racial comments about Black youth and both men saying they killed unarmed Black teens because they feared for their lives.

In Zimmerman's case, the comments were manufactured or speculated by some blogger. His business partner was black. His high school girl friend was black. His grandmother was black.

Dunn, is a different deal.

BTW, most self defense cases are blacks defending themselves. Which makes sense, since they are most often the crime victims.

[upaloopa]

6. For fuck sakes. Martin had no right to defend himself

but Zimmerman did? Too bad Martin wasn't armed then he could have stood his ground!
Zimmerman's remarks were on the 911 call
"These ......... always get away."
I don't need you to tell me what happened

[gejohnston]

9. Evidence showed

Martin out ran Zimmerman getting to his Dad's girl friend's house and doubled back. His phone conversation with Jeantile backs it up. There is no evidence Zimmerman through the first punch. Also, under Florida law, if the aggressor starts to back off, or gives up, you must stop. If not, then the roles switched. Even Martin's friend, the State's "star witness" said Martin started the confrontation.

[clffrdjk]

10. I don't need you to tell me what happened

No you seem to be doing a pretty good job of making it up as you go. Screw the evidence we all know it was planted by the KKK.

[upaloopa]

11. Look in the mirror when you say that.

I have news accounts court records and you have right wing bloggers!

[gejohnston]

12. I once worked for a guy that was on the Chicago Seven jury

He said what the media said, and what the truth had nothing in common. I watched the trial live, and the complete archive is on You Tube.

[clffrdjk]

15. Court records ha ha ha ha

The jury who I promise had more access to the court records disagrees with your assessment of the court records. And what's worse is that you put the media above even the court records as some sort of proof. I don't think I can take you seriously.

[gejohnston]

4. post script

I don't believe Dunn feared for his life. He is just some asshole with anger and control issues who probably would have opened fired regardless of the race.

[clffrdjk]

8. If Zimmerman did not qualify to be afraid for his life

Then please tell me what qualifies? In your mind when can a person defend themselves, how much of a beating should they take first? How long should the victim allow the rape to last be for they are certain it is really a rape and not a mugging?

[upaloopa]

13. Why did Zimmerman put himself in that position?

Why did he not let the police handle it like they told him to?
Because he felt he needed to do what his racist mind told him to do and when
Martin didn't act as he should be killed Martin. Blame the victim and defend the shooter is part of sick gun culture!
You and I would have done exactly like Martin did, try to defend ourselves with what we had.

[gejohnston]

14. if you have the court records, you would know

there was no "stay in the car".

Why did he not let the police handle it like they told him to?

In fact, they didn't. After the "we don't need you to do that" he broke off and was returning to his car when attacked. If you had the court records, you would know that.

Because he felt he needed to do what his racist mind told him to do and when i
Martin didn't act as he should be killed Martin. Blame the victim and defend the shooter is part of sick gun culture!

There is no evidence of him being a racist. In fact, the FBI investigated for over a year to find a civil rights violation. They found just the opposite. Here is a question, can a mixed race person be a racist? Look up Sherman Ware. http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/
Oh wait, Cenk and the other dim bulbs at TYT didn't mention that?

[upaloopa]

18. You know we all see what we want to see

How people can take Zimmerman's side is beyond me. He wasn't a racist but he was compelled to go after a black kid in a hoodie. What made Zimmie think Martin didn't belong there in that complex? He was a fucking racist who saw a black kid in a hoodie in a mostly white neighborhood and decided to chase him down! Get a fucking clue!
Remind me not to use your sources when I want the truth!

[clffrdjk]

21. Proof?

"Remind me not to use your sources when I want the truth!"
Well at this point any source would be better than what you have provided but if you are going to use a newspaper to site this please make sure the writer didn't just make it up.

[gejohnston]

34. Yes you do only see what you want to see.

How people can take Zimmerman's side is beyond me.

It isn't about taking sides, it is about the truth. John Adams said it best:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Adams#Boston_Massacre_Trial
I will discuss more below.

He wasn't a racist but he was compelled to go after a black kid in a hoodie. What made Zimmie think Martin didn't belong there in that complex?

According to him, he saw guy that looked like he was in his late teens or early 20s in between houses, looking in the windows, in the rain.

He was a fucking racist who saw a black kid in a hoodie in a mostly white neighborhood and decided to chase him down! Get a fucking clue!

Most of Sanford is white, but 20 percent of middle income development where he lived were people of color, including Zimmerman's neighbor and Zimmerman himself who is mixed race.

Remind me not to use your sources when I want the truth!

We told you the truth as it is best known. Yes there was evidence the jury didn't see, but I saw during the evidence hearing.

In case you didn't catch where I'm coming from in the 10A post, here is the full picture. Logical consistency, intellectual honesty is very important. The truth is also very important. The truth is what it is, regardless of where it lands. It is what it is. I detest hypocracy, dishonesty, and bullshit. That is what the media deals in. There is no difference between Sean Hannity and Cenk Uyger as far as I am concerned. I detest them both equally for the same reason.
I also don't like injustice, even when it happens to someone I may not like. There was a poster, now banned, that accused me of being an anti government right winger because I had a problem with a FBI agent shooting a 14 year old in the back with a sub-machine gun. In his view, it was OK since he didn't like his parents or his parent's politics. Let me make perfectly clear:
all injustice is wrong, even when it happens to people we don't like
I don't like racists who are white or any other color.
I detest the "It's OK if my side does it, but not the other guy."
It is either right or it is wrong. Period.

[clffrdjk]

16. Yea you need to spend more time reading the court records and spend less time reading

The biggest news story of the year ( or rather most sensationalized)

[upaloopa]

17. The court records don't have all the facts

Much of what happened was not admitted but Zimmerman's bull shit account was!

[clffrdjk]

19. Lol so who does?

What evidence do you have that was not submitted to the court?

[gejohnston]

26. where are they?

They are in the imaginations of ambulance chasers, who are proven liars, out to make a buck. Those ambulance chasers hired a PR firm to knownly smear someone by falsely calling him a racist to get a wrongful death suit. As Talk Left puts it:

The legacy of this case will be that the media never gets it right, and worse, that a group of lawyers, with the aid of a public relations team, who had a financial stake in the outcome of pending and anticipated civil litigation, were allowed to commandeer control of Florida's criminal justice system, in pursuit of a divisive, personal agenda.

Their transformation of a tragic but spontaneous shooting into the crime of the century, and their relentless demonization of the person they deemed responsible, not for a tragic killing, but for "cold-blooded murder," has called into question the political motives and ethics of the officials serving in the Executive branch of Florida's government, ruined the career of other public officials, turned the lives of the Zimmerman family, who are as innocent as their grieving clients, into a nightmare, and along the way, set back any chance of a rational discussion of the very cause they were promoting, probably for years.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/7/14/145748/759/Colo_News/The-Legacy-of-the-George-Zimmerman-Trial
Oh, and Mr. Crump:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/7/11/22341/3139/crimenews/Benjamin-Crump-Who-Screamed-Doesn-t-Matter

[Packerowner740]

38. Would his racist mind allow him to have

A black business partner, a black girlfriend and a black grandmother?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

47. "Beards"?

[Packerowner740]

48. Wtf

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. The need by some to impose the worst motives absent evidence or against observed evidence

contrary to their supposition will lead them to suggest ever more absurd theories. I used quotation marks to speak in the voice of those in the grip of cognitive dissonance assuming they might suggest Zimmerman had a black business partner and a black girlfriend simply to mask his racism. "Beard" (you may already know this) describes a female wife or girlfriend kept by a gay man for the purpose of maintaining a public façade of heterosexuality for the sake of so-called propriety.

[Packerowner740]

50. Learn something new every day.

[sarisataka]

22. A simple consideration of numbers

Though the data is shaky, approximately 1-2% of the population are ordinary gun carriers. A very small proportion commit violent crime.

Around 10% of the population have criminal records. A small to moderate percentage have violent history.

The highest risk would be the overlap area of these groups, criminals who carry guns. The next highest risk would be criminals in general. After that, would come gun carriers who have the potential to cause great harm. Lastly would be noncriminal people who do not have guns. While the least likely to be dangerous the risk is measurable.

This should hold true regardless of the age or ethnicity of our hypothetical person. Unfortunately people do not carry signs to tell you what group they belong to...

[ileus]

24. How much thought did you put into this?

Probably not enough.....how many black kids are shot buy black kids EVERY day?

Or how many black folks are shot by police every week?


I'd dare to say the numbers are far greater than two.



Going by your logic Black folks need to fear other blacks 500x more at the very least.

[upaloopa]

28. You know in my 68 years I have known of lots of violence

I lived in one of the highest gang violence neighborhoods in Los Angeles. During opening week of school we could hear the gun shots outside our apartment building of the kids going through gang initiation.
My house in Ohio was on the the national crime registry. Every six months I had to fill out an FBI report listing what crimes were done to us during that period. My neighbors would shoot holes into our front windows.
I am a Vietnam veteran. I have known gun violence.
You don't need to school me!

[ileus]

29. So those gunshots outside your apartments were legal concealed carriers?

Fact blacks are shot by other Blacks way more (500x? good estimate? maybe way low?) than legal conceal carriers.

Fact blacks are shot by cops (500x? good estimate? maybe a tad low?) way more than legal conceal carriers.

You asked who would you fear if you were a young black person....I gave two pretty easy examples of who they should fear most.

[upaloopa]

30. The gangs didn't shoot other gang members. They shot anyone but. Initiation required you to shoot

someone. Only in a gang turf war did they shoot each other which wasn't often.
You live for numbers.
Consider what is going through the minds of Black teens in FL?

[SQUEE]

44. So, you decry the medias demonization of black youth as criminals

Yet, give the same media a pass as they paint legal and vetted concealed carriers as vigilantes and extremists living in fear of the boogie man that the media has created... Black teens that are now being propagandized by the media that they are a hunted and despised target.. who they are irrationally fearing, and who they should rightfully be wary of is the more important question.

[hack89]

45. Black teens know that other black teens and the cops are the biggest dangers.

they understand very well the world they live in.

[hack89]

36. The race of the gun owner is a bigger concern

Over 90% of black murder victims are killed by other blacks. Just like the majority of white victims are killed by other whites. Interracial murder is not the norm in America.

Cops would be number two on the list of people to fear.