Misconceptions

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

From a post in LBN: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142926347#post6

The bullet that comes out of the barrel of an AR-15 style semi-automatic rifle can easily penetrate the target -- the intruder or whatever person you are using deadly force to defend yourself or others from.
But it also will go through the wall behind that person, and potentially through that room and into the next wall. That power and accuracy are useful for military purposes, which is obviously what they were designed for. But it's far more power than should ever be in the hands of the average civilian.

This is an oversimplification. Typical AR-15 ammo is available in both full metal jacket (FMJ) and hollow point. FMJ is mandated by the military since hollow point and jacketless ammo is contrary to international treaties governing war. FMJ will tend to penetrate more than it will deform and mushroom.
The terminal effects of a bullet depend on a number of things. Hunting and self-defense often dictate against using an FMJ due to the chances of overpenetration. Having a bullet deform on impact causes a greater amount of its kinetic energy to transferred to the target with less chance of the bullet passing through and causing further injury. Consequently the absorption of that energy tends to cause more damage or greater level of injury.
As for the "power" of AR-15 ammo being far beyond what should be available to a civilian, .30-06 ammo has been a standard hunting round for years. This bullet has approximately double the muzzle energy of .223 ammo used in the AR.

A person wielding an AR-15 has a range beyond 300 yards. For an officer armed with a 9 mm pistol, hitting a target beyond 50 yards is going to be difficult, even for the most accomplished marksman.

I've not heard of any murders involving an AR-15 other than the 2017 Las Vegas shooting that involved a distance of more than maybe 10 yards. This has to do rifle vs pistol characteristics. Almost all rifles have a greater accurate range than any pistols.

The prevalence of these weapons means police sometimes are overmatched, as we saw with the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas, last month. In a situation where you have small children near the shooter, you want to remove the threat as quickly as possible.

Many police departments issue AR-15 type rifles to their officers, these are usually secured in their vehicles. I saw video of LEOs at the Uvalde scene carrying AR-15 type rifles doing what appears to be crowd control. The rank and file on the scene were NOT outmatched in weapons and maybe were even well trained. Perhaps it was their commanders and chiefs that were overmatched and untrained. It is often said that your main weapon in tactical situations is your smarts, your gray matter. Whatever official, uniformed or civilian, who ordered the team to stand down for over 30 minutes, has a lot to explain.
That scum killed 21 people while the police were held back. Did he need an AR-15 to kill those children and teachers? No. The scum who shot 50 people, killing 33, at Virginia Tech 15 years ago had handguns typical of what law enforcement would carry.

I'm really not thinking a ban on AR sales will do anything. This shouldn't be about if I NEED an AR-15. It should be about the mass murders and it has been demonstrated that they certainly don't NEED one.

[Frasier Balzov]

1. Any progress achieved is symbolic only.

Nothing will turn the tide of actual harm until a courageous few are ready to de-segregate the lunch counter.

[AndyS]

2. Thank you soooo much for gun'splaining that to us.

FYI, if a .223 hollow point hits a sheet rock wall it becomes a FMJ. Gypsum fills the little hole and it won't expand. Using an AR inside a home is just, well, stupid.

There, I just gun'splained it back at ya'.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

5. Thanks, are you sure? n/t

[AndyS]

8. I assume you're talking about the gypsum . . .

Yes, I'm sure from personal experience. The same is true for a lot of other hollow point ammunition. Using a sand dune for a back stop will yield the same result. I've dug in-tact slugs out of a sand backstop.

Now if you are referring to using an AR inside a house, well yeah, that's just plain stupid. Unless you're doing house to house door to door close combat which is what the gun is designed for.

[krispos42]

27. ...

https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls.310/

[AndyS]

28. Thanks for backing me up on this.

Yes this was a FMJ that penetrated 4 walls even though it did so going sideways. And because a hollopoint behaves like a FMJ after it goes through he first wall I'd expect it to penetrate at least 4 walls as well.

It is truely stupid to think this is a good home defense weapon.

[krispos42]

29. It's good.... sometimes

Obviously it depends on circumstances. Big house, lots of property... Good.

I live in a small duplex. I have handguns, not long guns, because the longest possible shot I could need to take is 8-9 yards.

I use ammo that has red polymer in the hollowpoint, so expansion is guaranteed. But I still have to worry about penetrating the dividing wall between the units.

The downside is that I have handguns instead of rifles, and we both know that school shooting hysteria aside, handguns have 19x the body count per year.

I have no objection to owning an AR-15, I simply have no need to do so.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

3. Obscene.

[Jamesm9164]

4. What is your point?

We can bog down into "misconceptions" or we can deal with the problem - fucking guns.

I simply do not care what kind, what caliber, whether they are "assault weapons", do they have a bayonet lug, etc.

I just want the fucking deaths to stop!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

6. Excellent point!

Much time and effort is misspent trying vilify AR-15s, assault weapons and other guns. The problem is the criminals. I have elsewhere suggested that a starting place would be universal background checks. I guess that wouldn't have stopped the shooter in Uvalde but many people agree that UBCs are a good idea.

I haven't studied the idea but raising the age for gun purchases is another idea that, at least on the surface, I don't have a problem with.

[PTWB]

7. You'd be shocked how many people here...

Preach that ARs are poor choices for hunting and home defense when, in fact, they’re effective options for both.

An AR loaded with dedicated defense ammunition will penetrate far less than their go-to suggestion of “just use a 12 gauge shotgun” loaded with 00 buckshot or slugs.

Highly frangible .223 hollow points fragment upon hitting even light material like drywall, reducing their already low mass even further, and minimizing over penetration.

[AndyS]

9. Not drywall, see above. nt

[krispos42]

32. Drywall won't stop it, but it's breaking up and slowing down the bullet fragments

I'd rather be hit by a slow-moving, tumbling bullet fragment than a fast-moving, tumbling bullet.

[AndyS]

33. After 4 walls.

I repeat, using a .223 inside a house is stupid.

[krispos42]

34. I generally agree

I really wish we had something like phasers from "Star Trek". Civilian versions would only go as high as "heavy stun", which instantly knocks people out cold for an hour or more. There wouldn't be a need for lethal force to stop somebody, and you would have the range and repeating shots of a handgun or rifle.

[yagotme]

35. .45 ACP, lead (no jacket) semi wadcutter,

will go through 3 lathe/plaster walls. Gypsum is a poor stopper for anything, unless it's a pellet gun, or similar.

[AndyS]

37. Then I modify my atatemenbt.

Owning a gun for self defense is stupid. Statistically speaking. Also thinking human speaking.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. Well, I don't advocate using a long gun for home defense.

Personal opinion.

[PTWB]

15. What do you prefer?

An AR is hard to beat for accuracy and lethality.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

22. Actually, I prefer not to own a gun.

I like the RKBA but pistol practice is to expensive for me and I don't have the time for the type of training I would feel comfortable with.

[PTWB]

25. I was just wondering.

You mentioned you don’t advocate for long guns for home defense, so I wondered what you preferred (or advocated for) for home defense.

An AR with a common 16” barrel is handy to wield, accurate to shoot, and exceptionally lethal. The main drawback to using an AR or other long gun for home defense is the potential for hearing damage, but a suppressor greatly mitigates that potential (at the cost of some portability).

I think for most home defenders a 9mm pistol with a weapon mounted light is hard to beat. But it does have the drawback of significantly more over penetration than from an AR chambered in .223 and loaded with highly frangible bullets.

Any home defender must be proficient with the weapon platform they choose to utilize, and is ultimately responsible for being able to identify their target (hence the weapon mounted light), and knowing the hazards of what may be behind their target.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

26. If I had the time and money...

...I would try to master a 9mm or maybe a revolver. One rule...use a gun that works every time. I did enjoy competing on the rifle team.

[AndyS]

10. Not in Ufalde, the Tusla hospital, Buffolo NY and so many other places where thev

first criminal act was the murder of a LOT of people. Law abiding citizens right up to that point.

I, for one, am fucking sick of reading that the gun was purchased legally . . .

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

11. Which makes me wonder if...

...the days or even hours someone has elapsed as an adult at 18 should be valid for the purpose of a BGC.

[AndyS]

13. Ya' still don't get it do ya'? It's not the gun? Not the abundance of guns?

Not the availability of guns? It's the background check? Really? Keep posting, the rest of the sane world needs to hear from you . . .

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. Politically and physically...

...there are 2 groups of things, those that I change relatively soon and those that I can't. The availability of guns, 3D printers, 80% lowers... are in the group that would are harder to change and will take longer.

Some folks call it the art of the possible. I think it's common sense.

[AndyS]

16. Everything fits into one of two groups, those that

fit in one of two groups and those that don't.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. Interesting, an ontological POV. n/t

[Jamesm9164]

17. Good to see this has decended into the abyss of shall I say, "Gun insanity".

It is the fucking guns. Period. Get rid of them and arm everyone with hammers.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. Alas, poor Thor! I knew him, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest...

Fie on't! ah fie! 'tis an unweeded garden,
That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

24. Here:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/05/opinions/guns-ar-15-uvalde-school-shooting-fanone/index.html
This is the article that the LBN OP was pointing to that is in some respects inaccurate or incomplete. For example, the CNN article mentions the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. The write states that the criminals were armed with semi-auto rifles. This is incomplete because these particular criminals were armed with semi-auto rifles that were illegally modified to full-auto.

I wonder if the folks who like what this CNN writer has to say also like that he supported and voted for trump in 2016.

[krispos42]

30. IIRC, they were semi-auto rifles

One of the rifle took a bullet to the receiver and it somehow became full auto.

[ManiacJoe]

31. Not quite.

The HK-91 was still semi-auto. All the AK rifles were illegally modified to full-auto.

[yagotme]

36. Those darn weapons of war...

"A man armed with a bow fired arrows at shoppers in a small Norwegian town Wednesday, killing five people before he was arrested, authorities said.

The police chief in the community of Kongsberg, near the capital of Oslo, said there was “a confrontation” between officers and the assailant, but he did not elaborate. Two other people were wounded and hospitalized in intensive care, including an officer who was off duty and inside the shop where the attack took place, police said."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/europe/kongsberg-norway-attack-intl/index.html

[Jamesm9164]

19. Just referring to the NRA guy who said

more folks have been ...

Let us debate the length of handles of hammers, pikes, etc. Meantime let us stop the killing with guns.

[Jamesm9164]

20. Also too, I am not sure about

the Ukranian flag icon. Me wonders.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. Handles of hammers and pikes, oh my...

Not sure what you're getting at. nra guy? Flag?