Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forum4-year-old in Clarksville dies after shooting self in chest.
Posted: Aug 17, 2014 10:34 PM CDT
CLARKSVILLE, Tenn. -
A four-year-old child from Clarksville died Sunday night after police say he accidentally shot himself.
Authorities responded to a home in the 2600 block of Arthurs Court around 5:45 p.m.
The little boy was found with a gunshot wound to his chest. He was flown to Vanderbilt University Medical Center where he died a short time later.
Police said a preliminary investigation revealed the child somehow gained access to a loaded handgun and accidentally shot himself.
http://www.wkrn.com/story/26301970/4-year-old-in-clarksville-dies-after-shooting-self-in-chest
Every fucking day!
3catwoman3
(23,984 posts)...deemed a "tragic accident" and no changes will be pressed. "Somehow gained access?" BS. Because, somehow, some dumb ass adult thought it was OK to keep a loaded weapon in the same house with a child.
There is no excuse for this kind of stupidity.
Arkansas Granny
(31,516 posts)shenmue
(38,506 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)or locked up.
It can become a dangerous object if left unattended and found by others...be it a 4yo or your pillhead neighbor.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)How's that "double tapping" going?
Oh, sorry,you said "personal safety device". Now why would we lock up a personal safety device. People rarely kill themselves or others with bandaids, flashlights, fire extinguishers, pepper sprays or any other actual personal safety devices.
Keep those kids safe. Dump the guns until they are grown.
ileus
(15,396 posts)So is kayaking, swimming, and Mt Biking.
Of course those three are more dangerous than our range outtings.
And I'm not even going to mention water skiing, Football (first game of the year this morning) or the dirtbikes or ATV.
Those crazy turds are outside now playing "flashlight tag"....now that's dangerous. 3 boys and 4 girls running all over the place right now.
I just come in from the garage after casting another 3 or 400 9mm bullets and powder coating them. I'll load a few hundred tomorrow after church for Tuesday nights shoot club.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Sounds like you're preparing for the Thunderdome. Such lucky kids.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)is preparing for Thunderdome? That ranks up there with proven facts in court and part of the public record as "RW talking points".
You used to be capable of so much better.
So, I'm guessing nature deficit syndrome and helicopter parents are the marks of an advanced civilization (never mind that it is paranoia of something that very rarely happens)
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I'm sure he probably eats organic food too.
I love those activities and they are great for kids.
Forgive my cynicism when I see someone who claims to engage in them, while also extolling the virtues of riding around on dirt bikes and ATV's and calling guns "personal safety devices".
I think he is probably a Poe, though I'm not sure what kind of Poe, because he doesn't use smilies.
He's playing both sides of the fence. Saying "Hi, I'm about as nutty as a gun nut can be and I'm smog spewing consumer too" , but "I'm also a clean living, church going, mountain biking, kayaking, wholesome American dad"
Meanwhile, he's busy powdering his freshly made 9mm ammo in the garage, while the "turds", as he calls his kids, frolic healthily on the lawn.
Sorry GE. I'm not buying any of it. I think he's created this absurd persona, in an effort to ridicule gun owners. I doubt he owns any guns, or ATV's, or dirt bikes. I doubt he is either married or has children. But if so, I doubt either he or his wife carry guns as he claims.
Either that, or he is what he says. That said, I think he is harmless and like many who post here, just has a vivid imagination. But he's fun to play with.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 31, 2014, 12:37 AM - Edit history (1)
Nothing he said was really out of the ordinary for many rural areas in the US. I think he reflects the complexity and nuance that exists in life. A guy I went to school with drives a big assed pick up truck, hunts, goes ice fishing on the Flaming Gorge, and when I'm back in Wyoming, I see him and his wife (who I also know from high school) at either the gun or archery range. He sent me his recipe for tomato cobbler, so I'm testing out.
Caricatures and archetypes are like unicorns, they only exist in stories. The only way to understand anything or anyone is to accept them on their own terms. Once you do that, perhaps you will find what you are looking for and be one with the Tao.
As you know, Wyoming makes Florida look like a gun free zone. Guns were just part of the house, had no special mystery or magic anymore than the toaster did. Of course, we were also ingrained with the healthy respect and the four rules were absolute (unlike St Louis County Police. Regardless if Wilson's shooting was justified or not, SLCP aiming rifles at peaceful protesters is unprofessional and disgraceful. All of their asses should be gone.) Using your logic, being gun nuts they would be itching to get in a gunfight. My oldest brother was in two situations where he could have legally shot someone. First time as a rookie, a burglar came at him with a crowbar, legally a deadly weapon in Wyoming. Instead of using his .357, he used his stick. Second time an armed robbery. Brother had a shotgun, robber had what looked like a small pistol like a .25. Robber pointed it at him, but my brother knew enough to know that he was out of the effective range of a small pocket pistol. Once the robber realized that he had a 12 gauge pointed at him, he dropped what turned out to be an unloaded .25 and surrendered. My Bible thumping devout Methodist grandfather? He didn't even carry his loaded.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)for a while there, I was starting to think that you were suggesting that Ray Bradbury's short story "The Pedestrian" as a model for the ideal future.
enough
(13,259 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)The latest CDC data I found put childhood accidental deaths by gun at less than 150/yr. Do the math.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)The rate of childhood deaths by guns just keeps going down, much faster than half a dozen other causes of accidental death.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)is just the latest unnecessary gun death. 150 a year? Well I guess that's OK then. It's just a child.
No problem. Actually 1 is too many. There should be no children die like this. By the way.
In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 67% of all homicides in the U.S. were conducted using a firearm. Two-thirds of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides. In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S. In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.
Again. One dead child is too many.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)regarding childhood deaths via gun accidents. In 2010 deaths by gun accident for ages up to age 19 (a promiscuous definition of "childhood," but another topic) were 114. For children below age 14 the deaths numbered 62 FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY for an ENTIRE YEAR.
Don't move goal posts, don't conflate data after-the-fact.
If you want to reduce childhood accidental death rates even more, deal with drowning and several other causes whose numbers have NOT dropped nearly as much as gun accidental deaths, if at all.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Yes the entire year. 365 days.
The "example" I posted is the latest death from a "gun". I would bet good money there will be a gun death today in this country. I will not argue with you. But I will say you have demonstrated the perfect example of how gun lovers twist things to the extreme and obfuscate. The subject of the post and the forum is guns, gun control and considering, guns kill, gun deaths.
This is not the drowning, automobile accident, lightening strike forum. If you are going to debate something please stay on topic.
Yes. Every day "someone" is killed by "somebody" (even killing themselves) by and with a gun.
3catwoman3
(23,984 posts)...child death from an unsecured loaded gun is one too many. End of story.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Own it.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)country. Comprehending examples of gun death is obviously a wonderful target of pro gun framing and obfuscation.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Look, to understand basic trends and data is to provide a framework for what works and what doesn't; what we should do first and what we shouldn't bother with. Currently, there is a campaign by the Shooting Sports Foundation to get gun-owners to lock up and secure weapons. This may be working, since accidental deaths-by-guns are declining significantly. Such a campaign can be expanded by the use of PSAs in the broadcast media & the internet. Why not support this while legislation is locked down? Super Bowl, NPR, The Big 3, cable stations, the dailies.
Also currently, there is a push by some to turn attention to children drowning, as this is several times more dangerous as a cause of death. Perhaps they can read the numbers.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)I was a certified lifeguard. Bean counting will not save one child. This is a gun forum. Once again the subject is changed with general terms like " some". 1 dead child because the 2nd Amendment is the only amendment that counts for gun nuts is too many.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Have any idea how bad this kind of dialog makes you look?
Naaaa, ya got yer guns so all is as it should be.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)You don't get to make up stuff with the expectation you won't get your hand called here. And you won't profit from your errors when you are so called. Save the speculation on "my looks," she said I looked fine!
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)you don't care.
What's a hundred kids give or take with all we have to spare?
As long as you have your guns . . .
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)flamin lib
(14,559 posts)I've read your responses in GD and elsewhere on gunnery topics and they aren't so cranial/rectal as they are here.
So, deaths of kids are down from 150 to 114! Everything's just hunky dory! No problems here!
I had a similar exchange just before the lock in GD. Oh gun deaths are down since 1960! Its all good. Homicides per 100,000 in the US are 6x the next competitor among industrialized countries and 10x number 3 but its all good because homicides are down from 55 years ago. Never mind that gun homicides are flat for the last 30 of those 55 years, we're all good here cause things are better than they once were. Never mind that they're far worse than anywhere else in the first world.
Its like when you and a few others who post here there's a different mind set, like the line has to be towed, the cred must be maintained, like the others in this club will change the secret handshake and not let you back on the clubhouse.
Really, just re-read that dialog and see how totally callus it is. I like the stuff you post elsewhere, agree or not. Not here. Why is that?
krispos42
(49,445 posts)That would save 30,000 lives a year, many of them 18 and under.
"One dead child is too many".
Let me explain the hard and fast truth to you.
If you want to save as many lives as possible, as quickly as possible, then focusing on hardware is about the least effective thing you can do, and in fact is probably counterproductive.
Guns are tools. They are, by themselves, neither the motive nor the goal of the people that use them in criminal fashion. They are a tool used by career criminals, the enraged, the violent abusers, the depressed, and the hopeless.
Therefore, any attempt to "starve the beast" by simply reducing the number of guns (about 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (about 90 million, maybe a bit more) is doomed to be effectively a failure. Guns are durable devices, easily capable of lasting decades or centuries. Even with changing demographics (e.g., urban population per capita) working in favor of the non-gun-owner, it is unreasonable to imagine less than 25% of Americans owning guns. Even fairly severe measures, designed to make buying and owning a gun a multi-month, expensive, and intrusive process, would take generations to lower the per-capita rate of gun ownership to make it noticeably harder for criminals to get a gun.
But what is the political cost of trying to do so? Poor and working-class people voting for Republicans, and all that entails, simply because they dare to own a gun with a *gasp* pistol grip.
Corporatism. ALEC. Student loan debt. Banks run amok. Oligarchy. For-profit war. Bloated defense budgets. Privatized health insurance, water, electricity, sewers, prisons, parks, highways, canals, elections, and dams. Union-busting, off-shoring, shifting taxes to the non-wealthy. Gerrymandering, unlimited campaign donations, dark money PACs. War on Drugs forever. Corporate personhood. Patents and copyrights that never expire. Monopoly after monopoly after monopoly.
By your own admission, all rifles used in murders are outnumbered by handguns by about 17:1, yet a major plank of the gun-control platform is to target the subsection of rifles that could be defined as "assault weapons".
Is it worth it?
No, it's not. Turning the country over to the right wing is not worth being upset because *gasp* gun design has evolved over the past half-century. It won't save lives, and will cost far more. Everything that is wrong with America now will became much worse. Read any article on DU about a person that dies because of lack of health care, or of corporate negligance, or of pollution in their water or contamination in their food... and imagine it happening tenfold.
What WOULD save lives and vastly improve the standard of living of tens of millions is getting our progressive agenda moving.
Our progressive agenda is, like the conservative one, somewhat nebulous and abstract. But your attempts at gun-control are anything but. People that don't own guns simply don't know or don't care about how the laws affect gun-owners. After all... THEY'LL never have to deal with the effects directly.
Gun owners... they smell the bullshit. When Bloomberg and Feinstein demonize "assault weapons", it's culture war. And when they try to define "assault weapon", it's the height of stupidity.
Try to imagine ANY OTHER CONSUMER GOOD that is very loud, gets hot, emits bright flashes of light, and jumps around during normal use that Democrats proudly and publicly prevent, BY LAW, from muffling, installing heat-shields, flash reducers, or better handles.
Can you imagine that? But that's what an "assault weapon" ban is. Because the military, a substantial purchaser and user of guns, figured out ways to keep their people from getting flash-blinded and burns, to keep a better grip on their guns... those improvements are all of a sudden forbidden!
It's fundamentally stupid, and causes a very organized reaction from those affected by the culture war, while failing to motivate or organize non-gun-owners.
And the fallout? Well, I've already discussed that.
Our progressive agenda is the key to broad prosperity, better opportunity, more economic mobility and growth, better education, better health care, and lower crime rates on a long-term, permanent basis. And liberal policies on recreational drug use and treating drug abuse is the key to immediate and drastic crime-rate reductions.
But it can't happen if your culture war pushes the votes of the very people we need away.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)krispos: Because the military, a substantial purchaser and user of guns, figured out ways to keep their people from getting flash-blinded and burns, to keep a better grip on their guns... those improvements are all of a sudden forbidden!
How cosmetic; the military just wanted to protect soldiers little fingers. Not that they wanted to prevent the soldier giving away his position to the enemy due the flash from his rifle. Not that the military developed the m16 to carry lightweight bullets with high muzzle velocity 3000 fps which would fragment inside the enemy with so much kinetic energy the small little .223 bullet could dangle a man's arm off at the shoulder (just what's needed to stifle that thief wanting your wallet).
Not that the military wanted to lessen the recoil of a stronger rifle for better accuracy, no, just wanted to save the poor soldier from the hazards of being blinded, which has happened how many times?
wiki: Muzzle flash, particularly the long duration secondary flash, is an inherent problem in most firearms. Due to its brightness, muzzle flash can temporarily blind the shooter, or give away the shooter's location, especially at night.
I'll bet there's some kind of colored glasses which would preclude this temporary blindness phenomenon. Do any of you gun enthusiasts know if there is such a thing? maybe even built into a helmet visor?
Note one judge recently ruled assault rifles were not protected by the 2nd amendment rkba. Tho I disagree with the 'one judge' rule which allows one judge to alter rules by his self, I do agree with the premise, & if the right does it the left can too, vicy versy.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)flaming lib: Actually that's two judges. Antonin Scalia has said as much as well. nt
That's hard to believe, I'm surprised, both in context & that it somehow slipped past me.
Thanks for the heads up.
Would it translate into an nra defeat if it ended up there I wonder? or would scalia somehow contravene his own belief to appease the gunnuts?
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)and he has argued against his own past decisions. He may be suffering from dementia.
IIRC he said that the states could regulate types of firearms and when asked about shoulder fired anti aircraft missiles he specifically mentioned "M16s" and rockets as something the SCOTUS could decide.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)But not to anyone down range.
Silencers do a good job of hiding flashes from all directions, or at least that is what I'm led to believe, but those are different items from flash hiders.
Flash is only a problem in dim lighting, but wearing sunglasses at night to fix the problem is not really a solution.
You do realize that the 5.56 is less powerful than the 7.62 it replaced, right? Maybe 15% faster but half the bullet weight?
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)creeker
(148 posts)By your reasoning,if you save 1 child then banning guns is worth it.
Going by that reasoning we should ban swimming pools(drowning) school buses and cars.remember if it saves 1 child's life it is worth doing away with these "child killers".
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Acceptable statistics and no reason to impose penalties for negligence. No reason to insist on accountability for stupidity.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Were second amendment remedies can take care of your child too.
So sad. When are we ever gonna learn.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Whomever left a loaded shotgun lying around AND the parent or guardian who let a four-year-old anywhere near such a person or place...
...all of the adults are responsible for this.