The Center for American Progress wants to merge the FBI and ATF

[friendly_iconoclast]

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/report/2015/05/19/111386/the-bureau-and-the-bureau/

The Bureau and the Bureau
A Review of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and a Proposal to Merge It with the Federal Bureau of Investigation

And of course this has gotten support at the other group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12628931

"ATF is too wounded to enforce gun-control laws"

I daresay ones' support (or lack thereof) for this idea coincides with your
view of this excerpt from the CAP blog:

The FBI is a politically strong and well-respected agency and is therefore able to operate above the fray of politics with adequate funding and resources.

Oh, I'm quite certain the FBI would handle the ATF's duties in the same 'above politics'
way it always has...

[Lurks Often]

1. The FBI might actually investigate the people who fail a NICS check

As to the idea, for better or worse, in the end it depends on the people in charge.

The gaping flaw in the other group's logic is that idea that the FBI will be any better at enforcing the "gun control laws" they think the ATF is not enforcing.

I do think the idea could save some money, I have no doubt there is quite a bit of duplication and waste involved.

[ileus]

2. Another do nothing idea to make bloomies mommies happy.

[MicaelS]

3. I thought the ATF should have been ditched a long time ago.

The FBI has to do backgrounds check anyway for FFL, and NFA. If there's a bombing the FBI will get involved anyway.

[oneshooter]

4. The ATF is not considered very highly by other Federal LEO.

They were the dregs of the other Feds that were sent to the newly formed ATF. Those officers are now the old timers. And according to many, are still the dregs of Federal LE.

[gejohnston]

5. more accurately, they were the dregs of the IRS

They were part of the misc. tax unit of the IRS. IIRC, that is where the IRS sent their racists, sexists, badge heavy pricks, and other undesirables. That is why their EEO record still sucks.
http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/60-atfs-eeo-tricks/

[jimmy the one]

6. will nra oppose the nominee?

The FBI is a politically strong and well-respected agency and is therefore able to operate above the fray of politics with adequate funding and resources.

icon, disregard poor sentence structure: Oh, I'm quite certain the FBI would handle the ATF's duties in the same 'above politics' way it always has...

The fbi taking over the batfe's role in society? I think a fine idea, but what do the nra say? since the gun lobby makes simple pie of destroying the credibility & effectiveness of BATFE, in some fashion or another. They'll have a much harder go of it when faced with a much stronger & abler opponent, such as the federal bureau of investigation, known for its fierce tactics in seeking truth & justice & upholding the law. Wow imagine, increases the likelihood of the nra being investigated by that federal bureau of it.
I bet nra will remain silent until the idea actually melds better.

mother jones mag, jan 2013: On the campaign trail, he'd {Reagan} bashed the ATF and vowed to dissolve it. Once in Washington, Reagan, with the NRA's backing, proposed folding the ATF into the Secret Service.
But then the NRA had had a change of heart. The organization's strategists came to worry that if gun law enforcement was handed to the Secret Service, one of the few federal agencies with a reputation for competence, gun owners might actually have something to fear. And, they feared, that if the agency did become part of the Secret Service, they'd lose an easy target.
The NRA realized, "'Oh my God, we're gonna lose the ATF!'" recalls William Vizzard, who worked for bureau at the time. "It would have been like removing the Soviets during the Cold War, for the Defense Department—there's nobody to point to."
Working in conjunction with the liquor lobby, the NRA coaxed a friendly lawmaker, Sen. James Abdnor (R-S.D.), into scuttling the merger by inserting language in a budget bill. As Vizzard puts it, "If it weren't for the NRA and the liquor industry, there would be no ATF today, because the merger with the Secret Service would have just gone ahead."
... Once the NRA had saved the ATF, it focused on how to neuter it. Four years after bargaining for the preservation of the ATF, the NRA helped Congress formally handcuff the agency, in the form of the 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act. The law, which included a handful of token regulations, made it all but impossible for the govt to prosecute corrupt gun dealers. It prohibited the bureau from compiling a national database of retail firearm sales, reduced the penalty for dealers who falsified sales records from a felony to a misdemeanor, and raised the threshold for prosecution for unlicensed dealing.
.. most glaringly, the ATF was explicitly prohibited from conducting more than one inspection of a single dealer in a given year, meaning that once an agent had visited a shop, that dealer was free to flout the law. Those restrictions haven't changed over the last two decades. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/atf-obama-gun-reform-control-alcohol-tobacco-firearms

Over the last three decades, gun activists and lawmakers have purposefully hindered the ATF and carefully molded the agency that enforces gun laws to serve their own interests, stunting the ATF's budget, handicapping its regulatory authority, and keeping it effectively leaderless. .. The problems are obvious. The agency that Obama said "works most closely with state and local law enforcement to keep illegal guns out of the hands of criminals" has the same of number of agents as the Phoenix Police Department. Its budget has barely budged in decades. It has fewer investigators than it did in 1973. And its acting (and part-time) director, B. Todd Jones, commutes to work from Minneapolis, where he works full-time as a US attorney. It hasn't had a permanent director for six years. The NRA blocked Obama's earlier appointee, Andrew Traver, in part because Traver had once attended a meeting of police chiefs that focused on gun control.

[DonP]

8. Wow, all that "Sturm Und Drang" and you still can't do jack or shit in the real world.

Must be frustrating to be a control minded person these days.

Word salads, rude posts and baiting DU gun owners, and you still can't get anything done to limit firearm ownership or get even 1 state to consider repealing concealed carry. No real action from the "Activist" group it seems, just a lot of online whining about how horrible and "right wing nut" DU gun owners are and religious level blather about how there are fewer gun owners every minute.

And violent crime really isn't dropping I bet, since those FBI creeps that now you love to pieces if they run the ATF, must be lying about the UCR crime numbers that show crime dropping every year.

And now that damned Alan Gura has gone and done it again to the gun control fans in DC, and got a federal 3 judge panel to throw out the DC concealed carry rules. Just one hat handed to gun control after another.

But I do like the comment on one of your recent DU juried posts. "Let the utterly ignorant and rude be themselves online and that way we'll all know who they are by their own words." Good idea.

That's probably why most of us have just tuned your crap out.

No point in listening to what a self appointed, ineffective spokesperson for a failed gun control ideology thinks, since they can't put any of their control fantasies into action anyway.

But be sure and let us know if any of you ever actually DO anything in the real world, besides whine online. You know, write a check, circulate a petition, attend a town hall meeting on gun issues, better yet take Shannon Watts and both of the MDA members out for brunch and make fun of the NRA and Wayne LaPierre's haircut over coffee and Beignets. That'll change minds and hearts.

Anything?

[jimmy the one]

9. alan gura, donP's hero of the day

donP: .. all that "Sturm Und Drang" and you still can't do jack or shit in the real world. Word salads, rude posts and baiting DU gun owners, and you still can't get anything done to limit firearm ownership or get even 1 state to consider repealing concealed carry.

Are you applauding right wing republican legislators for this while you're ranting? Blame the true culprits for the lack of progress on gun control, & narrow minded jerks like you.
This is not your private board, bud, this is for a discussion between a quite heated topic, guns & gun control. If you can't stand the heat, donP, stay out of the kitchen. You lambast gun control advocates worse than I do gunnuts.

donP: And violent crime really isn't dropping I bet, since those FBI creeps that now you love to pieces if they run the ATF, must be lying about the UCR crime numbers that show crime dropping every year.

Huh? put your stinking words & thoughts in someone else's mouth. What a juvenile approach.

donP: That's probably why most of us have just tuned your crap out.

Fine with me; I still read yours, if you're scaredy cats afraid to fight back, what do I care?

donP: No point in listening to what a self appointed, ineffective spokesperson for a failed gun control ideology thinks, since they can't put any of their control fantasies into action anyway.

The reason gun control FAILS is largely due to republican legislators & right wing cretinism which blunts their efforts left & right. And cretins like alan gura, your hero of the day, eh?

donP: But be sure and let us know if any of you ever actually DO anything in the real world, besides whine online. You know, write a check, circulate a petition, attend a town hall meeting on gun issues, better yet take Shannon Watts and both of the MDA members out for brunch and make fun of the NRA and Wayne LaPierre's haircut over coffee and Beignets.

You must mean LaPierre-head, I guess.
People like you, make me sick.

[beevul]

10. This is fucking rich.

Huh? put your stinking words & thoughts in someone else's mouth. What a juvenile approach.

How often do you use the word "bimbo" James?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172167353#post46

[Eleanors38]

21. Well, Gura's sure getting rich.

[DonP]

11. Let me help you with that

http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx

Controlling Anger Before It Controls You

"We all know what anger is, and we've all felt it: whether as a fleeting annoyance or as full-fledged rage.

Anger is a completely normal, usually healthy, human emotion. But when it gets out of control and turns destructive, it can lead to problems—problems at work, in your personal relationships, and in the overall quality of your life. And it can make you feel as though you're at the mercy of an unpredictable and powerful emotion. This brochure is meant to help you understand and control anger."

Yup, Alan Gura's really a "cretin", he won Heller, McDonald, Ezell and several other major firearm related cases and now DC again, mainly because the people that you support and were dumb enough to follow your suggestions to "stand up to them", are idiots and keep forking over huge chunks of taxpayer dollars to Alan, the SAF, ISRA and the NRA.

And your feeble ass excuse is gun controllers are too stupid and incompetent to beat the NRA and the GOP on this? Even when they were in the Senate and House Minority, the control freaks still can't win at the legislative or judicial game, even with Bloomberg's millions of $$ in hand. That's a pretty weak ass excuse, even for you.

Well nobody can argue with the facts and results, or lack thereof, they really are pretty stupid and obviously ineffective. Not to mention having a major anger management "piss and moan" issue.

[jimmy the one]

13. Don the Angry, Beevul the Frustrated

donP: Yup, Alan Gura's really a "cretin", he won Heller, McDonald, Ezell and several other major firearm related cases and now DC again...

A law student monkey could've stood up there before the supreme court & most the other short courts & the outcome would've been the same; 5 - 4 in scotus, kinda preordained; are you so dense to think gura's skill had much to do with anything? outside of being coached by nra guns for hire? gura was a mouthpiece, simply the gunnut presenter for the effort.
Gura is a rightwing cretin, as well as a gun lobby puppet, to subvert centuries of history, for infamy & money. Right wing cretinism can be a very powerful force, if allowed to foment in mythologies & superstitions, while raging in it's own paranoia & ignorance.

donP: Anger is a completely normal, usually healthy, human emotion. But when it gets out of control and turns destructive, it can lead to problems—problems at work, in your personal relationships, and in the overall quality of your life.

Another idiotic transmogrification & ad hominem from donP, an obnoxious attempt to smear someone he can't handle with the usual wolf pack tactics so apparent on other rkba threads.
It appears you might have the anger problem donP, not I. You are annoying, and, as you write above, any anger directed at you on these boards is completely normal & healthy, since it does not get out of control, despite your stupid importuning that it does. If you think it does you have never really seen true anger, or rage.

donP: And your feeble ass excuse is gun controllers are too stupid and incompetent to beat the NRA and the GOP on this? Even when they were in the Senate and House Minority, the control freaks still can't win at the legislative or judicial game, even with Bloomberg's millions of $$ in hand.

Was this gibberish supposed to actually convey some kind of point or argument? The senate filibuster doomed manchin Toomey bg check bill, the 'republican' filibuster iirc.
You focus on 'Bloomberg's millions', why did you overlook nra millions? the gun lobby's millions? The nra spent ~5 million dollars circa 1999 in Missouri to try to pass a referendum on shall issue, gun control advocates about 700,000; the nra lost the referendum 52-48. Are you really that dense to think money can always buy success when there are other extenuating factors involved? Bloomberg's money simply counterbalances the gun lobby's.

beevul: This is fucking rich.
beevul quotes me: Huh? put your stinking words & thoughts in someone else's mouth.
beevul 3: How often do you use the word "bimbo" James?

... this pest doesn't even realize he's getting his *** whipped.
1 Saying you portrayed Shannon watts as a bimbo is not putting words in your mouth, it's my opinion of what you wrote, & the way I expressed my opinion of what you wrote.
2 When mr politenessman donP wrote this he was inferring that I believed violent crime did not fall recent 20 yrs: Word salads, rude posts and baiting DU gun owners, and you still can't get anything done to limit firearm owners.... And violent crime really isn't dropping I bet, since those FBI creeps that now you love to pieces if they run the ATF, must be lying about the UCR crime numbers that show crime dropping every year.

See how you got your *** handed to you again beevul? You should sit down & shut up so as to stem the bleeding.

what beevul linked to, errantly thinking I put words in his mouth: You {beevul} are sick-minded to portray Shannon watts, a fine democrat who heads 'Moms demand Action', into some lying lame brained bimbo

It's undeniable beevul, you portrayed Shannon as a lying lame brained bimbo, more than less. In the very thread you linked to. But thanks for linking to it so many more can read about how you lied & lied again about Shannon watts, & your botched attempt to say she lied, by posting about the security guard shooting a church shooter, thinking it was simply a civilian dgu.

[DonP]

14. Yeah, we're angry and frustrated? Now that's great humor for you

Excuse me a minute, I have to wipe the spittle from the inside of my screen.

There, now I can read your latest tripe report.

Wow! You really have to stop referring to Shannon Watts as a "Bimbo" in print on DU. If the folks in HoF see that, you'll have some real problems. Sure, she was a corporate shill and well paid liar for Monsanto and GMOs for years, but you can't hold that against her. She just made a bad career choice when she was young. Ah, but now she's doing "heaven's work" and saying what you want her to and what her leader tells her to.

So let's see ... Maine just passed constitutional carry in the legislature, DC got it's hand slapped hard by a 3 judge panel and that's just this week so far, oh and it ain't looking good for Peruta either, and it goes on and on.

Things really aren't going your way now, are they? And you keep blaming that mean old GOP for all your ineffectiveness and track record of one failure after another. Boy, either you guys are really stupid or the NRA, SAF etc. is just brilliant at beating you with a stick at every turn, even with "90% of the country agreeing with you" (LoL). Choose one.

Not much to be angry or frustrated about for supporters of the 2nd amendment, is there?

But we have all noticed that your posts get longer and longer and more, shall we say, "wandering and pointless" the more frustrated you seem to get.

Once again, you and your ilk have become truly irrelevant to the conversation and have proven ineffective in accomplishing pretty much anything in the real world. In short, you can easily be ignored now. All of the word salad thrown against the wall doesn't change a bit of that.

But keep up the humorous posts. We all like a good laugh on our way to the range or to teach another concealed carry class.

[jimmy the one]

16. don't worry, be gun free

donP: . Yeah, we're angry and frustrated? Now that's great humor for you Excuse me a minute, I have to wipe the spittle from the inside of my screen. There, now I can read your latest tripe report.

Look at the bright side of this, now your monitor screen isn't as dirty as it usually is. (is yours called a monitor like mine is, too?). Suggestion tho, now spray some ammonia based window cleaner on your screen or monitor, so as to disinfect your infectious spittle & mucous & snot off the entire shebang. If not for you, do it for the children, STD & salmonella are no fun for a kid.

donP: ..she was a corporate shill and well paid liar for Monsanto and GMOs for years...

You can post a few examples of her 'well paid' lies? reputable sources only. Source up or shut up on it, you're becoming a beevul clone.

Yes DonP the Angry, on this board.
I first replied to icon's OP with a post about how the nra used/uses the batfe as a punching bag, then you replied to that post of mine with your angry rant, including your overture: Wow, all that "Sturm Und Drang" and you still can't do jack or shit in the real world. Must be frustrating to be a control minded person these days. Word salads, rude posts and baiting DU gun owners, and you still can't get anything done to limit firearm ownership or get even 1 state to consider repealing concealed carry. No real action from the "Activist" group it seems, just a lot of online whining about how horrible and "right wing nut" DU gun owners are and religious level blather about how there are fewer gun owners every minute.

In other words, sap, you are the one who started off angry, not me. You are the one who instigated ad hominem & anger & opened the door for a counter parry. You are the hypocrite to fob it onto myself - you do the initial shoving then cry you've been attacked when your shovee shoves back.

donP: You really have to stop referring to Shannon Watts as a "Bimbo" in print on DU. If the folks in HoF see that, you'll have some real problems.

This is utterly stupid from you, donP. I do not call Shannon a bimbo, I am clearly writing that beevul was portraying her as a bimbo, there's a big difference in connotation you evidently don't understand. Beevul's a dumbo for portraying Shannon a bimbo.
I doubt the folks in whatever that is, hof, would have any problems with my posts; you should therefore redirect your idiocy to beevul, because with him I'm sure they'd have 'real problems', & he's one of yours.

donP: And you keep blaming that mean old GOP for all your ineffectiveness and track record of one failure after another.

I blame gop for idiocy in it's approach to gun control, similar to my approach to yours.

donP: Not much to be angry or frustrated about for supporters of the 2nd amendment, is there?

Gun purchases, taxes thereon; gun license fees, ccw fees; ammunition fees, anxiety attacks when you wake up in a sweat whether you left your pistol out last night in the kid accessible living room. Worry will your teenager access your gun safe get a gun get some bullets & shoot himself? go on a shooting spree? against you?
(for gunnuts only): worry whether all your 20 firearms are properly accounted for? Is the pistol strategically hidden in the refrigerator butter door still loaded, in case of emergency? or did wifey come & take the bullets out?
National ccw reciprocity? is it ready for a veto yet? I think that will have to wait for a republican president. Got the blue state gun control blues? good.
Maybe not anger or frustration, but worry goes a lot with gun ownership. I have no concern with any of that whatsoever.

donP: Boy, either you guys are really stupid or the NRA, SAF etc. is just brilliant at beating you with a stick at every turn, even with "90% of the country agreeing with you" (LoL).

You're pretty enamoured with the nra & gun lobby, eh? Are you dense? stupid? in a vegetative state? the nra controls or influences most of the republican legislators in this country, they buy & pay for a lot of their votes too, masked as donations, really rewards. You are PROUD of this gun lobby influence? then you're sick.

[DonP]

19. Another wandering, poorly punctuated word salad post, full of sound, fury and irrelevancy

As usual, still unable to point to any serious gun control progress, they shift to attacking others. Great transparent (and really very insecure) strategy.

And once again proving that the more frustrated the grabber types become, the longer and more pointless their posts become.

No wonder you've all become a punch line here.

"the nra controls or influences most of the republican legislators in this country"

Most of the Democrats in Congress, state legislatures and even Obama and Clinton appointed judges too it seems, based on all these bipartisan state votes, Congress and the judicial decisions.

BTW, We're all wondering how you "know" how Alan Gura votes, but I'm guessing you really have no F'ing idea and that came out of your nether region, your usual source of "facts". Or do you just assume that any lawyer that takes a case you don't agree with must be a GOP shill? Tell us you're not really that terminally stupid?

Well, your form of activism is running off at the mouth endlessly online and being self contradictory. My kind of activism is running another new class for concealed carry that starts tonight. As usual, I have more women signed up than men and several couples.

I'll have to be sure and make the women aware that they are just substituting for not having a penis, per JTO, the self appointed Democrat Party Spokesperson on DU.

Be sure and display your "activism" some more with more rambling posts, your ego obviously needs the attention.

I have to go set up class now, so this is your chance to get in "the last word", when nobody is around. That way you can go away feeling "I told them what for".

[jimmy the one]

23. donp concedes

donP: ..she was a corporate shill and well paid liar for Monsanto and GMOs for years...

I asked earlier post: You can post a few examples of her 'well paid' lies? reputable sources only. Source up or shut up on it, you're becoming a beevul clone.

DonP did not post any examples of Shannon watts alleged lies, so I presume he's taken my advice & 'shut up on it'. Bravo DonP, Bravo.
Well, you should apologize I suppose, tho likely asking way too much from Mr P.
Oh, btw, confusing the firing characteristics of an assault rifle is not a lie, just unfamiliarity or a misspeak.

donP, earlier: Sure, she {Shannon watts} was a corporate shill and well paid liar for Monsanto and GMOs for years, but you can't hold that against her. She just made a bad career choice when she was young. Ah, but now she's doing "heaven's work" and saying what you want her to and what her leader tells her to.

donP: My kind of activism is running another new class for concealed carry that starts tonight. As usual, I have more women signed up than men and several couples.

Your anecdotal evidence proves nothing, overall.

donP: I'll have to be sure and make the women aware that they are just substituting for not having a penis, per JTO,

Gee, you really gonna do that? won't they think you a nutball or something? I wouldn't blame them for thinking that, to be perfectly honest. Will you start off with it? or sneak it in at the end? do it at the end & people might not notice gals leaving in disgust. Watch out for lewd & lascivious remarks in class, mr P, you'll turn into ted nugent II.
And how about Caitlyn now?

[beevul]

15. "See how you got your *** handed to you again beevul? You should sit down & shut up..."

My ass?

Oh, I get it. You're channeling wimp lo. Wait, you can't read that, My bad, forgot the caps. Here:

YOU'RE CHANNELING WIMP LO:

1 Saying you portrayed Shannon watts as a bimbo is not putting words in your mouth, it's my opinion of what you wrote, & the way I expressed my opinion of what you wrote.

Not quite mister Lo. Your opinion or not, such a conclusion can not be reasonably drawn, based on the words I used, and the sentiment which is the sum of those words.

Inserting your stinking words & thoughts in someone else's mouth, is precisely what you're attempting to do, there, and here in this thread.

"See how you got your *** handed to you again beevul? You should sit down & shut up..."

ROFL.

Yeah, I just can't stand these constant assaults by you, in the yourface to myfist style. Please stop, my figurative knuckles can't take the pain.

It's undeniable beevul, you portrayed Shannon as a lying lame brained bimbo, more than less. In the very thread you linked to. But thanks for linking to it so many more can read about how you lied & lied again about Shannon watts..

Heres another spoonful of medicine.


SHANNON WATTS: LIAR

"Our message is that, you know first of all, were not anti-gun, we support the second amendment..."

Moms Demand Action Deeply Disappointed in Federal Judge’s Decision Overturning Chicago’s Citywide Ban on Gun Dealerships

Grassroots Movement Outraged on Behalf of Gun Violence Victims in Chicago

U.S. District Judge Edmond Chang has ruled that Chicago’s ordinance prohibiting licensed gun stores from operating in the city is unconstitutional. The court’s decision reportedly cited the city’s failure to prove that banning licensed gun dealers has a significant impact in reducing gun violence. The ruling would also decriminalize many private transfers of firearms between individuals inside city limits.

Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America is shocked that in a densely populated city struggling to keep children safe from gunfire, the court has dealt a serious blow to public safety by essentially encouraging more citizens to arm themselves. We firmly believe that loosening gun legislation is a step in the wrong direction, and we echo the Mayor of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, who ‘strongly disagrees’ with this ruling and said in a statement yesterday, “we need stronger gun safety laws, not increased access to firearms within the city.”

In the context of federal loopholes that already make it too easy for criminals to obtain firearms, cities must be allowed to enact local ordinances to curb gun violence, such as Chicago’s ban on gun dealing. Despite the gun lobby’s efforts to chip away at common-sense regulations, we support a city’s right to regulate businesses that profit from selling guns.

Moms Demand Action will support and work with local officials and law enforcement to appeal this ruling. Despite the forces of the DC-based gun lobby to wield influence in Illinois, we will ultimately persevere alongside community leaders who continue the struggle to reduce gun violence in Chicago.

http://momsdemandaction.org/in-the-news/moms-demand-action-deeply-disappointed-federal-judges-decision-overturning-chicagos-citywide-ban-gun-dealerships/

I'm sure on some planet your debate style is impressive, but your weak link is: this is Earth.

Considering that, maybe its you that should sit down and shut up.


Oh, I almost forgot:

...about the security guard shooting a church shooter, thinking it was simply a civilian dgu.

Guess what, mister Lo? The "security guard" you speak of, was a volunteer, and a civilian.

100 percent dgu right there.

Have a nice day.

[jimmy the one]

18. no lucid reasoning from weezul

beevul: The "security guard" you speak of, was a volunteer, and a civilian. 100 percent dgu right there.

Of course it was a dgu, duh, who contested that, your imaginary friend? The concern is whether the dgu was performed by someone connected to law enforcement, or disconnected from law enforcement.
You're a tap dancing con artist, and you havent' much a clue as to what constitutes a cogent argument.
You took Shannon watts out of context & indeed portrayed her as a lying bimbo. Note beevul clipped sentence below which qualified it as school, mall, & public interest bldg. shootings:

beevul, post 32 in thread, quoting interview betw Blackwell & Shannon watts: Where a bad guy with a gun has been stopped in any other way or by a person other than a law enforcement officer with a gun or by killing himself?” asked Blackwell. “This has never happened,” replied Watts. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172167353#post40

beevul, post 41, above link: I contend that she intended to sound the way I interpreted her words, however... If she meant what you claim she does, then shes STILL WRONG:

You contend that Shannon INTENDED to sound the way you interpreted her out of context words????? Says who? you? ludicrous reasoning. She intended that a civilian disconnected from law enforcement had not been involved in stopping a school or mall or public interest bldg. shooting. Your contention beevul, has no basis in lucid reasoning.
---------------------------------------------

beevul: If she meant what you claim she does, then shes STILL WRONG {because, church shooter in 2007} Murray, who was armed with clips for 1,000 rounds of ammunition, and two hand guns, began firing an assault rifle in an corner of the {church} parking lot. And since we KNOW he committed the shooting, CLEARLY he had opportunity. Now lets talk about how he was stopped

Beevul now makes his argument as how church shooter was stopped; by churchgoer Ms Assam, carrying a pistol:

wiki: .. New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot shooting the Works family and Purcell. Murray.. shot Larry B, hitting him in the forearm. At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon.. after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself.

Smirking with himself with childish emoticons, egomaniac beevul struts: No matter how one interprets Shannon watts words, her words make claims that are false.

No matter how we interpret it, she's lying? how about we interpret it this way: beevul's own link, how did he miss it?: .. bullet casings found in both locations were fired by a handgun found on Murray, who was killed by New Life Church volunteer security guard, Jeanne Assam, 42. "It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God," said Assam, a former Minneapolis police officer. " http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7686929

wiki: Contract security officers may enforce certain laws and administrative regulations, which may include detainment or apprehension authority, but not arresting. Peace officers may also be able to perform all duties that a law enforcement officer is tasked with, but may or may not be armed with a weapon

Duh, beevul, thou of little polemic intellect, the dgu shooter was a former police officer & the current security guard for the church where the killer shot.

I wrote: You {beevul} are sick-minded to portray Shannon watts into some lying lame brained bimbo
beevul today, responding on a different thread to essentially same premiss: Your opinion or not, such a conclusion can not be reasonably drawn, based on the words I used, and the sentiment which is the sum of those words.

beevul yday: No matter how one interprets Shannon watts words, her words make claims that are false.

So far your proof has been shot down in flames, despite your whinings. A conclusion can indeed be 'reasonably drawn', that beevul was portraying Shannon as a lying bimbo (also including defamatory remarks by beevul against Shannon).

in full context: Blackwell: >> I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOU ON SOMETHING, SHANNON....IS THERE AN EXAMPLE IN WHICH MAYBE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS OR MALL SHOOTINGS OR THESE PUBLIC FACILITIES WHERE THAT HAS BEEN WRONG, WHERE THIS BAD GUY WITH A GUN HAS BEEN STOPPED IN ANY OTHER WAY BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN OR A PERSON OTHER THAN A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WITH A GUN OR HIM KILLING HIMSELF?
Shannon watts replied: >> IT'S NEVER HAPPENED. DATA SHOWS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

beevul: No matter how one interprets Shannon watts words, her words make claims that are false.

Where, beevul?

[beevul]

20. That just means you don't know it when you see it.

Of course it was a dgu, duh, who contested that, your imaginary friend? The concern is whether the dgu was performed by someone connected to law enforcement, or disconnected from law enforcement.

You answer this question further down, yet pretend that the answer is not the answer. Allow me highlight it for you:

a former Minneapolis police officer

What does the word 'former' mean to you mister Lo? does it mean the same thing as 'current'? Or does it mean the same thing as 'no longer'?

'Former' indicates disconnected.

And this:

wiki: Contract security officers may enforce certain laws and administrative regulations, which may include detainment or apprehension authority, but not arresting. Peace officers may also be able to perform all duties that a law enforcement officer is tasked with, but may or may not be armed with a weapon

You posted info about contract security officers, in a failed attempt to prove what exactly about volunteer security?

Duh, beevul, thou of little polemic intellect, the dgu shooter was a former police officer & the current security guard for the church where the killer shot.

Former? No longer connected to law enforcement, you mean. Current VOLUNTEER security guard, rather than 'contract'.


So private citizen DGU right there. And Shannon watts lied. "IT'S NEVER HAPPENED" is the lie right from her yap.


Next?

[jimmy the one]

24. leave it to beevul

1 donP: Man holds would-be carjacker at gunpoint until police arrive Look! Here's another one of those things that "never happens".
2 JTO asked: Says who? you?
3 BEEVUL wrote: "Says who? you?" Glad you asked, James.

Then beevul proceeds to take out of context the interview between Blackwell & Shannon Watts of Moms demand Action re gun violence, to demonstrate that Shannon watts had 'also said' those things 'never happen(s)':
..Where a bad guy with a gun has been stopped in any other way or by a person other than a law enforcement officer with a gun or by killing himself?” asked Blackwell.
.. “This has never happened,” replied Watts.

It's obvious beevul was referring to the defensive gun use by the car owner being car-jacked, using Shannon saying 'this has never happened' in a manner she never intended. Misinformation, disinformation, unethical, slander, from the beev.

beevul: Theres no reason to pretend that Bloombergs Mother Monsanto is an innocent delicate little flower. Shes a VERIFIED liar on the gun issue. But then, you know that:

Post a bona fide substantive lie, not just your subjective BS that she said she was not 'anti-gun', and then subjectively claiming that as a lie.

[beevul]

26. Gee mister lo...

Last edited Wed Jun 3, 2015, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Post a bona fide substantive lie, not just your subjective BS that she said she was not 'anti-gun', and then subjectively claiming that as a lie.

I'm so glad you asked. I'll go through it point so as to make sure you're catching what I'm throwing.

Exhibit A:

"Our message is that, you know first of all, were not anti-gun, we support the second amendment..."

Notice she said "WE" rather than "I". She also seems to be saying that they're "not anti-gun" AND that they "support the second amendment. Do you disagree? No? Good.


Now notice this press release by the duplicitous little group that she leads for Mayor1percentstopandfrisk.

Exhibit B:

Moms Demand Action Deeply Disappointed in Federal Judge’s Decision Overturning Chicago’s Citywide Ban on Gun Dealerships

Grassroots Movement Outraged on Behalf of Gun Violence Victims in Chicago

U.S. District Judge Edmond Chang has ruled that Chicago’s ordinance prohibiting licensed gun stores from operating in the city is unconstitutional. The court’s decision reportedly cited the city’s failure to prove that banning licensed gun dealers has a significant impact in reducing gun violence. The ruling would also decriminalize many private transfers of firearms between individuals inside city limits.

Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America is shocked that in a densely populated city struggling to keep children safe from gunfire, the court has dealt a serious blow to public safety by essentially encouraging more citizens to arm themselves. We firmly believe that loosening gun legislation is a step in the wrong direction, and we echo the Mayor of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, who ‘strongly disagrees’ with this ruling and said in a statement yesterday, “we need stronger gun safety laws, not increased access to firearms within the city.”

In the context of federal loopholes that already make it too easy for criminals to obtain firearms, cities must be allowed to enact local ordinances to curb gun violence, such as Chicago’s ban on gun dealing. Despite the gun lobby’s efforts to chip away at common-sense regulations, we support a city’s right to regulate businesses that profit from selling guns.

Moms Demand Action will support and work with local officials and law enforcement to appeal this ruling. Despite the forces of the DC-based gun lobby to wield influence in Illinois, we will ultimately persevere alongside community leaders who continue the struggle to reduce gun violence in Chicago.

http://momsdemandaction.org/in-the-news/moms-demand-action-deeply-disappointed-federal-judges-decision-overturning-chicagos-citywide-ban-gun-dealerships/

Moms Demand Action Deeply Disappointed in Federal Judge’s Decision Overturning Chicago’s Citywide Ban on Gun Dealerships (In a state where ALL firearms sales are background checked) Why Exactly?


Because they aren't anti-gun?

Because they support the second amendment?


Here it is in a nutshell mr lo:


First, if her group were as she claims "not anti-gun" and "support the second amendment", they'd be applauding a store opening in a location where ALL firearms sales are background checked.

Second, they're not just "not applauding" a gun store for opening in a place where all gun sales are background checked, theyre "Deeply Disappointed".

Now, unless you think she tripped on the carpet and it caused her to say one thing and then commit actions which put lie to her words...

On edit, just because:



"Our message is that, you know first of all, were not anti-gun, we support the second amendment..."

[Eleanors38]

40. That Shannon two-step is such a billowing, mud-spattering hippo fart. jeez.

[jimmy the one]

25. the never failing vice of fools

beevul: a former Minneapolis police officer ... What does the word 'former' mean to you mister Lo? does it mean the same thing as 'current'?

security link: If you decide that armed guards are needed, we recommend that you enlist only current or former law enforcement professionals or security firms who receive regular weapons training.
... A volunteer security guard is credited with saving dozens of lives at a {Colorado} church after firing multiple shots at a gunman.... current or former law enforcement officers make excellent candidates for church security positions.
.. Laypeople and others without the training and experience of law enforcement officials might pose more of a liability to your church than a benefit, when faced with a situation such as the one at New Life Church. http://www.brotherhoodmutual.com/index.cfm/resources/ministry-safety/article/should-churches-have-armed-security-guards/

beevul: Former? No longer connected to law enforcement, you mean. Current VOLUNTEER security guard, rather than 'contract'.

How many other church goers were 'volunteer security guards'? Ever see the monty python movie where this bridgekeeper keeps getting his arms & legs chopped off one at a time, trying to defend some bridge to some fiefdom? You too keep getting chopped down, but you stay there lashing out with your remaining arm & leg - 'nobody's gonna shoot down my Shannon watts mythology'.
At least icon had enough sense to crawl back under his troll bridge, why don't you do the same & save that arm?

Icon the clam: "Better to remain silent, and thought a fool, than to open's one mouth......and remove all doubt."

Yeah boy, icon, totally agree; & who hasnt' said boo here for about a week now? While I'm exposing away.
Here's another platitude for you & especially the beeve: Is pride, the never-failing vice of fools." - Alexander Pope

[beevul]

27. THATS your gambit?

security link

No. Its a link to a website run by an insurance company.

[div class="excerpt"...]when faced with a situation such as the one at New Life Church.

With recommendations written after the fact, no less.


You win mister Lo.

I am in awe of this new argument you have come up with.

"because an insurance company said so after the fact", is by far the most compelling argument I have ever been faced with, will be the trump card in all gun rights discussions from now on.

I therefore give up and has a permanent sad.




I don't fear the future of gun rights, so long as folks like you remain outspoken.

[jimmy the one]

28. eggs to bones

beevul: I contend that she {Shannon watts} intended to sound the way I interpreted her words, however... If she meant what you claim she does, then shes STILL WRONG:

Beevul contends Shannon watts intended to sound the way he interpreted her words, that of a defensive gun use never happening - ever I guess.
Beevul later wrote this: So private citizen {school shooting} DGU right there. And Shannon watts lied. "IT'S NEVER HAPPENED" is the lie right from her yap.

You contradict yourself any which way you look at it. Above you contend Shannon lied saying 'It's never happened', and you use the church shooting in Colorado as an example of a church shooting and dgu 'happening', even tho it was done by a volunteer church security guard who was a former cop.
For your pathetic stratagem to work even weakly, beevul, you would needed have INCLUDED the fuller quote from Blackwell, where he specified church, school, & public bldg. shootings. Clipping her out of context makes your entire defense here, look ridiculous.

2 To argue her intent was as you took her out of context, that any firearm based dgu 'never happened' is your biased opinion, with little to back it up other than your sayso, along with some creepy gun blogs.
Since you originally left mention of 'church, school & public bldgs' off (the bone of contention), you are backsliding, trying to retrofit your explanation so as to save face, most of which is covered by now with a dozen eggs.

[beevul]

30. "even tho it was done by a volunteer church security guard who was a former cop"

Hey jimmy, guess what a volunteer security guard who is a former cop is.


A CIVILIAN.


That's just not going to change.

[jimmy the one]

31. pew to you

beevul: .. guess what a volunteer security guard who is a former cop is. A CIVILIAN. That's just not going to change

So are most paid security guards (excepting military), civilians. Duh.
The one at new life church happened to be a former cop who was the security guard, which differentiates her immensely from the regular crop of civilian gun owners carrying a ccw or gun.

You really need to rethink your position on this, you can not win. The circumstances at new life provide ample enough evidence to support what Shannon watts claimed at the time. You use strained reasoning to make a former cop security guard out to be just another praying civilian kneeling in the pews.
A demonstrated LIAR like you beevul, cannot dispute Shannon watts by playing specious games.

[beevul]

32. "differentiates her immensely from the regular crop of civilian gun owners carrying a ccw or gun."

"differentiates her immensely from the regular crop of civilian gun owners carrying a ccw or gun."

Make your case counselor.

You asserted it, now prove it.

not just in the general sense, but HER. You said it differentiates HER>

Prove it.

"You really need to rethink your position on this, you can not win.

Yes yes. You are the borg, and I will be assimilated. Blah blah blah the pendulum is swinging, and any day now, so on and so forth...

The circumstances at new life provide ample enough evidence to support what Shannon watts claimed at the time.

Her claim:

Where a bad guy with a gun has been stopped in any other way or by a person other than a law enforcement officer with a gun or by killing himself?” asked Blackwell.
“This has never happened,” replied Watts.

Newsflash mr Lo:

Ms assame falls squarely under "person other than a law enforcement officer".

One is either "a law enforcement officer" or one is not. Former, indicates the 'not' category.


You lose.

[jimmy the one]

33. beevul-deceit

I asked: Post a bona fide substantive lie, not just your subjective BS that she said she was not 'anti-gun', and then subjectively claiming that as a lie.
beevul channeled Shannon watts: "Our message is that, you know first of all, were not anti-gun, we support the second amendment..."

beevul: Notice she said "WE" rather than "I". She also seems to be saying that they're "not anti-gun" AND that they "support the second amendment. Do you disagree? No? Good.

This is not in any way convincing evidence of a Shannon watts 'LIE' - tho I personally think it's convincing evidence that beevul get a psychiatric examination.

1 Shannon watts group: Moms Demand Action Deeply Disappointed in Federal Judge’s Decision Overturning Chicago’s Citywide Ban on Gun Dealerships
2 beevul continues his canard: (In a state where ALL firearms sales are background checked) Why Exactly? Because they aren't anti-gun? Because they support the second amendment? First, if her group were as she claims "not anti-gun" and "support the second amendment", they'd be applauding a store opening in a location where ALL firearms sales are background checked.

Not necessarily, since inner city Chicago is a flash point for high crime, & bg checks can be circumvented using fake i.d.s & straw purchases. This is news to only the densest gunnuts.

beevul (post 26 above) supposedly posts a tweet from Shannon watts: MikeBloomberg and I want guns gone. Period. It doesn't matter what it takes.

Yet beevul does not post a link to this, & a google yields only gun blogs as sources for this, no reputable link appears to substantiate, & it sounds like a gun lobby plant. Until beevul comes up with a reputable link, I dismiss this as beevulcrap.
.. What appears to've happened, is that Shannon was reposting tweets written about 'her', rec'd from angry gunnuts. So some gunnut appears to've made the remark that 'Bloomberg & I want guns gone. Period.', and Shannon was simply reposting it in a blog of sorts:

... that innocuous {Shannon watts} tweet became a platform to attack the Gun Sense advocate by NRA supporters. The hashtag #ImBlockedByShannonWatts started trending on Twitter.​.. So Ms. Watts is retweeting some vulgar responses to her one tweet. http://www.alan.com/2014/12/27/nra-supporters-launch-vicious-misogynistic-twitter-attack-on-gun-reform-leader/#

Shannon watts: "Our message is that, you know first of all, were not anti-gun, we support the second amendment..."

This is a subjective remark, Shannon rejecting the pejorative gun lobby term 'anti-gun' used to denigrate those who disagree with the hard right position on guns. Beevul cannot use his argument that watts is 'lying' simply by saying she & Moms are 'anti-gun' despite the disclaimeer. Just more evidence of beevul deceit.

[beevul]

34. How do you spin like that without getting dizzy and throwing up?

Not necessarily, since inner city Chicago is a flash point for high crime, & bg checks can be circumvented using fake i.d.s & straw purchases. This is news to only the densest gunnuts.

Straw purchases? All things being equal, straw purchases are no more of a problem than anywhere else. Plus, this is CHICAGO. Home of background checks on every firearm. Home of FOID. I doubt very much that FOIDs are being successfully faked at any rate that might be reasonably described as 'significant'.

This is a subjective remark, Shannon rejecting the pejorative gun lobby term 'anti-gun' used to denigrate those who disagree with the hard right position on guns. Beevul cannot use his argument that watts is 'lying' simply by saying she & Moms are 'anti-gun' despite the disclaimeer. Just more evidence of beevul deceit.

That's your OPINION james.

However, lets just end the charade now:



"Our message is that, you know first of all, were not anti-gun, we support the second amendment..."

One of these things is not like the other...

Like I said before, You Lose.

[jimmy the one]

35. where's the reputable link to the tweet?

Where is the reputable link to what you contend Shannon watts tweeted? - MikeBloomberg and I want guns gone. Period.
Where is the reputable link? You apparently posted something from a gun blog; the wording appears to have been a reposting of vulgar tweets by Shannon watts, not originating from her.

beevul: Straw purchases? All things being equal, straw purchases are no more of a problem than anywhere else.

Flash: all things are not equal, & straw purchases are more a problem in gun control areas than in areas with loose lax gun laws. Straw purchases are a bigger problem in urban areas.

beevul: Plus, this is CHICAGO. Home of background checks on every firearm. Home of FOID. I doubt very much that FOIDs are being successfully faked at any rate that might be reasonably described as 'significant'.

So go outside of Chicago & cook co to buy guns, it's a workable strategy to curb illicit sales within the city.

You realize you must post a link to Shannon watts tweeting that about wanting guns gone, or else you are once again caught in a deception.

[gejohnston]

36. the FOID is Illinois wide

straw purchases are about as common as voter fraud, even easier to detect.

[DonP]

41. Illinois also requires background checks on all sales, private, gun shows etc.

Every new FOID card is a new gun owner.

250,000 new FOIDs in the last 18 months.

[beevul]

37. Its out there.

If I remember right, this is one she deleted almost immediately, like so many other 'tell' tweets shes made. The florida gun registration one is another example. See, she does that when the mask slips and someone points it out to her. Its somewhat like a celebrity wardrobe malfunction, except instead of literal, its figurative.

Instead of a garment slipping to reveal skin, her mask slips and shows everyone her ugly beliefs and intentions.

"Watts mask slipped and she showed everyone her ass", essentially.

(note to potential "speech" jury, the above is a figure of said speech)



Someone else already demolished your facile arguments about straw purchases in Chicago, so I'll just touch on this part of it:

So go outside of Chicago & cook co to buy guns, it's a workable strategy to curb illicit sales within the city.

See, this is where you're wrong James. Again. A judge found that it was NOT a "workable strategy". Part of a strategy being "workable" is that strategy being ALLOWED. The judge found that such a strategy was not ALLOWED.

The point is that Watts, presumably Bloomberg, and of course their sycophants, were DISAPPOINTED with the judges ruling which prevented an anti-gun anti-second amendment "strategy" from being implemented.

Disappointed, because they're anti-gun and anti-second amendment.

Shannon watts lied.

[jimmy the one]

39. mean tweets

beevul: Its out there {the supposed link to Shannon watts mean tweet}. If I remember right, this is one she deleted almost immediately, like so many other 'tell' tweets shes made.

This is laughable & pathetic at the same time, even for beevul. In other words, beevul has NO proof that Shannon watts tweeted that 'MikeBloomberg and I want guns gone. Period.'
Beevul hasn't even the sense to see that it's far more likely a gunnut plant, so what does beevul do but say she 'deleted almost immediately'.

I suspect what happened, is that Shannon watts tweeted she was blocked by nra, using her personal tweet name, which was then replied to by angry & sick gunnuts, which were then copied & backpasted by Shannon, to expose the threats & insults made by those angry tweeting gunnuts:

When Shannon Watts, the founder of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, was blocked by the NRA on Twitter yesterday, she tweeted it. It shall come as a surprise to no one ever that that was met with a slew of vicious misogynistic remarks by NRA supporters.
The mother of 5 frightens them that much. She’s a beautiful and intelligent woman, so naturally, she’s a threat.
Naturally, that innocuous {Shannon watts} tweet became a platform to attack the Gun Sense advocate by NRA supporters. The hashtag #ImBlockedByShannonWatts started trending on Twitter.​ The alleged human responsible for creating that hashtag is none other than Julie Golob, world shooting champion and author of the book “Shooting While Pregnant.” ​No, really.
So Ms. Watts is retweeting some vulgar responses to her one tweet.
http://www.alan.com/2014/12/27/nra-supporters-launch-vicious-misogynistic-twitter-attack-on-gun-reform-leader/#



Note readers above (& apologies for the vulgar content), that while Shannon appears to be the tweet sender, she is reposting 'mean tweets' from angry gunnuts; These are in the same format as the alleged Shannon tweet which beevul posted.
And, I suspect, the 'tweet' beevul contends comes from Shannon watts, might've come from an angry gunnut & would be included in the full list which is excerpted above. (I don't tweet so I am unfamiliar with what hashtag means, & who is actual tweeter).
Note to beevul, see the links I provided? and the sources? learn, beevul, learn.

[beevul]

38. Your arms must hurt from that stretching.

What appears to've happened, is that Shannon was reposting tweets written about 'her', rec'd from angry gunnuts. So some gunnut appears to've made the remark that 'Bloomberg & I want guns gone. Period.', and Shannon was simply reposting it in a blog of sorts:

"'Bloomberg & I want guns gone. Period.'" Said no "gun nut", ever.


Furthermore, theres nothing, I mean NOTHING, at your link, that relates to her tweet in any way shape size or form.

What your doing, and doing poorly I might add, is this:

"Hey, LOOK OVER THERE!!"

Hardly original. Or effective.

[Straw Man]

17. I'm tempted to alert on this one ...

People like you, make me sick.

... just for the comma use.

[Eleanors38]

22. Might be the only chance of hiding these remarks.

[GGJohn]

12. (Sigh) James, James, James.

What makes you think the FBI can't investigate them now?
And what reason would the FBI have for investigating the NRA?
Being too effective?

[Eleanors38]

7. Significant gun-control boil rising on the butt of CFAP. I'm pretty sure this has something

to do with their control policies. I would be more comfortable with BATFE being disbanded.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

42. Can you name a government agency that has ever lost funding and been closed or shutdown? n/t

[Eleanors38]

43. Nah, but the mental exercise and star wishing is good for the soul.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

44. I think the last time in the US a government organization gave up the ghost was...

...November 25, 1783. They went back to England.

[misterhighwasted]

29. I suppose it would be easier to privatize for profit if it were merged into one.

Be a lot quicker to defund, demean, & dismantle & move into a private corp owned entity.
Isn't that how they do it?