Atlanta woman using ‘stand your ground’ defense found guilty of murder

[SecularMotion]

An Atlanta woman who used Georgia’s “stand your ground” law as her defense was found guilty of murder Friday by a Fulton County jury.

Shakeithia Wheeler, 32, was convicted on charges of felony murder, aggravated assault and weapons offenses, Fulton County District Attorney Paul L. Howard Jr.’s office announced today. She was sentenced to life plus eight years in prison.

Wheeler admitted to fatally shooting 28-year-old Charles Roberson on May 3, 2009, in the parking lot of her Verdant Drive apartment complex in southwest Atlanta, the news release said.

However, she said she believed that she had the right to do so under the “stand your ground” law.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/atlanta-woman-using-stand-your-ground-defense-foun/nfqfJ/

[blueridge3210]

1. And your thoughts on this would be?

I thought the gun control types said that the "stand your ground" defense was an automatic "get out of jail free" card and that all someone had to do was say "I was in fear". What are your thoughts on this issue?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. I'm going out on a limb here

and first guess that 'Shakeithia Wheeler' is black - SYG hasn't proven to be nearly as effective for black defendants as it has for white ones. And second, if you read the article, she inserted herself into a fight after first opening fire (and hitting a bystander to boot). She heard an argument outside, saw her brother and another guy in a verbal altercation, and opened fire at the other guy, it looks like, claiming she feared for her brother. She missed, hitting someone else, then joined in the argument, and THEN fatally shot the guy, who was unarmed.

[blueridge3210]

3. Do you have data to support

the claim that SYG or any self defense law is less effective for black defendants? Just curious. My other point was that much of the opposition to SYG was that it allowed the shooter to simply claim "I was in fear" and be immune from prosecution. This story would seem to indicate that is not the case.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. I didn't keep links, but the data was widely reported

in the wake of recent trials by various talking heads on MSNBC, and I didn't see anyone challenge them on it. You'd think if it wasn't 'good' data, pro-gun types would have been all over them being 'liars'.

As to your second point, I think that "I was in fear" by itself isn't enough, the facts on the ground have to be vague enough to allow people to at least pretend to believe it. As we've seen for decades with police, it's 'best' to add 'I thought I saw a gun' or 'He reached for his waistband' or 'he tried to grab my gun' when you want to shoot someone and get away with it.

[Bazinga]

6. take a look at this if you're interested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172129191

I'd be interested to hear what you think about it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

7. I think it means

there must be some specific wording distinction somewhere that I missed that means you're comparing different numbers than the people on tv were. Racking my brains, I vaguely recall the word 'justified' being part of what they talked about at the time, so maybe they included more than just SYG cases? I'm not sure, but obviously since the numbers come up different, you and they must be talking about apples and oranges, or at least oranges and tangerines.

[Bazinga]

14. That's definitely a possibility.

Honestly I didn't listen to any of MSNBC's analysis. They are probably better than FOX, but really, who could tell the difference anymore? If they were talking about all cases of justified homicide, then they are only taking about those cases already adjudicated and deemed justified. It would seem that the acquittal rates of all claims to self-defense (and SYG in particular) are more germane to this discussion.

In any case, I provided the raw data for anyone to draw their own conclusions. You claimed that "SYG hasn't proven to be nearly as effective for black defendants as it has for white ones," and the analysis certainly doesn't support that claim

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

15. Someone slightly downthread

seems to have remembered those claims better than I do and points out that the numbers to which I was referring apparently refer specifically to cases in which the victim and defendant were of different racial composition. He or she then makes the point that since you're dealing with a subset of cases, that the numbers might move more as more cases come along.

So apparently I should have said 'don't work as well for black shooting whites than whites shooting blacks' or something more along those lines.

[Bazinga]

16. If you reread my analysis, I included all of those subsets.

Specifically I compared white-on-black to black-on-white, and the comparison failed statistical significance. In fact, the black-on-white acquittal rate was higher.

The only significant result was comparing the race of the victim. Put plainly, and in your terminology, SYG appears to be working better for those who shoot blacks than those who shoot whites. It was this comparison that gleaned the most attention from the talking heads because it is obviously the most inflammatory.

This is definitely an injustice, but again, it does not support the conclusion that perpetrators are convicted or acquitted because of their race.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

18. Yes, it sounds like

the race of the victim was probably the thing they focused on, then.

[hack89]

9. In Florida SYG favors the shooter regardless of race and blacks have a high rate of acquittal

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

The bigger issue is that the "data" you mention was focused on a tiny fraction of SYG cases, namely Black on White /White on Black to "prove" their point. In reality, interracial murder is uncommon - blacks shoot blacks and whites shoot whites. Since the number of such cases small, it only takes one or two convictions to produce large changes in conviction percentages - in other words the sample size is not large enough to produce statistically significant results.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

10. aha

so it was an apples to oranges thing.

But was it 'one or two' cases? I'm sure it was a smaller statistical universe, but was it really as small as you suggest?

The overall statistical universe of all shooting cases in Florida in any given year is actually pretty small as it is.

[hack89]

12. Look at the link I sent you

it has hundreds of case that can be sorted by race of shooter and victim. You can see what a small proportion of the total cases interracial SYG shootings are.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

11. And, btw, 'data' is 'data'.

You don't get to put scare quotes around it just because you don't like it.

[hack89]

13. Except they never actually presented hard numbers

we discussed it in length when it came out. Lots of percentages but no actual numbers.

[gejohnston]

17. not actually true

it hasn't proven, simply claimed by race baiters who don't like SYG by using selected cases that were not self defense. If it were true, then the same race bias would exist in duty to retreat, some would argue more so. Come to think of it, I saw a debate where that was actually argued. The argument did not justify lethal force under any self defense or defense of others theories.
I do tend to think that she honestly believed that she could legally do what she did given since that is how SYG is often described by bloggers, MSM, and cable infotainment who are too lazy, stupid, and unprofessional to bother to fact check press releases handed to them.
Once again, I blame the media's dishonesty and incompetence, not the law.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

19. What's not actually true?

Are you addressing the same thing as the other posters and I have been discussing?

We seem to have clarified that the numbers are that disparities in trial outcome exist as a result of the race of the victim, not the race of the shooter as I had originally misrecalled.

[gejohnston]

20. Yes I am

If the facts of the trial are as reported, the race of the individuals involved doesn't matter. It was clearly not self defense nor was it a case of defense of others.
Each case is decided on specific facts based on presented evidence and how they compare to the law. The idea of ignoring those facts and explaining it as race is an insult to the the the jury since that is attacking their integrity and accusing them of being racist, which is one of the worst things you can be in the US, with no evidence.

The Tampa study reflects what is known about criminal attacks reported in the FBI UCR. According the UCR, the vast majority of criminal attacks are intra race. When it comes to inter race violence, there are something like three percent more black on white crimes than white on black crimes. If the Tampa Bay study shows that there were slightly more white defenders against blacks than vis versa. That is consistent with Uniform Crime Report. I dispute that it is only because of the race of the dead person as a determining factor. That does not mean I don't think racism or race bias still doesn't exist, because it does (especially gender and race bias in sentencing) but it isn't the 1950s anymore, we have come a very long way since then.
When it comes to self defense cases, the dead person is not always the victim. If someone gets shot because they are violently attacking someone, they are hardly a victim.

[ileus]

4. I guess she should have had a better understanding of the Self Defense law.

Any righteous self defense shooting should have resulted in a not guilty verdict.

I suppose she learned you don't just go around shooting people for the fun of it.

[Eleanors38]

8. So SYG isn't a license to kill? I knew that. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. In fairness, I think the argument against SYG is

"If a person knows they can claim SYG they will be enticed to resort to violence where they would not if the law were stricken."

However, I would counter the same argument could be made of the insanity plea or any other form of self-defense law.

[Eleanors38]

22. I agree, but I don't see some idiot, contemplating misuse of a gun,

thinking in advance: "Why, I'll just invoke SYG later on & get off." But an attorney might throw that out before a judge, and get a ruling of "ball."