My support for gun ownership rights is not universal and unqualified.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

After years of surveying the anti-gun rhetoric I have come to realize that some people -- many people -- are not fit to own a gun. They are paranoid delusional, authoritarian, violent-minded, hateful towards opposing facts, vile to those not like them, disrespectful of basic civil rights, confrontational, quivering with anger, sexually obsessed and generally just...MEAN! They seem to thrive on negative emotions. It's an obviously unsettled state of mind and it cannot be healthy for them or those around them. I think it is safe to say the only reason they do NOT act on their hostile impulses is because they are unarmed and as such they should be kept so.

That the group I am referring to happens to be the anti-gun crowd itself. They argue against universal ownership and darned if they aren't right about it. Thankfully, though, for the most part (not counting David Brock, Michaels Moore and Bloomberg and Chris Dorner) they seem to keep themselves in gun-free zones.

It seems a shame to write this. I think everyone should have the confidence to not be restricted from anything in life but -- in spite of the seeming satire of this post, I'm not joking -- they should remain disarmed. So many within the anti-RKBA community seem so disturbed as to be disturbing. They are the best advocates for disarming those like them.

[Botany]

1. You have no shame

It is the guns. End of story.

[spin]

3. Firearms can also save lives. ...

My personal example is my mother.

She was walking home from work in the 1920s. A man who had been hiding behind some bushes rushed her. Fortunately she had a tiny S&W LadySmith revolver in her purse. She drew it and fired two shots over the head of her attacker. He ran.

I might be here to post this had she not been armed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. "I might be here to post this had she not been armed."

Sadly, I think such a statement -- that you wouldn't be here to make such a statement -- only incentivizes them.

[spin]

11. I seriously doubt that even the most ardent gun control advocates ...

wish to see a woman raped and killed so she doesn't raise a gun owning son.

[Duckhunter935]

4. talking point #2, very good

#2: TELL STORIES WITH IMAGES AND FEELINGS.

Our first task is to draw a vivid portrait and make an emotional connection. We should rely on
emotionally powerful language, feelings and images to bring home the terrible impact of gun violence.
Compelling facts should be used to back up that emotional narrative, not as a substitute for it.
WARNING:
Don’t break the power and undermine the value of emotionally powerful images and
feelings by appearing squeamish or apologetic in presenting them

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/748675/gun-violencemessaging-guide-pdf-1.pdf

[spin]

9. Very interesting document. ...

I skimmed the article and nowhere did it say that using insults to attack gun owners is a good idea.
Perhaps if more of the gun control advocates were to read this guideline, the level of the discussion over gun control would rise considerably here on DU.

I often said that both sides of the debate have good points to make. The best arguments for the gun control advocates are emotional. The best arguments for the RKBA group involve logic and facts. The guideline seems to agree with my view.

[Duckhunter935]

10. what I find interesting

I have not been able to find any NRA talking points the other side always cites. The only talking points I have found are on the ant-gun side, curious.

[Botany]

19. The best arguments for the RKBA group involve logic and facts.

R you serious?

U.S. Has More Guns – And Gun Deaths – Than Any Other Country, Study Finds

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/09/19/u-s-has-more-guns-and-gun-deaths-than-any-other-country-study-finds/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. What about nations that have stricter gun laws/fewer guns but higher homicide rates?

Is life somehow improved because people are being killed by other means?

[yurbud]

65. Which countries are those?

[gejohnston]

68. Brazil, Bermuda, Greenland, Mexico

USVI, British Virgian Islands, South Africa for starters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[yurbud]

69. a couple of those countries have other problems like weak law enforcement and extreme poverty

that complicate their usefulness for comparison to the US.

In Mexico, you could probably buy illegal guns from a cop more often than have them seized.

[gejohnston]

70. The problems we have the Western Europe doesn't

Only 15 percent of Mexico's murders are firearm related. Most gun murders in Mexico are cartels, who have machine guns, some smuggled through the southern border, some being made by the cartels themselves. In the US, criminals rarely go to gun stores and never go to gun shows, that was according to the DoJ funded Wright/Rossi study in the 1980s.

We have more gangs
We have more illegal drug use, creating revenue for gangs plus poor parenting associated with addiction
With more gangs, you have more gang wars
We have zoning ordnances that prevent not only front yard gardens, but also walkable neighborhoods and nearby jobs
that means we have more automobile use, and health problems associated with it. See lead in gasoline.
That also means our city cores are depopulatied and encouraged sprawl, resulting less connection to the people around them
We have more wealth inequality
Corporal punishment, ie spanking, is more socially acceptable here.
We are more materialistic, stuff replaces relationships and parenting, see the shooter/stabber. Mom and dad sucked as parents
We have more political corruption, especially in cities like Chicago, Detroit, NOLA, whole state of Florida, Oakland.

Each country or even city's problems are unique to that place. There are not one size fits all solutions. BTW, the murder rates were just as low if not lower than when they had no gun laws all in Europe.

[spin]

33. Of course we have more gun deaths. ...

There are an estimated 300,000,000 firearms in our nation and 80,000,000 people own them.

Our next door neighbor Mexico has extremely strong gun laws. I imagine you would love to see them passed here.

MEXICO CITY JOURNAL
At a Nation’s Only Gun Shop, Looking North in Disbelief

By DAMIEN CAVE
Published: July 24, 2012


MEXICO CITY — Juan García relinquished his cellphone, walked through two metal detectors, registered with a uniformed soldier — and then finally entered Mexico’s only legal gun store.

To anyone familiar with the 49,762 licensed gun dealers in the United States, or the 7,261 gun-selling pawn shops, the place looked less like a store than a government office. Customers waited on metal chairs near a fish tank to be called up to a window to submit piles of paperwork. The guns hung in drab display cases as if for decoration, with not a single sales clerk offering assistance.

***snip***

The 1917 Constitution written after Mexico’s bloody revolution, for example, says that the right to carry arms excludes those weapons forbidden by law or reserved for use by the military, and it also states that “they may not carry arms within inhabited places without complying with police regulations.”

The government added more specific limits after the uprisings in the 1960s, when students looted gun stores in Mexico City. So under current law, typical customers like Rafael Vargas, 43, a businessman from Morelos who said he was buying a pistol “to make sure I sleep better,” must wait months for approval and keep his gun at home at all times.

His purchase options are also limited: the largest weapons in Mexico’s single gun store — including semiautomatic rifles like the one used in the Aurora attack — can be bought only by members of the police or the military. Handgun permits for home protection allow only for the purchase of calibers no greater than .38, so the most exotic option in the pistol case here consisted of a Smith & Wesson revolver selling for $803.05.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/world/americas/in-mexico-a-restrictive-approach-to-gun-laws.html

We might agree that Mexico is a gun control advocates dream of utopia. Surely a nation with such gun laws must be a far safer place to live than the United States. After all gun control advocates often claim that guns are designed only for killing and if there were no or fewer guns available to civilians, the murder rate would surely decrease.

Perhaps not.

Mexico’s Violent Murder Rate Is More Than Twice That of USA
November 12, 2010 - 4:45 PM
By Edwin Mora

(CNSNews.com) – Individuals run a greater risk of being violently murdered in Mexico than in the United States, where the population is more than three times larger than its southern neighbor.

Mexico’s secretary of Interior, Francisco Blake Mora, said there currently are 12 violent homicides registered for every 100,000 Mexican residents, as reported in the Nov. 10 El Universal, a Spanish-language newspaper in Mexico.

In other words, about 1 in every 8,300 residents is violently murdered in Mexico.

***snip***

FBI data show that in the United States, “There were 5.0 murders per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009, an 8.1 percent decrease from the 2008 rate.”

That means that in 2009 there was 1 murder per 20,000 U.S. inhabitants. When compared to Mexico’s current rate of 1 murder per 8,300 Mexican residents, an individual runs a greater risk of being violently murdered in Mexico than in the United States.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/mexico-s-violent-murder-rate-more-twice-usa

[pablo_marmol]

37. Logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Spare us your faux grief.

Alcohol kills 4300 children annually from under-aged consumption. That's 4.3 Sandy Hooks a WEEK.

Where's your candlelight vigil for them or don't they count?

Edited to add -- If you think I am wrong in my premise please feel free to explain why you believe yourself to be competent and clear-headed enough to own a gun.

[Botany]

8. To deny that the proliferation of guns in America is not connected to a proliferation ....

... in gun deaths and tragedies is to deny reality. It is the guns. End of story.

BTW I have hunted and owned guns for years but I can also read cold hard facts
and figures about the costs to America by allowing this insane gun culture to keep
going on and on.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. "guns in America is not connected to a proliferation in gun deaths and tragedies is to deny reality.

Homicide rates in the US are declining and the overwhelming majority of gun violence is perpetrated by career criminals.

[spin]

15. The reality is that despite the skyrocketing sale of firearms in recent years ...

gun violence in our nation has NOT increased. In fact it has decrease significantly from the peak two decades ago.

Gun violence in US has fallen dramatically over past 20 years, Justice Dept. report finds
Tuesday May 7, 2013 12:50 PM

By Pete Williams, NBC News chief justice correspondent
Gun violence in America has fallen dramatically over the past two decades, and the number of murders committed with a firearm is down too, though guns are still by far the leading type of crime weapon, according to a new report from the Justice Department.

***snip***

Murders committed with a gun dropped 39 percent to 11,101 in 2011, from a high of 18,253 in 1993, according to the report.

Other crimes committed with guns were down even more sharply — from 1.53 million in 1993 to 467,300 in 2011, a drop of 70 percent, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/07/18108298-gun-violence-in-us-has-fallen-dramatically-over-past-20-years-justice-dept-report-finds?lite

[pablo_marmol]

38. Says you. An internet "sage" completely without credentials.

Not to be confused with award-winning liberal criminologists like this:

[Duckhunter935]

7. you must be more outraged by drunk driving deaths

A daily occurrence that kills many more than guns and you seem to not be very outraged by it. So what are you doing about it? Have you even made one post about this? Be honest now.

[Botany]

12. Way to change the subject!

Last edited Mon May 26, 2014, 01:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Is this an official NRA tactic? When you can't explain the cold hard facts and figures
about what the proliferation of guns in America causes, change the subject to drunk
driving.

The fact is a highly disturbed person was able to legally go out and buy guns and
ammunition and then let his inner demons out with bloody results.

BTW Jim is the man who taught me some about hunting, guns, and dogs as a kid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025001538

[Duckhunter935]

14. he also legally purchased a knife

to kill 50% of his victims, I guess they do not count as much.

Three victims were identified as Cheng Yuan Hong, 20 (left), and George Chen, 19 (right), who shared a lease with Rodger, but it's not known if the third vicitm, Waihan Wang, 20 (not pictured), was a roommate.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/deranged-santa-barbara-california-killer-tied-premeditated-youtube-video-reports-article-1.1804354#ixzz32qH7sTqD


Do not like the cold hard facts that alcohol kills several Sandy Hook numbers of children per week I see.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Either you care about lives or you don't?

People demand an "assault weapon" ban even though long rifles -- both single and semi -- only kill ~400 people annually. Yet under-aged drinking literally claims a hundred times more. Add in the domestic violence, sexual assaults, pathologies and DUIs that find their origin in alcohol and it's easy to see where the greater evil lies.

Every appeal for gun control tells us, "Remove this thing and we can end the suffering and save lives!" If ending human suffering and saving lives were truly the objective why not save 100 where only 1 could be saved?

I know why -- and so do you. Because the fallacy of the prohibition has already been proven. It's an obvious failure. But the GC movement isn't about actually saving lives. The pictures are just crass manipulation. It's about control. To hell with reality and to hell with the bodies of children, those-who-oppose must be brought to heel is the only possible rationale.

And that is why I wrote the OP.

[beevul]

18. You lot don't want "cold hard facts and figures".

Here, heres some cold hard facts and figures:


Some 100 million + Americans own over 300 million guns.

There are roughly 10 thousand firearm homicides.

There are roughly 20 thousand gun suicides.

If it was "the guns. End of story" as you claim it was, there would be MILLION of gun homicides and suicides every year.

But we both know there aren't.

So clearly its NOT the guns, since 99+ percent of people who own them aren't shooting others or killing themselves with them.

Still interested "cold hard facts and figures"?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Botany]

20. cold hard facts AND FIGURES

U.S. Has More Guns – And Gun Deaths – Than Any Other Country, Study Finds

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/09/19/u-s-has-more-guns-and-gun-deaths-than-any-other-country-study-finds/

[beevul]

21. Yeah, i didn't think you wanted to talk about the figures.

You guys don't want a "conversation", you want a monologue.

You're not going to get one, sorry.

[Botany]

22. FIGURES

A study by two New York City cardiologists found that the U.S. has 88 guns per 100 people and 10 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people — more than any of the other 27 developed countries they studied.

Japan, on the other hand, had only .6 guns per 100 people and .06 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people, making it the country with both the fewest guns per capita and the fewest gun-related deaths.

[beevul]

23. That doesn't make your case that "its the guns".

"Japan, on the other hand, had only .6 guns per 100 people and .06 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people, making it the country with both the fewest guns per capita and the fewest gun-related deaths."

I'd be careful hitching your wagon to japan, since its legal for police to beat a confession out of people there.

You do value civil liberties I assume, at least where the ones you agree with are concerned.

[Botany]

24. MORE GUNS PER CAPITA = MORE GUN DEATHS

So if you don't want to count Japan what about Ireland? Iceland?
Italy? The U.K.? Or any one of the 26 other nations that have less
guns and less gun deaths per capita.

[beevul]

25. We aren't those places, and we aren't going to be those places.

Clearly its NOT the guns, since 99+ percent of people who own them aren't shooting others or killing themselves with them.


No thoughts on that?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. In 2012 there are listed...

...466,078 murders (of all kinds). Since the US has about half of all the guns in private hands in the world, why doesn't the US have about 233,000 murders in 2012? Why is the murder rate here more 14 times lower?

[gejohnston]

31. Iceland has more guns per capita than

many US states, in fact it is tied with Germany with 15th in the world. When it comes to number of households with private firearms, the ranking is: Finland, US, Norway, Canada, Switzerland. France comes in at 25 percent, which is about the same as Florida.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
Also, a "study" by cardiologists about guns is unlikely to be peer reviewed by criminologists, and the few that have have been proven to be invalid. All of the studies funded by the DoJ and the LoC, including during the so called "research ban" has shown that there is no correlation of murders and suicide rates at all. The only difference is that the number of gun suicides vs rope suicides. Both are equally dead and tragic.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. Murder rate, United States: 4.8/100k/year. Japan 0.3/100k/year

Clearly something more than 'its the guns' going on here. (Ignoring suicides)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

52. In Japan...

...killing 11 people with a gun and then yourself is defined as suicide.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. That's a good point. Reporting rules between different nations is highly vexing.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

54. So true. n/t

[gejohnston]

55. actually, it is

11 involuntary suicides and one voluntary suicide. That is especially true when it applies to families.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

59. It apparently takes a bit longer than...

...the US has been around for a government to develop the concept of "involuntary suicide".

[pablo_marmol]

39. You can say that as often as you like - it's still a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[Eleanors38]

35. "You have no shame."

Really. The OP makes an argument about how the violent tendencies of some gun-controllers should disqualify them from owning guns, and you come back with...

A photo gallery of killed children?? And you aren't changing the subject??

And if killed children is really the subject, why do you not show such compassion for children killed by drunk drivers?

Talk some more about shame, particularly how it can be compartmentalized and adjusted so precisely.

[Duckhunter935]

2. I have noticed

that for quite while now. Some of the most vile name calling posts com from some on that side. There are a minority that will have a good back and forth discussion but most of the time they just sink to the penis joke, name calling crap. They ignore the GD TOS and when called on it say we are whining. One of the hosts from the other gun group ignores the SOP here and spams but blocks anyone they even think will not agree with them in the echo chamber.

Great post, I agree 100%

[SQUEE]

16. I comment regularly on the projection

The disturbing, vile and frankly macabre descriptions as well as the flippant referral to deaths, the insincere concern, and the power trip violent fantasies they have, as well as the hero worship...
Let's just save the stereotyping and outright bigotry for another post...

I am thankful everyday many of these posters are without access to gunz.

yup

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. I see what you did there.

[upaloopa]

26. Thanks for the insight into a gunner paradigm

You are a minority in there.
To you this is probably an insult. And to you not buying gunner talking points is avoiding facts. A gunner paradigm for sure!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Arguing facts -- if the anti-RKBA ever supplies them rather than hollow emotionalism --

is not the issue. It is the violent ideations, and unbalanced temperaments that make so many anti-RKBA'ers seemingly unfit to own guns.

[upaloopa]

40. Too bad you earned it

We have been trying to get you to see how the country feels about gun violence since Sandyhook and all you give back is self centered gunner bullshit.
It is going to get worse. People don't like your gun culture. Live with what you brought on yourself.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. "It is going to get worse."

Okay, so you have a big book of dirty words and Bloomberg's impotent bank account. Have you got anything that's actually useful or are you in it just for the catharsis?

[upaloopa]

42. I'm not going to play your game.

I live near Isla Vista. I work for the County of Santa Barbara Alcohol,Drug and Mental Health Dept.
We lived through a tragedy this weekend and many here are still involved.
You think you could get out from behind your selfish fetish and try to think for a minute what our gun culture is doing to this country?
You literally disgust me!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. You declare things will get worse but when asked how you claim I'm playing the game.

You should refrain from making emotional statements. That sort of unthinking, veiled language is exactly what I was referring to in the OP.

[upaloopa]

44. Don't you ever fucking tell me what to do!

Read this from my inbox this morning

A note to the County of Santa Barbara family...

Words cannot express our sadness over the events of Friday night. I know all in the County family join with me in offering our assistance to those impacted and stand ready and willing to support the healing of the friends and families of those killed and injured in Isla Vista. All should be proud of the County family and your work over the last several days to ensure support to our community members and fellow employees. The incredible outpouring of support and the willingness to jump in to do whatever necessary was inspiring.

I am thankful for the extraordinary and heroic actions of law enforcement officers to stop the violence, medical responders providing treatment to the injured and our mental health professionals working throughout the community to provide much needed support to all impacted.


The incident touches the County family in many ways and many of you may have a personal connection to those killed or injured. Therefore, I wanted all to be aware that counseling services are available at 805-893-4411. This line is staffed by many our own staff as well as community volunteers. In addition, a number has been set up to address general community questions at 805-893-3901. I will make all aware as additional resources may become available. Please know that I am also available to you to address your questions or concerns. Never hesitate to reach out to me, any member of my office, or your department head if anything is needed.

While joined in sorrow over these tragic events, we stand committed to the healing of the community of Isla Vista and all we serve.

Mona

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. Or?

First of all, "should" makes it a suggestion, not a command. Clear-headedness helps with discernment.

Second, it's actually good advice. You demand the power of law, which is the power to wield incorporated violence (read: GUNZ!). That sort of power should never be exercised based on emotionalism.

Third, seriously?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. What letter do they send out to those hurt by drugs and alcohol?

[upaloopa]

47. Sick!

[upaloopa]

49. You take it any way you want

Your opinion doesn't matter in the great circle of things

[beevul]

57. But yours does?

The CA shooter had an overinflated view of his opinion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. "Your opinion doesn't matter in the great circle of things"

And yours does?

[bravenak]

66. I had to post this to you since NU is locked out.

On Tue May 27, 2014, 09:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I'll take that as an admission they don't.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=146703

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Wow. Of all of NU's posts here, this one takes the cake in rudeness and insensitivity by accusing a user who works for Sta Barbara County (where the shootings recently happened) of ignoring drug/alcohol abuse while complaining about gun violence.

This kind of deflection has gotten users banned before. See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4818924

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue May 27, 2014, 10:11 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: plenty of cake to go around it seems.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I would also have voted to hide the post that started this thread. It's offensive and so are this poster's views.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I wrote a long explanation but i deleted it. Why waste that much time? Wow. This post is really really awful.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Jenoch]

50. If the now dead roommates had notified your department that they think their

roommate is psychotic, what could your department have done?

[upaloopa]

56. I am not part of the clinical or program staff

My guess is that the shooter was known to local authorities but as to services by our dept I don't know or nothing I could say if I did due to HIPPA

[gejohnston]

32. appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy

along with the many others prohibitionists/extreme control activists have along with appeals to emotion and disinformation. I have yet to see an argument based on logic and reason. Assuming we are a minority, that doesn't change the fact that the other side is intellectually bankrupt.

[ileus]

34. Well they are regressives....

I find it funny how stabbing deaths and running down bike riders is acceptable.

They're a rather odd bunch.

[Eleanors38]

36. I wonder if the 5 run over during SXSW rate on the Compassion Scale?

Maybe they'll call it a mass murder to pump up the yearly average, hoping no one notices the accused used an automatic Honda.

[stone space]

60. What laws would you suggest to take care of this problem?

Would a repeal of the 2nd Commandment help?

[gejohnston]

61. Nawww

We can use existing law. Just amend the definition of "mental defective" under the Gun Control Act.
BTW, the second commandment is "don't have any gods before me" If you are calling the BoR the ten commandments, do you have a problem with the other nine of the BoR?

[stone space]

62. Please present your proposed amendment for discussion.

Just amend the definition of "mental defective" under the Gun Control Act.

[Jenoch]

63. I can think of two interested parties who would welcome

"...a serious national debate about the second Amendment".

The NRA, gun manufacturers/dealers and the ammunition manufacturers/dealers.

Also, Democrats would lose the U.S. Senate, the U.S. House, and the Presidency for at least a generation if the 2A repeal battle were attempted by Democrats.

[mokawanis]

64. "They are paranoid delusional, authoritarian, violent-minded, hateful towards opposing facts"

That statement would apply to quite a few gun-owners, too. Are they fit to own a gun? What should we do about these people being armed?