Arizona house so full of guns, it’s a miracle the 3-year-old only now shot himself

[n2doc]

By Travis Gettys
Monday, May 12, 2014 8:54 EDT

Investigators found nearly two dozen guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition lying around the Arizona home of a 3-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself earlier this year.

The boy apparently pulled a small chair up to a counter where his mother was working on a laptop computer March 3 and found a .32-caliber semi-automatic pistol.

The weapon was in an ankle holster that exposed the gun’s trigger, which police said “could easily be pulled by almost anyone.”

The boy did pull the trigger and shot himself in the abdomen. He underwent emergency surgery and survived the shooting.

more

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/12/arizona-house-so-full-of-guns-its-a-miracle-the-3-year-old-only-now-shot-himself/

[randys1]

1. endless needless death and maiming will continue until they grow up

[Eleanors38]

2. Childhood accidents via guns are lower than electrocution,

drowning, and other categorized causes, according to the National Safety Council, and have been falling faster than those other causes.

[randys1]

3. Guns are toys for childish playtime.

[Eleanors38]

13. Actually not. But have a good day.

[upaloopa]

5. I never understand this kind of argument.

Who gives a shit it gun accidents are lower than electricity accidents. They exist and that is enough reason to be concerned.
If you are one of our gun enthusiasts I can understand the need to care about your gun rights more than children being harmed by guns so much so that you can trivialize them. That's another reason to get rid of some folks guns!

[upaloopa]

7. I put that line in there just to see what reply I would get.

Obvious your main interest is to hang on to your guns.

[IronGate]

9. The comment was just flame-bait?

Did you have any doubt? That's his favorite tactic on the firearms issue.
For someone who doesn't want to discuss firearms policy, he sure does make a lot of posts in this group.

[upaloopa]

11. No here is my ideas.

Kids were shot breaking into a garage. What they did did not deserve the death penalty. The guy who shot them felt he was within his rights. I think he should not have had a gun. He felt the junk in his garage was worth the lives of the kids.

Kids were shot playing loud music. The shooter felt the same as the garage incident.
If you think you should shoot people because you can you should not have guns.
Most people who have guns for defense are fearful. That makes them dangerous. They react out of fear. They should not have guns.
I am not going to debate you. I don't like our expanding gun culture.

I'm am not going to spend time "debating" your talking points.

[Eleanors38]

14. "who gives a s---?" Obviously the OP & perhaps you.

The posts controller/banners put up are about gun accidents, not electrocution.

You can take your thinly-veiled, DU-approved insults and put them in a lock box so other children don't have to see them.

[upaloopa]

15. Now everything you don't like is an insult.

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

It isn't meant that way. Try seeing life out from behind a gun!
On edit:
Your attempt to shame people who disagree with your gun culture is the same thing you accuse me of.

[jimmy the one]

16. false dichotomy

eleanors: Childhood accidents via guns are lower than electrocution, drowning, .. and have been falling faster than those other causes.

Observe the higher rates for accidental firearm deaths in the states (if link fails, insert 'all injury', 'unintentional', 'firearm', and for age <1 to 85+:
http://wisqars.cdc.gov:8080/cdcMapFramework/mapModuleInterface.jsp

States with stricter gun control predominantly have the lowest accidental firearm death rates. Fact, Jack. And vice versy. So say 'thank you guncontrol states' for what you refer to as 'falling faster then those other causes'.
Almost all children's homes have access to electric, as well as e-accessible in schools & public areas, so your argument leaks right there.

eleanors: Childhood accidents via guns are lower than electrocution, drowning, .. and have been falling faster than those other causes.

THANK YOU GUN CONTROL STATES FOR RATES WHICH HAVE BEEN FALLING FASTER THAN THOSE OTHER CAUSES.

[Straw Man]

17. Fact? Jack?

States with stricter gun control predominantly have the lowest accidental firearm death rates. Fact, Jack.

You mean like stand-your-ground Florida? And permitless-open-carry Wisconsin? They rank among the lowest, along with your preferred candidates like New York and New Jersey. But gun-unfriendly California and won't-issue Illinois only achieve the second rank of safety, tied with ... Arizona? Utah? The two states that are tied with Alaska for last place in the Brady Campaign's ranking of state "gun safety" laws?

The worst thing about picking cherries is that they want them with the stems on. I thought it was for freshness, but it's for weight.

[jimmy the one]

21. predominance

prev jto: States with stricter gun control predominantly have the lowest accidental firearm death rates. Fact, Jack.

straw man: You mean like stand-your-ground Florida? And permitless-open-carry Wisconsin? They rank among the lowest, along with your preferred candidates like New York and New Jersey. But gun-unfriendly California and won't-issue Illinois only achieve the second rank of safety, tied with ... Arizona? Utah? The two states that are tied with Alaska for last place in the Brady Campaign's ranking of state "gun safety" laws?

You need to review what the word 'predominantly' means. You cite 2 exceptions which were noticed & accounted for, ignoring the predominance of southern & Midwestern pro gun states which prove what I said, to be true.

By the way, Utah, florida, & Wisconsin all have child access prevention laws (CAP laws), but Arizona don't.

[gejohnston]

22. I'm sure every gun owning Floridian

including the dim bulb former New Yorkers who think it is their "Constitutional right" to run over manatee in their boats docked to their fucking McMansions know about the $500 fine to leave a gun unattended around kids.

[Straw Man]

23. Could you put a number on "predominantly"?

Could we talk about what safety legislation the various states have? For example, in New York there is no state-mandated training, safety or otherwise, for a CCW. Could we talk about accident rates per firearm-owning household rather than per raw population figures? Could we talk about how we could accurately assess the impact of gun-control legislation on accident rates? Your map doesn't even come close to doing that.

You cite 2 exceptions which were noticed & accounted for, ignoring the predominance of southern & Midwestern pro gun states which prove what I said, to be true.

I believe I cited six exceptions, and that was by no means comprehensive. You "noticed and accounted for" nothing. You have a mass of data there that you have digested whole and then spewed out some vague and unsupported causal assertions. If that's what you call "fact," I'll beg to differ.

[jimmy the one]

24. predominance explained

straw man: I believe I cited six exceptions, and that was by no means comprehensive.

You cited 2 exceptions which fit the lowest accidental firearm fatality tier;
But I disagree with your tailing, your list was essentially comprehensive, since no other pro gun state could be included in the lowest tier, & only possibly Virginia &/or Iowa in the 2nd lowest tier, imo. The 'data not available' states might give you one or two more (I doubt it but maybe vt nh or maine might squeak in).

straw man: You "noticed and accounted for" nothing. You have a mass of data there that you have digested whole and then spewed out some vague and unsupported causal assertions. If that's what you call "fact," I'll beg to differ.

Below are the four tiers & the number of either 1) pro gun or 2) guncontrol states which are in those tiers:

Level ........................... Pro gun states ................. Guncontrol States

1 (safest) ........................... 2 ....................................... 4
2 ....................................... 2 (3 w Va) ......................... 9 - some may be neutralish)
3 (more hazardous) ............. 9 - 11 (some neutral) .......... 0
4 Most dangerous ................ 11 ..................................... 0

For the two lower tiers 1 & 2 (safest stats) we have 4 or 5 pro gun states compared to 13 guncontrol states, including 'leaning guncontrol', and a couple neutral, included here since where else to put them. So about 5 progun to 10 gc.
For the two more hazardous tiers, we have 20 pro gun states compared with zero guncontrol states.
Do you think you are beginning to understand what 'predominance' means?

I believe I cited six exceptions, and that was by no means comprehensive.

You cited two pro gun exceptions which fit the lowest tier, Florida & Wisconsin. Arizona & Utah are not in the lowest, but in the second lowest. So maybe you could claim 4, but where do you get 6?

where do you get 6?: You mean like stand-your-ground Florida? And permitless-open-carry Wisconsin? They rank among the lowest, along with your preferred candidates like New York and New Jersey. But gun-unfriendly California and won't-issue Illinois only achieve the second rank of safety, tied with ... Arizona? Utah? The two states that are tied with Alaska for last place in the Brady Campaign's ranking of state "gun safety" laws?

I can only wonder why you insisted on inserting 'stand your ground Florida', when speaking of accidental firearm death rates, as if the shooter accidentally killed himself or someone else for, or while, 'standing his ground'?

[Straw Man]

28. Your castle is made of sand, Jimmy.

If you're asserting a causal connection between "guncontrol" states and accident rates, how do you explain the fact that California, Illinois, Utah, and Arizona are in the same tier? That's four anomalies right there, and California is a rather significant anomaly, considering its population and the aggressiveness of its gun control. The OP is about Arizona -- remember? "Oh if only they had California's gun laws, this kind of thing wouldn't happen." Except that it happens with comparable frequency in California, gun laws notwithstanding. Poof! There goes your premise.

Florida? Why did I mention "stand your ground"? To identify Florida as quite the opposite of a "guncontrol" state. I'm sure you would agree that "stand your ground" isn't the only thing that tags Florida as a gun-friendly state, but it's the best-known one. Clear? You didn't make any reference to what kind of gun control you are using for your designation of states. Don't blame me if your brush is too broad and your axe too dull.

As I already informed you, there is no correlation between being a "guncontrol state" and being a safety-oriented state. The only safe storage requirement in New York applies to a firearm owner sharing residence with a "prohibited person," one with a history of felony convictions or involuntary commitment for mental health: no provision for households with children. New York has no state-mandated training for CCW. Some counties require a basic NRA course, such as Home Firearms Safety, but nowhere is that codified in law. And as I have already pointed out, rabidly gun-friendly Arizona is demonstrably as safe as rabidly gun-unfriendly California.

When do we get to talk about accident rate per-household-with-firearm, as opposed to per-raw-population?

[jimmy the one]

30. nyc has more stringent storage laws

straw man: Your castle is made of sand, Jimmy. If you're asserting a causal connection between "guncontrol" states and accident rates, how do you explain the fact that California, Illinois, Utah, and Arizona are in the same tier? That's four anomalies right there,

Arizona made it to lowest tier for 2004-2010; Arizona, for more recent 2008-2010, is at level two, while California is still at level one, so you've lost Arizona as a 'lowest' argue point.
(Use same wisqars but designate the years 2008-10 in the clickon dropdown. 'No data available' for Utah, Wisconsin.)

The OP is about Arizona -- remember? "Oh if only they had California's gun laws, this kind of thing wouldn't happen." Except that it happens with comparable frequency in California, gun laws notwithstanding. Poof! There goes your premise.

Nope, there goes your premise, based upon more recent data. Slip slidin' away.

strawman: Florida? Why did I mention "stand your ground"? To identify Florida as quite the opposite of a "guncontrol" state.

Double double talk talk. I'll ask again, what has 'SYG' to do with accidental firearm death rates?

strawman: The only safe storage requirement in New York applies to a firearm owner sharing residence with a "prohibited person," one with a history of felony convictions or involuntary commitment for mental health: no provision for households with children.

erm, wrong, wrt our discussion: New York City New York City requires any lawful owner or custodian of a firearm to render his or her weapon inoperable by use of a safety locking device while the weapon is out of his or her immediate possession or control. New York City also requires the inclusion of a safety locking device with the transfer of a firearm. The city prohibits the transfer of any firearm without a “safety locking device,” defined as “a design adaptation or attachable accessory that will prevent the use of the weapon by an unauthorized user.” In addition, no person may obtain a firearm without purchasing or obtaining a safety locking device at the same time. http://smartgunlaws.org/safe-storage-gun-locks-policy-summary/

[Straw Man]

32. Keep movin' those goalposts, Jimmy.

I used the dataset you provided. Now you want to change the search terms. I'll give you a tip: "2008-2010" is not "more recent" than "2004-2010." They both end at 2010. It's just a smaller slice of the same data. Would you rather base your conclusion on a larger slice or a smaller slice? Ask a statistician.

Florida? Why did I mention "stand your ground"? To identify Florida as quite the opposite of a "guncontrol" state.

Double double talk talk. I'll ask again, what has 'SYG' to do with accidental firearm death rates?

You're the one who proposed the dichotomy of "guncontrol" states vs. gun-friendly states. I would suggest to you that it's a ridiculously broad dichotomy based on a whole grab-bag of legislation, much of which has nothing to do with "gun safety." Thank you for proving my point.

erm, wrong, wrt our discussion: New York City New York City requires any lawful owner or custodian of a firearm to render his or her weapon inoperable by use of a safety locking device while the weapon is out of his or her immediate possession or control.

Erm, our discussion was state rates. Remember? That lovely little map you provided? If you want to do municipalities, you'll have to come up with an entirely different data set.

In any case, the people of New York City may constitute a very large portion of New York State's population, but very few of them are gun owners. Therefore, NYC's safe storage laws are insignificant in a discussion of New York State's firearms accident rates. It's that pesky old demographic thing again.

[jimmy the one]

33. undeniably wrong

link: New York City requires any lawful owner or custodian of a firearm to render his or her weapon inoperable by use of a safety locking device while the weapon is out of his or her immediate possession or control.

strawman: Erm, our discussion was state laws. Remember? That lovely little map you provided? If you want to do municipalities, you'll have to come up with an entirely different data set.

You're kidding? The discussion was of states with lower accidental firearm death rates; NYC is in New York state. New York state accidental firearm fatality rates are influenced largely by stats derived from NYC metro area. The figures/data on the map include of course, the data from NYC itself & metro area.

this you wrote, which applies to over 7 million new Yorkers, over a third of NY population, was undeniably WRONG: The only safe storage requirement in New York applies to a firearm owner sharing residence with a "prohibited person," one with a history of felony convictions or involuntary commitment for mental health: no provision for households with children.

strawman: In any case, the people of New York City may constitute a very large portion of New York State's population, but very few of them are gun owners. Therefore, NYC's safe storage laws are insignificant in a discussion of New York State's firearms accident rates. It's that pesky old demographic thing again.

The relative scarcity of firearms in NYC redounds on the accidental firearm death rate for New York state as a whole; if you measured only counties outside of NYC, I bet accidental firearm death rates would be comparable with a progun state, which would demonstrate the efficacy of gun laws & may issue ccw in new York city.
Violent crime rates in NYC metro area of course will be higher than NY outside NYC, since it's an urbanized area, & cannot be meaningfully compared with rural areas, guns or not.

[Straw Man]

34. A meaningless truism.

The relative scarcity of firearms in NYC redounds on the accidental firearm death rate for New York state as a whole; if you measured only counties outside of NYC, I bet accidental firearm death rates would be comparable with a progun state, which would demonstrate the efficacy of gun laws & may issue ccw in new York city.

States, or counties, or cities, or whatever, with more gun ownership per capita will have a higher gun accident rate per capita. That's why I asked when we'll talk about rates per gun-owning household rather than per raw population. You're trying to argue that it is somehow the effect of "safety" legislation. That's ridiculously broad and unsupported. All it suggests is that it's not possible to have firearms accidents with no firearms. Is that your whole point? Talk about meaningless.

CCW laws are irrelevant unless we're talking only about accidents with pistols. We're not.

[jimmy the one]

25. ccw not what it seems, J

straw man: For example, in New York there is no state-mandated training, safety or otherwise, for a CCW.

And Johnston on another thread claims new York state counties are effectively shall issue: you are obviously ignorant of the laws.. New York and California issue by county, each county does what it wants. Most NY counties are defacto shall issue, and about half of California's counties are..

So explain to me Johnston, why new York & California, with maybe half their counties 'doing what it want's' regarding concealed carry, have a small percentage of what similar urbanized pro gun shall issue states have?:

2012 stats:
California – 35,000 (may issue ccw permits) with 38 million peeps:
Florida – 985,143 with 19.5 million peeps
New York – Published data indicates that 93,028 licenses ... 19.6 million peeps
New Jersey – 32,000 ... ~ 9 million peeps
Michigan (shall issue) – 321,599 .... ~ 10 million peeps
Texas (shall iss) – 524,000 ... ~ 26.5 million Texans
Tennessee (shall iss) – 376,050
http://www.inquisitr.com/444177/concealed-carry-permit-statistics-by-state-report/#iLeQ4xA0epqSMAdj.99

state.......................ccw % of pop... violcrime rate.. murder rate
California: CCW permit Rate = 0.1% ... 423 ........ 5.0
New York CCW permit rate = 0.5% .... 406 ........ 3.5
Texas CCW permit rate ...= 2.0% ..... 408 ...... 4.4
Florida CCW permit rate .. = 5.1% ........ 487 ...... 5.2
New Jersey CCW permit rate = 0.35% .... 290 ...... 4.4
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/njcrimn.htm (individual states at bottom of link)

So Johnston, pro gun shall issue Florida's ccw permiting rate (accd'g to this website) is 50 times higher than californias, wha' happen to half california's counties being shall issue? maybe peeps don't want?
Texas ccw rate is 4 times higher than new York state (where Johnston says counties are mostly shall issue), & Florida's is 10 times higher than new York state. Looks like may issue states of calif & new York, are not what Johnston thinks they are - shall issue at heart.

[Straw Man]

26. Population density, Jimmy.

It's very simple. The New York counties that are "defacto shall issue" tend to be sparsely populated rural counties.

There. Was that so hard to understand?

[jimmy the one]

27. defacto shall issue, hah

strawman: The New York counties that are "defacto shall issue" tend to be sparsely populated rural counties.

Well aware; so you agree then, that New York state is essentially a may issue state, not as Johnston implied?

.. and what about California? Johnston's similar contention there, doesn't hold water either, does it?

[Straw Man]

29. Hah hah.

Well aware; so you agree then, that New York state is essentially a may issue state, not as Johnston implied?

However you choose to look at it -- I'm not Johnston and I didn't make the claim. By population, it's essentially "may issue"; by administrative units, it's essentially "shall issue." What is not supported is your assertion that "peeps don't want it." About 40% of New York's population lives in NYC, which has been de facto "won't issue" since the Sullivan Law was passed in 1911. If NYC residents were able to get handgun permits (without being rich, celebrities, or both), I'm sure you'd see a dramatic change in the numbers.

[Jenoch]

35. I'll say this about jimmy,

in all of his posts, he uses 40 words even when 5 words would be fine.

[SQUEE]

20. Can I get a little dressing for this word salad..

Why Jimmy, why? stop killing E-trees

[itsrobert]

31. Is there an equal number of electrical outlets to guns in the United States?

Not sure that point of comparing electrocution and gun accidents. Sounds like your statistics might be a little bias

[sarisataka]

10. I can think

of some charges the parents should face.

I do question the headline... how many people should he have shot?

[ileus]

18. That's why I recommend all firearms except your EDC be locked up.

If it's not on your person for self defense then lock it up.

[Bazinga]

19. Yep, there's only two safe places for a gun...

In a safe and in a holster.