Another kid with a handgun shoots 4 at Ohio school

[Starboard Tack]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-27/ohio-school-shooting/53267688/1?csp=34news

One dead, 3 wounded.
Wonder where he got that gun from.

[ileus]

1. My guess he didn't fill out a 4473.

[Starboard Tack]

2. I don't know nor care what a 4473 is

but he did kill with a handgun, which he acquired from somewhere. Obviously, an easy thing to do without filling any forms.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

3. Maybe we should bag the paperwork? n/t

[Starboard Tack]

16. What's the point of it if there is no accountability?

In a responsible society, the gun would be traceable and if it isn't reported stolen or sold, then the registered owner should be accountable. Seems to me that there is a widespread lack of personal responsibility in the world of handguns.

[PavePusher]

21. It most likely is traceable.

Perhaps you should give the police a few days to do their job.

[Starboard Tack]

24. Absolutely!

[jeepnstein]

30. But the time to gin up moral outrage is now!

I predict we'll find that the kid had been planning this act for a while. That he acquired the firearms well in advance. And that his family members all knew he was deeply disturbed. Someone is going to be in extremely hot water for arming this child.

We talked about this briefly at our meeting detailing the new firearms qualification standards for Ohio peace officers. Again it would seem the active shooter folded as soon as he was faced with a bit of opposition. It seems that a football coach chased him out of the building. I really wish I understood what is driving kids to do things like this. It's more than just having a gun because they were far more widely available when I was in high school.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. Instant gratification much?

The police probably will trace it. It takes time.

[Starboard Tack]

50. Why would it take time?

Each firearm has a number. Should be able to punch that number in a computer and come up with reg'd owner and location. Sounds like a failed system, which really means no system. That's why I'm against gun control, because it's a sham and a pointless waste of taxpayers' money. If a product is legal, it should be legal for everyone (adults, at least). Otherwise, ban it completely, but that's another discussion.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. We have laws that explicitly forbid a centralized database.

The interesting part is, the system CAN track even private transfers. Go to the original point of sale, find out who it was sold to. Interview that person as a suspect in the crime, and work your way forward till you find the culprit, or the point where the gun crossed into the black market.

Many straw purchasers have been caught in this manner.

[Starboard Tack]

54. We don't have a federal centralized database for motor vehicles

but it probably takes less than a minute to come up with a registered owner. That vehicle kills someone and the owner has some serious explaining to do, unless it was already reported stolen. Why are gun regs. different?

[ManiacJoe]

55. Simple. Guns are not taxed on a yearly basis.

The primary purpose of vehicle registration is for revenue generation.

[Starboard Tack]

56. Good point. Maybe that's the answer.

Not necessarily taxing, but confirming registration details, the same way the Coast Guard does with documented vessels.

[AtheistCrusader]

58. I really wish we could do something with Registration.

Hell, I want to be able to vote electronically with a digital certificate, and be able to VERIFY my vote securely later on.

I'd like a lot of things, but to be honest, at the end of the day, it isn't the Government... It's the people.

[Starboard Tack]

59. Of course it's the people. I agree.

But that's why we have government, to govern the people, for the people.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. 'by the people'.

As long as that component exists, it's not going to be any more enlightented than the general populace.

[one-eyed fat man]

65. I bet you just love trafiic light cameras

Someone takes a picture of your license plate running a red light, you get the fine and the points.
The car was registered to you, Who gives a fuck who was driving it? Doesn't matter if it was your wife's cousin when she visited last Groundhog Day, or some thug who stole it and was fleeing a felony.

Nice that they place the burden of proof on you.

But then you are big fan boy of the "best" of the Patriot Act too.

We don't need no steenkin' warrants!

[Starboard Tack]

66. Good morning Brewster! Rough night?

No, actually, I don't like traffic light cameras, or traffic lights, or even traffic. But your point reminds me of a nice photo I received in the mail a few years ago of my daughter and her boyfriend going through a red light in my car. A very clear pic of the boyfriend behind the wheel. So I had no problem figuring out who should write the check. I don't like living in a world full of surveillance cameras, but thankfully, they only shoot pictures. So, I'll take them over people shooting guns in the street.
I hate the Patriot Act, but I don't hate all those who support it or have signed off on it, lite our president, whom I support 100%.

As an aside, is it a custom in your part of the world to have family come visit on Groundhog Day? Is it a big event?

[SteveW]

4. Well, it was the so-called Brady Bill...

gun-control legislation and all.

BTW, you mention "another kid with a handgun shoots 4 at Ohio School." This implies there were others. Which are those?

[DonP]

5. "I don't know nor care what a 4473 is"

Ah, ignorance and apathy at work, side by side

No wonder gun control has become more of a punch line than any kind of effective movement.

[Starboard Tack]

13. Why would I care?

I'm not interested in gun control or applying for anything connected to a gun. If I were, I would be informed.

[jeepnstein]

31. Then why are you even here?

If you have no desire to be informed of the very real and important issues surrounding this topic you are just making lots of noise.

[cleanhippie]

34. To sling shit and start fires, thats why.

Notice the passive-aggressive bullshit too.

[Starboard Tack]

67. Why am I here? Good question

Not to make noise, that's for sure. There's plenty of noise to go around already. No, I'm here to explain how I see the world and to point out the absurdity of carrying weapons around. I want people to control themselves rather than leave it to the government to control them.

[Glassunion]

6. I wonder where he got the gun as well.

Do you know?

[shadowrider]

7. Did you jump up and down with glee when you found out about this

so you could immediately jump on it for anti-gun purposes?

Just curious.

[Starboard Tack]

9. Why would I do that? I'm not anti-gun and rarely post news items about guns.

But I am anti-asshole and I see a lot of assholes in stories like this.
Teachers who do nothing when they witness bullying. Parents who do nothing when they know their kid is either a bully, hangs out with a bully, or is a victim of a bully.
And the super asshole of the day who made a gun available to this kid.
Then there are the asshole legislators and their pimps who promote guns as conflict resolvers.
I hope you aren't jumping up and down because another handgun was used for it's intended purpose, killing an oppressor. Or maybe you'd advocate all high school kids being armed, to prepare them for college.

[shadowrider]

11. On the contrary. See my post below.

Killing an oppressor? Based on what? Statements the kid was bullied? Was he? Who knows until facts come out. No, I'm not jumping up and down. An innocent child lost his life. Why would I celebrate that?

[Starboard Tack]

15. We don't know until the facts come out.

But we're still talking about it. So, let's hypothesize for a moment and run with what may well be the facts.
Kid gets bullied, probably by the dead kid and his friends. Kid used to be part of the group according to one of the friends. Maybe the victim was not so innocent.

He said his group was friends with the shooter through middle school, but in high school the shooter went his separate way.

Russell, he said, had recently started dating the shooter's ex-girlfriend, who is home schooled.

I went through a very similar scenario when my daughter was in HS. One of her male friends was ostracized after being held back a year in middle school. Starting killing small animals, threatened several people, including my ex. He begged for help, but his parents were in denial. My daughter and her girlfriend took him to the ER as he was suicidal. They wouldn't admit him without his parents' permission, which they refused. My ex and I met with the HS principal and student counselor who promised to monitor, but could do little else. Finally, the kid dialed 911 from a payphone at school, declaring he was "going Columbine", which was a recent event at the time.
Fortunately, he made it through those times and so did the rest of us, but no thanks to many who should have been more vigilant, especially his father who kept handguns around the house.

[shadowrider]

17. You're simply guessing a guess to fit your agenda

Wait until facts come out, wouldya?

[ellisonz]

18. The fact is that a gun was used as a weapon to carry out...

...an attack on innocent people. There is no denying that - we know this for sure, we also know that the user was of course not legally in possession of such items. It's really not that complex.

[shadowrider]

19. I'm not denying that and, since hell has frozen over

I actually agree with what you said.

[ellisonz]

20. We also probably both agree...

...that incidents like this happen for a myriad of reasons, so why not address all causes? Every time something like this happens, the gun loving crowd says we'll we could have a better mental health system, no one denies that, but the reality in all of these cases is that either deficient gun laws or irresponsible owners play a role. Why not address this issue? Why all the apologetics?

[shadowrider]

28. Gun laws are in place. It looks to me

with no proof, simply conjecture, an irresponsible owner is at fault.

[Doctor_J]

72. Actually from what I have read,

there is no law in OH to punish the owner, or whoever gave the shooter the gun. So as in most states with reactionary governors, the laws are woefully inadequate. In this case, the NRA's catch-all solution of "just enforce the laws we have" will come up short.

[gejohnston]

75. no one gave him the gun,

he stole it. So what if OH has not such law, it is against federal law. Minor in possession is a federal crime, selling or giving anyone under the age of 18 is a federal crime.
That is why ATF showed up, because a federal crime has been committed.
If Ceasefire Oregon (Oregon residents) is giving out gift cards for your gun, and you (a resident of any other state) take your gun for your Wal Mart gift card, you also committed a federal felony.
Before pissing and moaning about lax gun laws, how about actually looking up what current federal laws are?

[oneshooter]

76. Probably because it would require research, and he doesn't want to know.

It is easier to rant and rave without facts.

[Starboard Tack]

23. What agenda? To address bullying?

I don't have an agenda apart from trying to live a decent life and teach by example.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. re: "...to prepare them for college."

My experience: By the time I got to college I had qualified at sharpshooter with the M1. When I was a freshman in college I joined the rifle team and made both Varsity and ROTC rifle teams all four years.

[shadowrider]

8. My sincere condolences to the victim, his family and friends

[Starboard Tack]

10. Why? You don't know them.

They might be to blame. Story says the shooter was bullied. Bullies get support from their friends and family. Maybe not in this case, but maybe so. I wouldn't be so ready to hand out gratuitous condolences.
Condolences don't help. Lessons learned help.

[shadowrider]

12. Condolences are ALWAYS appropriate. No, I didn't know them

but they are grieving, and they DO have my condolences.

[blue neen]

29. A little off topic here, but...

please reconsider your "definition" of gun control at the end of your posts.

For the record, we are gun owners in this home. My husband is an avid sportsman. I don't know enough about guns and during his retirement we're going to spend some time on that.

I had a very close family member who was raped. I won't go into any detail about it, but there is no way she could have reached for a gun at any time.

Your "definition", which I'm sure is well-meant, is actually just causing some people here consternation about very painful episodes in their lives.

I know you mean no disrespect and am quite sure that you don't actually want to turn people away from what you believe in.

Thanks for listening.

[Doctor_J]

71. The gunsters always accuse us of hyperbole, then post sig lines like that

classic projection.

[Clames]

78. Talk about hypocricy...

...I think i'll borrow his sig quote and give you something else to complain about.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. I don't care if the dead kid was an asshole and a bully.

He didn't deserve to die.

[Starboard Tack]

48. Of course he didn't deserve to die.

Nobody "deserves" to die at the hands of another, except when there is no other option, as in an "it's either him or me" situation.
But you should care if the kid was a bully, because if that was the root cause, it would be foolish to ignore it. Bullying is a massive problem among young people, always has been, but a progressive society monitors such behavior and takes action before tragedies of this nature happen.
My guess is that several adults were asleep at the wheel on this one.

[rl6214]

22. My guess is that he stole it

Whether from a relative or an outright robbery or burglary.

[Logical]

25. Guns do make it easy to kill people.

[GreenStormCloud]

27. They also make it easy to defend yourself against violent criminals. N/T

[Hoyt]

37. And let's not forget those who carry for intimidation.

I'd post some photos from right wing gun web sites, but don't like going to such sites if I can avoid it.

[gejohnston]

38. why do you go there to begin with?

You can avoid them by simply not clicking on links or typing in their urls

[Hoyt]

39. Only go there when you guys deny it happens. The proof is there -- yahoos prancing around with guns.

You know it's true too. But the gun culture members deny it.

[PavePusher]

40. Cite, please. n/t

[ManiacJoe]

44. No one denies it. We just understand the percentages.

[Hoyt]

47. I do too. There are more right wing owners/carriers than Democrats.

And the right wingers continue to use guns for intimidation as in the past. And there are a lot of them.

So to make you guys happy, society has to allow right wingers to tote and intimidate. Doesn't work for me or society.

[ManiacJoe]

53. Check your local laws.

Intimidation is probably illegal.

Feel free to exercise your right to tote; it applies to you, too, assuming you are not legally disqualified.

[ileus]

60. we need to work to change that...even the odds.

[Logical]

52. LOL....how is that different than what I said?

[pipoman]

61. Defending one's self with a gun

certainly doesn't always require killing anyone...in fact, I would bet, more people use guns defensively without firing a shot than those who actually kill someone.

[Logical]

63. No, guns work because they make killing easy! Get t now?

[Atypical Liberal]

26. Another bullying victim lashes out.

Very touching interview of a young lady who befriended the shooter:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/27/justice/ohio-shooting-suspect/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

I guess the good news out of this is that since the shooter survived hopefully there can be some valuable insight learned from his motives.

But I think it's becoming pretty clear that the guy had a difficult home life and was picked on at school.

I've long contended that victims of bullying are all scarred. Some eventually break under the strain. When they do, they go one of two ways - they either internalize the pain and kill themselves, or they externalize it and lash out at those they perceive as their tormentors. Sometimes they do both.

It's sad.

This guy has a very insightful article about this kind of thing:

http://robertringer.com/2007/12/the-cho-factor-part-i-let-the-discussion-begin/

I'm not too keen on this fellow's political views, but the article on bullying sounds right to me.

[jeepnstein]

32. I'm not going to say it was bullying.

Let's let all the facts get out there first. The kid may very well have been unhappy. And other kids may have distanced themselves from him because of his personal situation. But that's a far cry from bullying. Nothing justifies murder so even if he was having trouble with some other kids he's still to blame for what happened. It's too soon to start blaming the victims for their murder.

Kids, if they can't get your attention one way, they'll get it another.

[jpak]

33. Guns are the answer!

not

yup

[cleanhippie]

35. Wait, guns ARE the answer, not "yup"?

A change of heart, jpak?

[rl6214]

36. Very insightful of you

[dmallind]

41. Well he'd have to do this another 40 odd times

if he wanted to match the largest school massacre, which involved nobody shot at all. Seems we have quite a few "answers" to mass murders.

[oneshooter]

49. jpak has no answers!!!!

truth

YUP!

[ellisonz]

42. Third Student Dies After Shooting at High School in Ohio

By SABRINA TAVERNISE and JENNIFER PRESTON
Published: February 28, 2012

CHARDON, Ohio — Two more students have died after a shooting rampage on Monday at a high school outside of Cleveland that left three other students hospitalized with serious injuries, the authorities said Tuesday.

One student, Russell King Jr., 17, died early Tuesday morning of gunshot wounds. Demetrius Hewlin also died on Tuesday. Another student, Daniel Parmertor, 16, died on Monday.

The students were seated at the same table in the cafeteria at 7:30 a.m. when a teenage boy at the next table pulled out a .22-caliber gun from a bag and began firing, witnesses said.

Tim McKenna, chief of police in Chardon, said the suspect in the case would be in court for a hearing Tuesday afternoon. He said he would not identify the suspect because he is a juvenile. The police did not offer any information about a possible motive or about where the suspect obtained a gun.

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/us/victim-in-ohio-school-shooting-declared-brain-dead.html?_r=1&hp

[montanto]

43. I wonder where he got his mental health care from, but

that's just me. Clearly this kid is a victim too. I know it's hard to hear that, and of course the crime is heinous, no excuses, but someone had to have an idea that this kid was in trouble, and our system doesn't support the people who are in a position to know such stuff, so we just let it happen. So sad all around.

[Starboard Tack]

57. I agree. A lot of failing around him and the other kids.

[pipoman]

62. I strongly believe

that if, as the freakonomics dude says, that the current trend of reduced violent crime is due to the legalization of abortion, free and available mental health services with access to long and short term voluntary confinement and addiction services, the results would be equally as impactful.

[Doctor_J]

68. His freedom to own guns is more important than the safety of the kids at school

Teh NRA told me so.

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. "Teh NRA told me so." Suuure it did.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on...

[Doctor_J]

73. Indeed. That august organization would NEVER invoke

Franklin's famous quote about trading liberty for security. And ANY law which would have made it more difficult for this student to obtain the weapon would have been an infringement on somone's freedom. That's an unfortunate side effect of every law we have. The traffic laws in my town are a curb on my freedom to drive 80 mph down main street. Others forbid me from dumping my garbage or urinating on that same main street. The big blue sign with a wheelchair on it, right in front of my favorite restaurant, has completely stripped me of my freedom to park there. Since only couple percent of the populace qualify for handicapped parking, a full 98% of the US - about 305 million people - have had their right to that parking place taken away.

The NRA's propaganda dispatches sometimes fail the laugh test

[gejohnston]

74. what part of

he stole it don't you get? Do you think he violated a federal law and bought it from Wal Mart? Ohio probably does have such laws, but the average anti is totally ignorant of current laws. It is like the stupid Brady score card. No state should have less than four points. They give two points for requiring dealers to keep records and two points for police being able to inspect those records. Only a few states have state laws requiring it. But guess what, it has been federal law since at least 1968.

[friendly_iconoclast]

77. Are you going to actually *cite* any of these alleged "propaganda dispatches"?

Or is this another one of those publications from the College of It Stands To Reason beloved by you folk?

[DonP]

70. I'm sorry, the voices in your head are not a reliable source of information

No matter how sincere they sound to you or any of your other personalities.